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      11-06-2016, 08:01 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samchoi604 View Post
due to the space requirement nature of the torsen quattro, it would not work in the A3/S3 as it would require pushing the engine further to the front, causing the front to be heavier and forcing Audi add more heft (length) to the rear to balance it out, and you would end up with a car with the same size and weight as an A4/S4. I don't think it is a cost-saving decision, but application and form factor that dictated which AWD system is used.

With that said, Haldex is not bad at all and test have shown that Volvos with Haldex has the best grip in snow conditions. It was a test conducted by a german magazine and compared it against all the other types of AWD. If you google around you will find it. Also, Audi's second fastest car to the R8 is the TT RS, which obviously is using Haldex.
I'm not saying that Haldex is necessarily bad, there are some great cars that use the technology ... but I've driven Audi's implementation in it's entry level bracket and it is underwhelming at best. I have no confidence that Audi is interested in making it substantially better. Even if they bias it differently, the car is not impressive to drive compared to the 2 series I test drove immediately after. That's why I bought the M235i xDrive.
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      11-06-2016, 08:11 PM   #24
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1 series sedan and hatch rwd would sell great here in the states. Don't understand why they don't bring the m135i here. Hatchbacks have been growing over the years. Even the x1 is as well. Only thing that is a shame is that the previous gen x1 feels so much more connected and drives much better then it's newer counterpart.
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      11-06-2016, 08:48 PM   #25
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This needs to arrive in the US
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      11-07-2016, 02:18 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
It's still a Haldex, not a quattro, unit and at the S3 price point that's not something I'd settle for. The 2 series comes with xDrive (not the UKL platform front bias version mentioned above) and that's much preferable.
The 2 series Active tourer, grand tourer, the F48 (new X1) and now the 1 series sedan is all based on UKL, hence the Haldex solution with FWD as default. The branding X-drive is no longer one technical solution, but a mere branding, as Quattro is, which imo, is a shame. It's a cheaper solution with a different set up, than the X-drive natural RWD by default.
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      11-07-2016, 01:15 PM   #27
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Very nice!
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      11-07-2016, 01:21 PM   #28
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Certainly more interesting than the A3 and CLA.
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      11-07-2016, 03:26 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samchoi604 View Post
due to the space requirement nature of the torsen quattro, it would not work in the A3/S3 as it would require pushing the engine further to the front, causing the front to be heavier and forcing Audi add more heft (length) to the rear to balance it out, and you would end up with a car with the same size and weight as an A4/S4. I don't think it is a cost-saving decision, but application and form factor that dictated which AWD system is used.

With that said, Haldex is not bad at all and test have shown that Volvos with Haldex has the best grip in snow conditions. It was a test conducted by a german magazine and compared it against all the other types of AWD. If you google around you will find it. Also, Audi's second fastest car to the R8 is the TT RS, which obviously is using Haldex.
The problem with Haldex has never been an inability to find grip, or even to deliver competent lap times (there's a lot more to it than AWD). The problem with Haldex has always been how it affects handling.

Until very recently, Haldex worked solely by detecting slip at the front wheels, which would trigger the engagement of a clutch that drives the real wheels. The mechanism that enacts this engagement has changed over time, but the fundamental issue has always been that the front tires must slip before the rear differential is engaged. The most recent revision to Haldex (offered in the TT RS) uses additional factors to determine when to engage the rear differential. The system is new though, so the jury is still out.

Once you have front wheel slip, you have understeer. There's simply no way around that, and so Haldex equipped cars are (er, were?) plagued with FWD-like understeer. It is possible to "power through" the understeer when in doubt, throttle out but it doesn't deliver a remarkably enjoyable driving experience for most people.

If your needs are practical, then Haldex is fine. It'll get your car going in the snow/mud way better than FWD. BMW has built its brand on something more than practicality though. "The Ultimate Driving Machine" shouldn't push through corners like a tractor.

Admittedly, that is a severe indictment of a car that hasn't even been released yet, and as everyone loves to point out, the Mini Cooper is a hilariously fun-to-drive FWD car. Still, it is a little discouraging to see the market developing like this. At the entry-point of the market, FWD or FWD-biased AWD systems appear to be your only options.
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      11-07-2016, 03:57 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSCD View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
A3/S3 do not use Audi's outstanding quattro AWD system, but opt for a less expensive Haldex unit. It is FWD biased and, having test driven the S3, it is noticeably so and very disappointing.
Thanks, wasn't sure. Seems these days you better off having an older car! I deliberately got a NA I6 engine. Would love a manual but wife doesn't drive stick (and that's deal breaker for her)...

Shame about the S3 as on paper looks like a great option. Too small for my needs.
Thanks.
The RS3 should fix this with a better and system.
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      11-07-2016, 04:43 PM   #31
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The RS3 should fix this with a better and system.
RS3 = TT RS
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      11-07-2016, 06:29 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by samchoi604 View Post
due to the space requirement nature of the torsen quattro, it would not work in the A3/S3 as it would require pushing the engine further to the front, causing the front to be heavier and forcing Audi add more heft (length) to the rear to balance it out, and you would end up with a car with the same size and weight as an A4/S4. I don't think it is a cost-saving decision, but application and form factor that dictated which AWD system is used.

With that said, Haldex is not bad at all and test have shown that Volvos with Haldex has the best grip in snow conditions. It was a test conducted by a german magazine and compared it against all the other types of AWD. If you google around you will find it. Also, Audi's second fastest car to the R8 is the TT RS, which obviously is using Haldex.
I'm not saying that Haldex is necessarily bad, there are some great cars that use the technology ... but I've driven Audi's implementation in it's entry level bracket and it is underwhelming at best. I have no confidence that Audi is interested in making it substantially better. Even if they bias it differently, the car is not impressive to drive compared to the 2 series I test drove immediately after. That's why I bought the M235i xDrive.
So wish the M140i and M240i had the x drive option in the UK
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      11-07-2016, 09:44 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
The problem with Haldex has never been an inability to find grip, or even to deliver competent lap times (there's a lot more to it than AWD). The problem with Haldex has always been how it affects handling.

Until very recently, Haldex worked solely by detecting slip at the front wheels, which would trigger the engagement of a clutch that drives the real wheels. The mechanism that enacts this engagement has changed over time, but the fundamental issue has always been that the front tires must slip before the rear differential is engaged. The most recent revision to Haldex (offered in the TT RS) uses additional factors to determine when to engage the rear differential. The system is new though, so the jury is still out.

Once you have front wheel slip, you have understeer. There's simply no way around that, and so Haldex equipped cars are (er, were?) plagued with FWD-like understeer. It is possible to "power through" the understeer when in doubt, throttle out but it doesn't deliver a remarkably enjoyable driving experience for most people.

If your needs are practical, then Haldex is fine. It'll get your car going in the snow/mud way better than FWD. BMW has built its brand on something more than practicality though. "The Ultimate Driving Machine" shouldn't push through corners like a tractor.

Admittedly, that is a severe indictment of a car that hasn't even been released yet, and as everyone loves to point out, the Mini Cooper is a hilariously fun-to-drive FWD car. Still, it is a little discouraging to see the market developing like this. At the entry-point of the market, FWD or FWD-biased AWD systems appear to be your only options.
the entire Audi line-up starting with the new A4 is going this direction. 100% power to the front under normal conditions, and up to 100% can go to the rear. They call it "quattro ultra." As bad as it sounds, the new A4 has way less understeer than the last generation A4 with permanent AWD so
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      11-07-2016, 10:06 PM   #34
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What Would Bob Lutz Do with a FWD 1-Series Bimmer?

Probably barf.

He already stated the company is irrelevant as a performance marque:

"BMW has ceased to be a company designing responsive, sporting cars for enthusiasts. "

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...bob-lutz-july/

It must be frustrating for the inventor of the "Ultimate Driving Machine" to live to see current management neuter the brand into a more-expensive and less-reliable Lexus copy-cat.

The 1-series ought to be BMWs best-effort interpretation of a modern sports sedan. Only current management could take that beautiful chassis and transform it into a smart car eco-box wanna be.
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      11-07-2016, 10:18 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post


Admittedly, that is a severe indictment of a car that hasn't even been released yet, and as everyone loves to point out, the Mini Cooper is a hilariously fun-to-drive FWD car. Still, it is a little discouraging to see the market developing like this. At the entry-point of the market, FWD or FWD-biased AWD systems appear to be your only options.
Completely agree. My Mazdaspeed 6 was an absolute blast to drive, Haldex notwithstanding. But, my expectations of that car were in keeping with its price point and that it was a skunkworks derivation of a sleepy sedan. My expectations of something labelled an "S" or an "M" and at a much higher price strata are much different (and I am referring to meaningful M like M Performance or M, not M Sport and obviously not S Line).
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      11-07-2016, 10:21 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkStory View Post
the entire Audi line-up starting with the new A4 is going this direction. 100% power to the front under normal conditions, and up to 100% can go to the rear. They call it "quattro ultra." As bad as it sounds, the new A4 has way less understeer than the last generation A4 with permanent AWD so
The logic doesn't work in the reverse. That is to say, the absence of Haldex does not automatically mean the absence of understeer.
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      11-07-2016, 11:01 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkStory View Post
the entire Audi line-up starting with the new A4 is going this direction. 100% power to the front under normal conditions, and up to 100% can go to the rear. They call it "quattro ultra." As bad as it sounds, the new A4 has way less understeer than the last generation A4 with permanent AWD so
The new A4 has Torsen awd with 60/40 red bias. They also have an ultra version with the smallest engine (1.4l or so). What's the biggest bummer is they released a manual but it only has the ultra system. I'm cross shopping the A4, S3, S4, F80, XE (want to wait for their inline 6 tho), C43. S3 is on up there on my list but I'm concerned about the fwd feel. Jury's out on the latest haldex iteration. I could maybe live with an A4 for the killer interior and its not-too-shabby 0-60 of 5.2 along with the frugality of it.
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      11-08-2016, 12:24 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSCD View Post
And the Audi is based on a Front wheel drive without the Quattro.... as the Quattro is awd I don't know if there is bias but assume not? X-drive 1er would still be fwd bias.... that said doesn't seem to affect X1 sales!
A3/S3 do not use Audi's outstanding quattro AWD system, but opt for a less expensive Haldex unit. It is FWD biased and, having test driven the S3, it is noticeably so and very disappointing.
Is it noticeably different than their quattro? Before my f82, I had a b8 s4 and absolutely loved it. I know there are a lot of rwd enthusiasts here but stability and grips from the quattro was simply sublime.
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      11-09-2016, 12:28 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin_e90 View Post
1 series sedan and hatch rwd would sell great here in the states. Don't understand why they don't bring the m135i here. Hatchbacks have been growing over the years. Even the x1 is as well. Only thing that is a shame is that the previous gen x1 feels so much more connected and drives much better then it's newer counterpart.
The sedan, maybe. The hatch, absolutely not. Cut-and-paste from a previous post of mine in another thread:

<<It's not that Americans don't like small cars. Americans don't like hatchbacks -- and so-called 'hot' hatchbacks in particular. For decades, dozens of hatches have either not made the U.S. market (any one of a number of European models, including the M135i), have been sold here but then eliminated (the WRX/STi five-door comes immediately to mind, as does the Civic Si three-door and the Mazda2), or have been marketed incorrectly and sold poorly.

The only ones that tend to do reasonably well are either niche or fashionable models (the MINI falls into this category, as does the Fiat 500) or are out-and-out economy cars (Prius, Chevy Sonic, Ford Fiesta, dirt-cheap Kias and Hyundais) These days, the biggest reason they don't 'take' is because of the proliferation of small SUVs -- which, I might add, do not sell well pretty much anywhere else in the world but here.

The SUV phenomenon is also related to the reason why station wagons (i.e., five-door cars with a liftgate instead of a trunk) no longer sell. Believe it or not, the government categorizes almost all five-door hatchbacks as 'station wagons' now -- even the Sonic and the Golf.
>>

Since that post, the 2-door version of the Golf (including the GTI) has been discontinued, and though Chevy is marketing the new Cruze Hatch, it will almost certainly not sell to individuals nearly as much as to rental and company fleets. Also, sorry: the X1 is a small SUV, and is marketed and certified as such ... and there's a reason Audi doesn't sell the A1 here, VW doesn't sell the Polo here, M-B has never sold its A-class cars here, etc.

(Oh, and not only all of that, but it's just not cost effective for a foreign car company to crash-certify a low-margin vehicle with the FMVSS like a smaller hatchback. Why? Again: they don't sell. it's simply not worth it.)

Smaller hatchbacks are not growing in the U.S. They are shrinking. What is starting to sell some, however, are large luxury hatches like the Audi A7 and Porsche Panamera. My bet is that both BMW and M-B have a version of this kind of car for sale by 2021.
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      11-17-2016, 07:08 PM   #40
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To debut tomorrow built and developed for China at the current time but Yes it could be built in a UKL+ plant. Such as Leipzig,Regensburg or even new plants in Brazil or Mexico or it could be manufactured at the Nedcar factory in the Netherlands alongside the MINI. Or even the UK? Of course that is hypothetical.

BMW do see potential in other markets that is something they won't officially deny. Especially in the US, Russia or even India. The car has also been developed for other global markets should the need arise.
For now though its specifically for China.
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      11-18-2016, 10:34 AM   #41
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Now unveiled. The New BMW 1er Sedan.
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