E85 M3 Advanced Fuel Dynamics

[rif75]

Hello every one

Considering to buy this flexfuel kit for my NA M3. A lot of SC here but for NA, could we use it with a high octane gas tune like BPM100? The e85 is supose to have more than that so why we should use it with a 93 octane rating? If not, what tuner is actually doing e85 tune solution for this exept Gitanni?

Thanks

[codinge90]

Originally Posted by rif75

Hello every one

Considering to buy this flexfuel kit for my NA M3. A lot of SC here but for NA, could we use it with a high octane gas tune like BPM100? The e85 is supose to have more than that so why we should use it with a 93 octane rating? If not, what tuner is actually doing e85 tune solution for this exept Gitanni?

Thanks

From my understanding the only tuners who have e85 tunes for the s65 are RK Tunes on the east coast and Gintani here in Southern California. I've been running he gintani e85 tune for a few months now and definitely a difference in power. The AFD kit is also a good alternative if you don't want to run e85 100% of the time which is a bit of a pain since I literally get 7-8 mpg lol

[rif75]

Thanks. When I go on their website, they are only speaking about gas tune, nothing about e85.

[8500RPM]

Originally Posted by rif75

Hello every one

Considering to buy this flexfuel kit for my NA M3. A lot of SC here but for NA, could we use it with a high octane gas tune like BPM100? The e85 is supose to have more than that so why we should use it with a 93 octane rating? If not, what tuner is actually doing e85 tune solution for this exept Gitanni?

Thanks

I've been asking this exact question for a while now but still haven't gotten any straight answers. I have an EFlexFuel kit on the way to me and I want to use that in conjunction with a high octane gas tune to give me the best of both worlds.

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by 8500RPM

I've been asking this exact question for a while now but still haven't gotten any straight answers. I have an EFlexFuel kit on the way to me and I want to use that in conjunction with a high octane gas tune to give me the best of both worlds.

It doesn’t make sense to the only thing that sensor does it’s tell the computer to increase the pulse width of the injector to make up for the lean condition. It does not increase timing or lower it. Running high octane gas that is not oxygenated wouldn’t make sense with this sensor.

[8500RPM]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

It doesn’t make sense to the only thing that sensor does it’s tell the computer to increase the pulse width of the injector to make up for the lean condition. It does not increase timing or lower it. Running high octane gas that is not oxygenated wouldn’t make sense with this sensor.

You're missing the point. My and the other guy want to run a Race Gas tune on E85 with the help of the flex fuel kits. The Race gas tune will give the car the increased timing it needs to make more power while the flex fuel kit supplies the high octane E85 to prevent detonation. We are not trying to run race gas with a race gas tune. We just want the Race Gas tunes higher timing targets. The E85 in the flex fuel kit will provide the correct amount of E85 fuel, at least that's what I'm trying to get confirmation on.

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by 8500RPM

You're missing the point. My and the other guy want to run a Race Gas tune on E85 with the help of the flex fuel kits. The Race gas tune will give the car the increased timing it needs to make more power while the flex fuel kit supplies the high octane E85 to prevent detonation. We are not trying to run race gas with a race gas tune. We just want the Race Gas tunes higher timing targets. The E85 in the flex fuel kit will provide the correct amount of E85 fuel, at least that's what I'm trying to get confirmation on.

What you still are missing is the flex kit does not adjust timing if you load a true E85 tun to your car . When you are on not E85 you will still be running E85 timing targets which will blow the motor or have it pull so much timing to compensate for knock that car will drive like it has lower compress.

This is a such thing as race E85 it’s” e85r” so when you say race gas E85 tune that’s what comes to mine it is 15percent race gas instead of 87 like typical E85 it that makes this clear for the response. You want a E85 tune the flex sensor will not do that. It only increases injector pulse to match the demand of the given content rating. When you are on pump 91 or 93 if you do not load another th r to the car you have issues.

[JsL]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

What you still are missing is the flex kit does not adjust timing if you load a true E85 tun to your car . When you are on not E85 you will still be running E85 timing targets which will blow the motor or have it pull so much timing to compensate for knock that car will drive like it has lower compress.

This is a such thing as race E85 it’s” e85r” so when you say race gas E85 tune that’s what comes to mine it is 15percent race gas instead of 87 like typical E85 it that makes this clear for the response. You want a E85 tune the flex sensor will not do that. It only increases injector pulse to match the demand of the given content rating. When you are on pump 91 or 93 if you do not load another th r to the car you have issues.

From reading his posts, he's going to run a race gas TUNE that has more aggressive timing targets. He will run it with E85 and the eflexfuel kit. He didn't mention the flexfuel kit adjusts timing.

[8500RPM]

Originally Posted by JsL

From reading his posts, he's going to run a race gas TUNE that has more aggressive timing targets. He will run it with E85 and the eflexfuel kit. He didn't mention the flexfuel kit adjusts timing.

You understood me 100%

[jcolley]

Most high octane and race tunes only modify the full load timing table anyway. The question is whether the full RPM range of a high octane gasoline tune and an actual E85 tune would support the same timing advance without the onset of knock at certain RPMs. Why not just ask the tuner for a map with optimized full load timing for E85?

[codinge90]

Is there any benefit to running the AFD kit with a specific e85 tune loaded vs just the e85 tune? There are a few posts of people running both but I don't understand how it's any more of a benefit with the AFD kit since the tune is for 100% e85

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by codinge90

Is there any benefit to running the AFD kit with a specific e85 tune loaded vs just the e85 tune? There are a few posts of people running both but I don't understand how it's any more of a benefit with the AFD kit since the tune is for 100% e85

I've not seen anyone actually use E85 and tune for it without the kit, but can't say I follow it much. IMO, it's non-optimal as the guesswork and math of filling up and thinking you know the actual ethanol content is risky when pushing timing as opposed to having an actual ethanol sensor. No reason it couldn't be done just by altering the stoich parameter in the DME to the correct value, but then, that's a big assumption it's correct all the time. What is the stoich value for E81.35? Once the variation in ethanol content from what stoich value is set for exceeds the % difference in fueling that the DME is allowed to correct fuel trim for to maintain lambda target, the DME would set a check engine light and store a code for filling plausibility.

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by JsL

From reading his posts, he's going to run a race gas TUNE that has more aggressive timing targets. He will run it with E85 and the eflexfuel kit. He didn't mention the flexfuel kit adjusts timing.

Again let’s try this one last time.

If you are ordering a full E85 tune. It’s a E85 tune that has higher timing targets it also has high fuel trim demand maps for fuel.

This is no need to the fuel sensor for that.

He has wasted his own money. The point of the flex fuel unit is to take the current tune for the car and increase the injector pulse width to account for now tuning E85 which requires 30-40 percent more fuel.


If you order a tune fire E85 it is ALREADY demanding more fuel then a basic 93 oct map. So what is the point of the senor if he is tryna get the added fuel. Does this make sense? You want two products to have the same enresult when the tune does this already.


Gintani and rk tunes off FULL E85 tunes. And they also over a maxed out 93 oct tunes. They both send you two tunes one for E85 one for pump gas. Buying the sensor when you are getting tune when the sensor can not account for the timing targets doesn’t make any sense. The point of that sensor is to be able to run E85 WITH out a tune for it and to be able to run 93 as well. But doing so win out an actual tune does not take affects of E85

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

Again let’s try this one last time.

If you are ordering a full E85 tune. It’s a E85 tune that has higher timing targets it also has high fuel trim demand maps for fuel.

This is no need to the fuel sensor for that.

He has wasted his own money. The point of the flex fuel unit is to take the current tune for the car and increase the injector pulse width to account for now tuning E85 which requires 30-40 percent more fuel.


If you order a tune fire E85 it is ALREADY demanding more fuel then a basic 93 oct map. So what is the point of the senor if he is tryna get the added fuel. Does this make sense? You want two products to have the same enresult when the tune does this already.


Gintani and rk tunes off FULL E85 tunes. And they also over a maxed out 93 oct tunes. They both send you two tunes one for E85 one for pump gas. Buying the sensor when you are getting tune when the sensor can not account for the timing targets doesn’t make any sense. The point of that sensor is to be able to run E85 WITH out a tune for it and to be able to run 93 as well. But doing so win out an actual tune does not take affects of E85

If he asks for a tune that isn't written to adjust fueling and only timing targets, it makes perfect sense. The sensor in the kit ensures that the correct (or very close to it) AFR is *targeted* via corrections for ethanol content by the sensor instead of solely *reacting* to it (which it still can do) via corrections from lambda.. What the tuners you mentioned *can't* do is have the DME correct injector pulsewidth proactively with changes in ethanol content from one pump to the next, or half a tank of 93 and half of E85. Not on them, but in the fact there's no way for the DME to know the ethanol content. Without the kit and sensor, the DME just sees lambda going rich when ethanol content is lower, so it adjust fuel trims as long as it can within limits and then keeps.wondering why knock onset is sooner and starts pulling timing.

I'm not a fan of piggyback controllers in any way, but for e85 I would choose this over mapping solely for e85. Ideally the piggyback would intercept ignition signals as well and adjust timing, but the ionic sensing would get really pissy about that.

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by jcolley

If he asks for a tune that isn't written to adjust fueling and only timing targets, it makes perfect sense. The sensor in the kit ensures that the correct (or very close to it) AFR is *targeted* via corrections for ethanol content by the sensor instead of solely *reacting* to it (which it still can do) via corrections from lambda.. What the tuners you mentioned *can't* do is have the DME correct injector pulsewidth proactively with changes in ethanol content from one pump to the next, or half a tank of 93 and half of E85. Not on them, but in the fact there's no way for the DME to know the ethanol content. Without the kit and sensor, the DME just sees lambda going rich when ethanol content is lower, so it adjust fuel trims as long as it can within limits and then keeps.wondering why knock onset is sooner and starts pulling timing.

I'm not a fan of piggyback controllers in any way, but for e85 I would choose this over mapping solely for e85. Ideally the piggyback would intercept ignition signals as well and adjust timing, but the ionic sensing would get really pissy about that.

So you want the tuner to write a half ass tune no fuel added so the. Later you can make the mistake of beating on the car while it has 93 or 91 on in it forgetting t timing targets are to aggressive for that and then end up hurting the car.

Here is how Story will make it to the forums. Tuner sent me tune that blew my car. Think about how that actually goes down not the perfect sense of things going.

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

So you want the tuner to write a half ass tune no fuel added so the. Later you can make the mistake of beating on the car while it has 93 or 91 on in it forgetting t timing targets are to aggressive for that and then end up hurting the car.

Here is how Story will make it to the forums. Tuner sent me tune that blew my car. Think about how that actually goes down not the perfect sense of things going.

I would have no problem writing that tune.

How is your scenario any different with or without the AFD kit? If he forgets, it's going to pull timing either way. When the ionic sensing detects the combustion ion concentration peak inside the knock window, it pulls timing...assuming your tuner didn't disable that.

[tdott]

Read the thread and this is my non-professional tuner summary.

General Ethanol related points:

• E85 Requires 1/3 more fuel
• Higher E content allows cooler burning, lowers IATs and it also increases Octane value
• Higher E content allows timing targets to be met when it would otherwise be pulling timing (Hot, high IATs, etc)
• Stock Fuel system can support full E85 fuel requirements on an N/A Motor
• Higher rate supercharger kit. Sounds like ESS/VF/600+ require fuel system upgrades

Advanced Fuel Dynamics ProFlex related points:

• AFD Proflex can measure Ethanol content and adjust injector pulse to provide more fuel
• AFD app can also display % which can be handy when running mixtures
• AFD can run from E10 to E85 (Maybe higher) and adjust fueling needs
• AFD cannot change timing targets
• AFD N/A motors can run on stock or tuned ecu.
• AFD claims up to 25+ whp gains on full bolt on cars
• AFD dyno shows +15rwhp delta from just proflex kit (full bolt on, 91 tuned car)

Full E85 tune related points:

• Full E85 tunes can run full E85, but you lose the ability to run pump gas without reloading another tune.
• Full E85 tunes will cause hard cold starts

Above points seem to be clear and agreed upon.
Below points seem to cause confusion, not everyone agrees on or I don't fully understand.

• Does running the same amount of Ethanol on a stock ECU n/a car produce the same/more/or less gains than running it with an AFD ProFlex kit
  • Would need to know how much the ECU can adjust for vs how much AFD can adjust for, my assumption is the AFD might be able to adjust for more ethanol than stock ecu, but that is just a guess
  • Is the AFD kit really doing anything more than what the ecu can already do, other than showing us Ethanol content?
• Dyno showing VF620 car making +49rwhp delta is not "controlled enough", owner claimed after installing kit, he saw 2psi increase in boost pressure. So perhaps he had an issue prior to installation, and some gains were due to fixing leaks.
• Running ignition timing targets higher than 93 tunes offer, may produce more gains but then lose the ability to run 91/93.
  • It seems increased timing targets are too high for the ecu to retard, or fuel trims can't dial back enough to run less fuel that 91/93 would need
• Running a E10+ (2-3 gal of E85) mixture when a 91/93 (tune or not tuned) car is not hitting timing targets, will allow it to hit targets, plus ~3-5% more power due to running higher ethanol
  • This seems like it might actually be true, but no testing conclusive enough to prove it because it requires timing info, which is rarely logged with dynos

My question is, why is it that when a stock or modified tune pulls timing, it is not detrimental to the motor. Yet if a full e85 tune pulls timing the motor, some say the motor will blow?

It seems like the ideal scenario would be a tune that can run on 91/93/E10-E85 but that doesn't seem possible (or no one has been able to do yet) since the ECU can't sense Ethanol content and optimize based on that (timing, etc).