Porsche accuses Nissan GT-R of cheating the "Ring":

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

If you'd like to start another pissing contest, go right ahead. My bladder is ready.



I repeat, the Nissan beats up on the Porsche Turbo in any venue, in a bunch of magazines, by well over a second per minute. What's so hard to believe that it beats up the Turbo at the 'Ring by a similar margin? After all, that's the venue Nissan used to reach their design goal of beating up on the Turbo in the first place.

As for the GT2, everything I've read says that it's an absolute handful at the limit, and while the GT2, Z06 and ZR1 all beat the pants off the GT-R in terms of power to weight, they're also two wheel drive, and can't put the power down out of the turns the way the GT-R can.

What people have to realize...

Porsche is using an imperfect design and trying to make it perfect.

The positioning of the 911 powerplant is so outdated and is now starting to put Porsche behind the eightball.

Porsche needs to realize they need to abandon their old 911 philosophy. It is basic physics and weight dynamics. The rear engine platform is going to kill the 911, if they don't bite the bullet and change it.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by ///Mantis

a joke? you're a fucking idiot

I would be offended if your opinion meant anything. Let the big boys speak

If times ranging from 12.6 @ 111 to 11.5 @ 124 from a single source are consistent you clearly should not be posting, period. If the times and performance are so spread all over the place that Car and Driver has to stick the cars on a dyno and call up Nissan to try and figure the mess out there is something suspect going on. Please try and remove your head from the Nissan's ass, thanks.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

sticky,

You are in a minority on this one. Almost everyone else acknowledges that the GTR is quicker on the track and against rivals which are way quicker in outright acceleration. Seriously man, you need to change your opinion on this one because you are basically one man against the storm which is everyone else, and you know what happens when you piss into the wind.

The consistency that myself and hkz786 were referring to was the track performance against it's competitors, not how quick it was in the 1/4mile runs. In a way these poor results on this discipline only reinforces how incredibly good it is in the corners and under braking.

Also if the GTR can consistently exit a corner 5mph or more than cars like the 997tt or GT2, or even the ZR1, do you not think that this will have a bearing on it's speed at the end of the next straight in relation to these other cars. I have witnessed how decisive awd cars are in their advantage on exiting corners compared to rwd cars that I am in little doubt it here where the GTR is making it's difference felt. Unlike Quattro cars and 911 models the GTR doesn't suffer the understeer on entry so can match a good rwd car is this and because of it's awd chassis it can get on the power a lot sooner.

Maybe the chances of a non Nissan chassis engineer or professional racing driver getting too close to the GTR's 7:29 is highly unlikely but the same is probably true for every other car that has achieved similarly incredible times. But the bare facts are that in every independent test conducted the GTR is better than it's rivals.

Porsche have scored an own goal in my opinion. Silly move.

Being in the minority does not make someone wrong. Let us not take a mob is right mentality.

The GTR is a tremendous achievement, no doubt. That is not the issue, how can a car with the worst power to weight out of the bunch achieve lap times that a Porsche supercar does? Doesn't the time Porsche achieved with a production GTR make sense? If you look at the numbers and the specs of the GTR what Nissan claims just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Being in the minority does not make someone wrong. Let us not take a mob is right mentality.

The GTR is a tremendous achievement, no doubt. That is not the issue, how can a car with the worst power to weight out of the bunch achieve lap times that a Porsche supercar does? Doesn't the time Porsche achieved with a production GTR make sense? If you look at the numbers and the specs of the GTR what Nissan claims just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I think people are holding onto the 7:28 too tightly...let's see what autosport does.

Have no doubt the AWD system in the GTR is state of the art that could lead to better exit speeds and negate some of the power to weight ratio disadvantages.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Being in the minority does not make someone wrong. Let us not take a mob is right mentality.

The GTR is a tremendous achievement, no doubt. That is not the issue, how can a car with the worst power to weight out of the bunch achieve lap times that a Porsche supercar does? Doesn't the time Porsche achieved with a production GTR make sense? If you look at the numbers and the specs of the GTR what Nissan claims just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

That's because the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I think Footie (T bone and others) clearly pointed out why the GTR defies logic. With that said, I have to agree that a 7:2x, appears to optimistic for a truely stock car. And, a 7:5x would equally appear to be too slow.

Give the facelifted tt PDK, 20-30 more ponies, a revised PASM and a more taut suspension and the disparity will lessen greatly. The GTR may still win out, but it'll probably be a coin flip; with the power to weight ratio favoring the tt and the weight distribution and, possibly, power application favoring the GTR.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by devo

That's because the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I think Footie (T bone and others) clearly pointed out why the GTR defies logic. With that said, I have to agree that a 7:2x, appears to optimistic for a truely stock car. And, a 7:5x would equally appear to be too slow.

Give the facelifted tt PDK, 20-30 more ponies, a revised PASM and a more taut suspension and the disparity will lessen greatly. The GTR may still win out, but it'll probably be a coin flip; with the power to weight ratio favoring the tt and the weight distribution and, possibly, power application favoring the GTR.

The weight distribution can't favor the GTR as more will be hanging off the nose. Having that weight on the back of the Porsche helps with braking and helps applying power out of the turn. Why don't these advantages translate into ridiculous numbers for the 911? AWD is not the be all end all, RWD race cars usually lap quicker in competition. These are street cars, so not exactly applicable, but people are giving the GTR way too much credit.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC

What people have to realize...

Porsche is using an imperfect design and trying to make it perfect.

The positioning of the 911 powerplant is so outdated and is now starting to put Porsche behind the eightball.

Porsche needs to realize they need to abandon their old 911 philosophy. It is basic physics and weight dynamics. The rear engine platform is going to kill the 911, if they don't bite the bullet and change it.

Of course I agree on your straight technical point, but that doesn't have anything to do with business. My belief is that Porsche is pursuing a perfect product strategy at the moment - and if you doubt that, you have only to look at the fact that they make far and away more than anybody else on a per-car basis.

And oh, I personally think they're pretty much all terrific cars.

Bruce

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Of course I agree on your straight technical point, but that doesn't have anything to do with business. My belief is that Porsche is pursuing a perfect product strategy at the moment - and if you doubt that, you have only to look at the fact that they make far and away more than anybody else on a per-car basis.

And oh, I personally think they're pretty much all terrific cars.

Bruce

They do know how to milk out every last dime, better than anyone else.

The nice thing is with the diversifying they are doing maybe we will finally see Porsche take a mid engine platform past the 911 (Carrera GT doesn't count) as they will have other legs to stand on.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

The weight distribution can't favor the GTR as more will be hanging off the nose. Having that weight on the back of the Porsche helps with braking and helps applying power out of the turn. Why don't these advantages translate into ridiculous numbers for the 911? AWD is not the be all end all, RWD race cars usually lap quicker in competition. These are street cars, so not exactly applicable, but people are giving the GTR way too much credit.

Having the weight in the rear of the car has no advantage in braking other than on the straight and narrow. Are you sure you have driven a 911 in anger because on all the occasions that I have I found that a slow in approach was the only manner which worked and the thing would quickly change from understeer to oversteer in any corner when a little too much throttle was applied.

The GTR has a weight balance that is in between that of Audi quattros and the BWM M3 (i.e. 54/46). This means that the GTR will be able to brake deeper into the corner than the Porsche and with it's (generally agreed) most advanced awd in the world it can also get on the power sooner than the Porsche as well.

P.S.
RWD cars aren't quicker in competition, the truth is that AWD has an unfair advantage and were banned from every form of motorsport, with the exception of rally based forms of motorsport.

P.S.
It's not mob rules, this is not a bunch of idiots with no knowledge of the subject in question. Even if it was the facts speak for themselves, the GTR is quicker in every test that has been independently conducted, to deny this fact places you in the 'bunch of idiots' group.

i.e. Pissing in to the wind.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

Having the weight in the rear of the car has no advantage in braking other than on the straight and narrow. Are you sure you have driven a 911 in anger because on all the occasions that I have I found that a slow in approach was the only manner which worked and the thing would quickly change from understeer to oversteer in any corner when a little too much throttle was applied.

The GTR has a weight balance that is in between that of Audi quattros and the BWM M3 (i.e. 54/46). This means that the GTR will be able to brake deeper into the corner than the Porsche and with it's (generally agreed) most advanced awd in the world it can also get on the power sooner than the Porsche as well.

P.S.
RWD cars aren't quicker in competition, the truth is that AWD has an unfair advantage and were banned from every form of motorsport, with the exception of rally based forms of motorsport.

P.S.
It's not mob rules, this is not a bunch of idiots with no knowledge of the subject in question. Even if it was the facts speak for themselves, the GTR is quicker in every test that has been independently conducted, to deny this fact places you in the 'bunch of idiots' group.

i.e. Pissing in to the wind.

Footie don't start with that banned nonsense. Audi has the world convinced AWD is some unfair advantage, they were banned in rally racing, not road racing. Road racing series have strict regulations for these types of things. RWD is lighter with lower drivetrain losses, an elise would not be faster with AWD for example. The GT2 is faster RWD... lighter and more powerful. Where is the turbo's grip advantage?

I don't see any source to back up the claim that the GTR can get on the power out of a turn sooner than a 911, especially an AWD 911.

Put me into the bunch of idiots group, I am not buying what Nissan is dishing out. Porsche knows the ring unlike any manufacturer, if they say it can't be done, it can't be done.

[devo]

Originally Posted by footie

Having the weight in the rear of the car has no advantage in braking other than on the straight and narrow. Are you sure you have driven a 911 in anger because on all the occasions that I have I found that a slow in approach was the only manner which worked and the thing would quickly change from understeer to oversteer in any corner when a little too much throttle was applied.

The GTR has a weight balance that is in between that of Audi quattros and the BWM M3 (i.e. 54/46). This means that the GTR will be able to brake deeper into the corner than the Porsche and with it's (generally agreed) most advanced awd in the world it can also get on the power sooner than the Porsche as well.

P.S.
RWD cars aren't quicker in competition, the truth is that AWD has an unfair advantage and were banned from every form of motorsport, with the exception of rally based forms of motorsport.

P.S.
It's not mob rules, this is not a bunch of idiots with no knowledge of the subject in question. Even if it was the facts speak for themselves, the GTR is quicker in every test that has been independently conducted, to deny this fact places you in the 'bunch of idiots' group.

i.e. Pissing in to the wind.

Yes, the GTR is is thus far faster on the track, but in a straight line in basically any drag race other than from the dig, the 997tt just pummels that fat pig.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Footie don't start with that banned nonsense. Audi has the world convinced AWD is some unfair advantage, they were banned in rally racing, not road racing. Road racing series have strict regulations for these types of things. RWD is lighter with lower drivetrain losses, an elise would not be faster with AWD for example. The GT2 is faster RWD... lighter and more powerful. Where is the turbo's grip advantage?

I don't see any source to back up the claim that the GTR can get on the power out of a turn sooner than a 911, especially an AWD 911.

Put me into the bunch of idiots group, I am not buying what Nissan is dishing out. Porsche knows the ring unlike any manufacturer, if they say it can't be done, it can't be done.

I don't want to side track this thread into an awd vs rwd thread so I will refrain from explaining the history of awd in motorsport to another day to prove how wrong you are. And it's got nothing to do with Quattro.

You think a 911 is an easy car to drive quickly even an awd one. I ask again, have you ever driven one in anger, I have and on several occasions and I can tell you that I would have more faith and confidence planting the GTR sooner than the Porsche.

You are right in saying Porsche do know the ring as well as anyone, but as they aren't holding the title of quickest production car I would say it's sour grapes and a cheap shot. Their claim only holds water if proven true and at the minute the evidence from numerous independent sources is that the GTR is miles quicker than the 997tt and on more than 50% of the time quicker than the GT2 as well. There is no point producing figures to show that it's acceleration times are inconsistent without acknowledging that in the same tests it is proven to be quicker on the track, where I might add this discussion/debate is all about.

I like Porsche cars, hack I have owned a few but to pull a stunt like this is beneath them. It has been done because the GTR is making their own cars look decidedly expensive, something which up to now Porsche has held the title of the best value supercars but not longer.

If I could live with the firm ride I will definitely be in the market for a GTR, the thing is a legend in it's own time.

[Robin_NL]

I am as neutral as Switzerland on this matter. But one thing: The 'advantage' of 4wd in general to 2wd isn't that much. A Lotus Exige can go around a dry corner faster than a Subaru STI. GRIP is not TRACTION. In wet conditions it's another story.

Example: a few years ago at some pro WRC rallystages, DRY TARMAC. The 4wd WRC Subarus were SLOWER on some DRY tarmac stages than the(back then) FRONTWHEELDRIVEN(vomit...) Citroen driven bij 'world champion' Sebastien Loeb(F). So where is the AWD advantage in dry(tarmac) conditions?

The fastest car ever on the Nordschleife was a Porsche RWD(LOL) 956(groundeffect matters!) in 1983(Stefan Bellof, RIP) And also a street legal Radical driven bij felow Dutchman Michael Vergers had rwd. Was a bloody tad faster than the GT2/GTR LOL, Anyway the ZR1 Vette and Viper ACR are faster than both GT2/GTR.

So what's the point anyway?

Der Stefan:

[Robin_NL]

Come to think of it, another example. Fifth Gear UK carprogramme(With Tiff, Jason, Vicky) tested (almost a year ago?)the E92 335i vs the Audi S5 on a UK track. 306BHP(335i) vs 354BHP QUATTRO (S5).

Vicky Butler-Henderson drove them both. 335i was half a second faster on the track.

(Youtube footage is somewhere on the internet..dunno where sorry)

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

I am as neutral as Switzerland on this matter. But one thing: The 'advantage' of 4wd in general to 2wd isn't that much...

Without negating your general point, the issue here is specific. The GT-R performs so well at the 'Ring compared to some of its high-horsepower competition in part because they are traction-limited coming out of the turns. It's a different story with lower power where you can get on it early and stay on it.

Bruce

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Without negating your general point, the issue here is specific. The GT-R performs so well at the 'Ring compared to some of its high-horsepower competition in part because they are traction-limited coming out of the turns. It's a different story with lower power where you can get on it early and stay on it.

Bruce

Ever been to the Nordschleife? And driven there?

[footie]

Robin Hood,

You can not look at a single dry tarmac stage/rally and try to use this example as a generalised statement that awd is slower in the right conditions (i.e. dry surface), for a start the example you have given is a Subaru which everyone knows pushes the nose unless it's thrown into a corner (slippy surface) like and that doesn't make for either a quick enter speed or exit speed. And secondly the Citroen was also fwd instead of rwd so you were using the wrong form of driven wheels to start with.

Next to use race cars as example of the quickest cars on the circuit is again defeating the point, these cars use special rubber, ground effect, down force, etc to achieve the desired results. The cars in question (GTR, 997tt and GT2) all have little or no down force worth speaking of, so all that is helping them get from A to B is the chassis, brakes, drivetrain and engine, oh and of course the person behind the wheel.

There is a few things which can help your lap time on the ring, weight, balance, grip, braking ability, both stopping power and balance under braking, corner entry speed (part to do with braking balance and weight balance) and exit speed (ability to get on to the throttle as soon as possible), oh about of course acceleration between the corners. The Radical can master all of the above in spades and that is why it's soooo quick around the ring, but for the rest it's usually a compromise and the car with the least amount of compromises usually wins.

The independent tests have shown the GTR to be less compromised on the track than either the GT2 or 997tt, and the reason we know this is with the other results, namely acceleration figures, here both the 997tt and GT2 are quicker.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

Come to think of it, another example. Fifth Gear UK carprogramme(With Tiff, Jason, Vicky) tested (almost a year ago?)the E92 335i vs the Audi S5 on a UK track. 306BHP(335i) vs 354BHP QUATTRO (S5).

Vicky Butler-Henderson drove them both. 335i was half a second faster on the track.

(Youtube footage is somewhere on the internet..dunno where sorry)

Also please don't sideline the thread into an Audi Quattro vs BMW thread, to base an opinion on a entertainment TV programme as factual is silly, apart from anything the gap wasn't half a second it was much less and there is enough evidence from professional sources (Sport Auto) to prove that on a tight circuit (Hockenheim) the S5 was almost a second quicker, but each produced identical times on the ring.

P.S.
You may be the only person here to believe that the 335i only produces 306hp.

[Robin_NL]

Footie,

I wanted to state that 4wd doesn't always have an advantage over 2wd, hence my 2 examples. The GTR is a great car but with 1700kgs a tad heavy, and that's why a E92 M3 is faster on the Nordschleife than a E60 M5 with about 90 hp less and a bit lighter. The GTR with 1700kgh and 480BHP + semislick tyres can't do a 7:29 at the NS in my book, a 7:45 would be more like it. Hence the REARWHEELDRIVEN ZR1 and VIPER ACR with sufficient HP and a bit lighter, where is their 'only 2wd disadvantage'?

The Nissan tested had more than 480BHP maybe 550/600, I guess.

And no I'm not a Porschefreak, au contraire....


My ex 335i produced about 320BHP.


Sorry folks for having taken the 335ivs S5 example just because they are roadgoing streetcars on a circuit just like the GT2/GTR. ROFLOL@ Footie

It was just a fine example....

People NEED to see/drive the NS in person. Then they change their point of view drastically


At Hockenheim, Sportauto tested the 335i E92: 1min18s The Audi S5: 1min18.8s....
Footie, please don't treat me like a schoolboy, thank you.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

Ever been to the Nordschleife? And driven there?

No. No.

And your point is?

Are the turns somehow different at the 'Ring?

How about this:

One of the key reasons the Nissan performs so well on track in direct comparison tests, even when in those same tests the car is outgunned in a straight line by the others, is the fact that you can get on the power earlier in that car when coming out of corners.

Bruce

[Robin_NL]

ZR1 and ACR are rwd. At the Ring. Faster than the HEAVY 4wd GTR.

I don't think the GTR is THAT GOOD. I think the Porsches are THAT BAD.

[footie]

I think it is well know that the GTR has more than the quoted 480ps, I even gave a statement from a sales person at a dealers who openly admits as much. It has also been tested in the US and depending how much draintrain lose figures you place on it ranges from a little over 500hp to close to 540hp, I reckon it's somewhere in between that.

Either way, what you are getting for your money is a car which is quicker any almost anything else and in my opinion is way quicker than a 997tt on the track at least.