Advice for new intermediate students

[DreamTime]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

My piece of shit E46 gifted me with spun bearing this weekend at WGI. I still think it's a fun car to drive but it has been a ton of work for the last 6 years.

Oh man, that sucks. I'm so sorry to hear that. What do you plan on doing? Do you think you will replace the engine and keep going, or move on to something else? Or is it too soon to think about such things...

[DreamTime]

Originally Posted by admranger

Richbot makes a great case for arrive and drive w/real race cars. SCCA is serious racing too!

Having owned 2 crew cab diesel dually trucks and a 40' pusher diesel motor home, all chosen based on towing capability, I did it all wrong.

DIY something else, not race car.

Okay, okay you guys. I can see the logic in all of this. Like, maybe my love for old M3s would be better put to use by slowly buying well maintained garage queens and collecting them over the years. Driving them occasionally and continuing to maintain them, but not beating the shit out of them at the track only to spend more time working on them than driving them. I can’t change my love for these cars, but maybe I can change the way I plan to spend my time and money on them in my life. Lots to think about, but I have plenty of time.

I can 100% see the appeal of an arrive and drive type situation. Especially if after weighing all expenses involved, it ends up being comparable or even more affordable in cost.

I know me, though. I will still want an M3 race car. I just will. I guess when it comes time for me to buy the car that I will turn into my dedicated track/race car, I should look for a 2012-2013 E92. That would be the absolute latest model M3 I would ever consider, and I already consider the E9X platform to be the pinnacle of BMW’s M engineering.

As I try to mention on a regular basis, I am still relatively new to all of this. So, I have a lot to learn and I am sure my needs/wants/preferences will change over time. This is why I very much value everyone’s input. Thank you.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by CorruptCommie

I know you were joking, but they actually are. Mine won't stop... doesn't really accelerate either. Barely turns for that matter too.

Lol...the E46 M3 was a great car until the E9X M3 came out. It takes aero, sticky tires and a lot of $$$ sunk into an e46 to make it faster than an E9X. The E9X M3 is superior to the E46 M3 in just about every way. Same bearing issues except the VANOS doesn't blow up and the rear floor doesn't fall out.

I so want to sell my E46 for an IB E90 DCT.

[Chris_PDX]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Lol...the E46 M3 was a great car until the E9X M3 came out. It takes aero, sticky tires and a lot of $$$ sunk into an e46 to make it faster than an E9X. The E9X M3 is superior to the E46 M3 in just about every way. Same bearing issues except the VANOS doesn't blow up and the rear floor doesn't fall out.

I so want to sell my E46 for an IB E90 DCT.

I'd disagree with that statement. As someone who owns and tracks both (though the E92 only sees the track once or twice a year). It depends on the track, but I'm about 1-2 seconds a lap quicker in the E46 than the E92. The E46 has track setup suspension, but street tires (RS4s) and no aero. A 4.10 rear diff helps as well.

I'm usually as fast or quicker than any other E9x M3 on track unless they have r-comps/slicks and are heavily prepped. Also, "a lot of $$$" is relative lol.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by DreamTime

Oh man, that sucks. I'm so sorry to hear that. What do you plan on doing? Do you think you will replace the engine and keep going, or move on to something else? Or is it too soon to think about such things...

I am going to try to fix it.

[Chris_PDX]

Originally Posted by DreamTime

I know me, though. I will still want an M3 race car. I just will. I guess when it comes time for me to buy the car that I will turn into my dedicated track/race car, I should look for a 2012-2013 E92. That would be the absolute latest model M3 I would ever consider, and I already consider the E9X platform to be the pinnacle of BMW’s M engineering.

As I try to mention on a regular basis, I am still relatively new to all of this. So, I have a lot to learn and I am sure my needs/wants/preferences will change over time. This is why I very much value everyone’s input. Thank you.

I was in your same situation two years ago. I didn't want to keep tracking my daily (E92 M3) and wanted to step up my game with an eye towards racing. I considered an E36, E46, or another E92 M3 for a dedicated track car, and ultimately a race car.

I ended up with an E46, and don't regret it. The E36 just doesn't have the stock power, the E46 chassis is better, and overall it's just a solid platform to use long-term. My E46 is about 90% there in terms of race-ready, just need to add the front part to the cage, fire suppression and electrical cut-off, and good to go. It's already setup where I'd have competitive times at the top class in Lucky Dog or similar.

[Datka]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

My piece of shit E46 gifted me with spun bearing this weekend at WGI. I still think it's a fun car to drive but it has been a ton of work for the last 6 years.

Wow. Sorry to hear this man. From your previous posts I know your car is fast.
I thought rod bearing issue was a s65 engine issue, not s54.
Our cars are fun to drive as long as they are working lol.
I finally broke 2 min barrier last week with trackmasters at the glen(1:59.23 sec).
It was a cool nice weather on Thursday and my car was unusually quick with brand new R7s..
Was pushing 165mph indicated at the back straight before the bus stop, but rod bearing potential failure is always in the back of my head.
I am still on the original ones and my engine is supercharged(50K miles total)

[Richbot]

Anything can spin a bearing

[CorruptCommie]

Yeah with heavy track use the bearings get eaten up. I replaced about two years ago (WPC OEM), and have been steady wearing lead since. Oil gets flipped every six track days and sent out for UOA, when the copper goes up, the front subframe comes down.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by Datka

Wow. Sorry to hear this man. From your previous posts I know your car is fast.
I thought rod bearing issue was a s65 engine issue, not s54.
Our cars are fun to drive as long as they are working lol.
I finally broke 2 min barrier last week with trackmasters at the glen(1:59.23 sec).
It was a cool nice weather on Thursday and my car was unusually quick with brand new R7s..
Was pushing 165mph indicated at the back straight before the bus stop, but rod bearing potential failure is always in the back of my head.
I am still on the original ones and my engine is supercharged(50K miles total)

Great lap time!

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Chris_PDX

I'd disagree with that statement. As someone who owns and tracks both (though the E92 only sees the track once or twice a year). It depends on the track, but I'm about 1-2 seconds a lap quicker in the E46 than the E92. The E46 has track setup suspension, but street tires (RS4s) and no aero. A 4.10 rear diff helps as well.

I'm usually as fast or quicker than any other E9x M3 on track unless they have r-comps/slicks and are heavily prepped. Also, "a lot of $$$" is relative lol.

I also own both and have tracked them.

I'm about a second faster on a 2.5 mile course in my E90 M3 (Dinan Stg 3 suspension, ST BBK, stock power). The only issue is in slow and tight switchbacks, that's when you can feel the weight.

I drive the E90 more like a point and shoot car whereas I desperately try and keep my momentum in the E46.

The E90 brakes better and throttle steers WAY better. You can make a mistake and it straightens up as long as you keep your foot in it.

[m13s]

My 2002 E46 just left the stable for good and I am in process of a e90 m3. It takes a shitload of money to keep them competitive in the class I race in (touring 1, scca). Sure it is lighter and I can hang with the big dogs on the shorter tracks, longer tracks forget it. My car had a full race diff from diffs on line 4:10, kw clubsports, 2800 pounds, cae shifter, 5 speed, pfc brakes with hats and rotors it was set up to win and perform. Plenty of other goodies as well. The car was almost a perfect 50/50 balance. It rotated well and I could stuff it in under braking, gain some real estate only to be motored on past by the mustangs, E9Xm3 and vettes. Frustrating to say the least. At the end of the day it is a car designed 20+ years ago, and my car is pushing 17+ years. Sure it is a solid platform, but time takes its toll on the metal and my car had been tracked and raced for the last three years, hard. By hard I mean racing it not over revving and unneeded stress. The upkeep is to much to bear and parts will be getting tougher to come by unless you want to really spend about 25K for a full on build for a six cylinder. Will I miss it, sure, it left me stranded two times in 3 years of racing and tracking it. That is a testament to upkeep and no expenses were spared. At the last outing 4 weeks ago an oil line popped and smoked a bearing, I said that's it, I am done.

The E9XM3 is heavier, but it also has a V8 and every generation does better than the previous. Sure you can be nostalgic about the E30/36/46 platforms, at the end of the day the E9X will smoke the E46 in the series I run in. (running on multiple tracks full season) You can pick up a decent E46M3 for sub 12K, be prepared to dump 50K plus into it, if you want to run any where near the front in T1/SCCA. Nasa spec E46 is different, as are the GTS 4/5 classes. I am speaking from my experiences in SCCA, and not saying one is better than the other.

The E90 that I am putting together is clean, inside and out. (doing the final race this weekend in NER, hopefully it will be ready.) Shocked at how clean it is for an 80K mile car whereas my E46 was turning into a rust bucket. Since I have had it it was always garaged, it is just old and you can't fight father time.

Don't get me wrong I liked the E46, won a lot of races with it, had many tears from other marks and it will always have a special place with me. When I look back on the accomplishments that I made with her, I'll smile. Time to move on. Is the E9X platform going to be a winner for me? Time will tell. I do know that I like working and racing a cleaner car, it has a V8, is a porker so I will have to adjust my driving style. My turn to motor past people on the straights!

[DreamTime]

Wow guys, some great stuff in here. Thanks to everyone who has shared their experiences of E46 and/or E9X track/race cars. I love few things in life like I love a solid good discussion on these 2 particular cars... Yes, I am that much of a nerd lol *facepalm* As much as the nostalgia factor keeps pulling me back to an E46, the pull of the E92 keeps ending up on top. I will, without a doubt, own an E46 M3 at some point in my life. But, it will likely not see the track too many times before it is retired to a comfy garage/occasional spirited driving lifestyle. Silly maybe, but whatever

The reason I keep coming back to the E92 might have a lot to do with my learning how to drive on track with my E90. Although there might be some minor differences in handling between the two (I don't know if the different body styles would equate to such differences, but I assume perhaps this might be the case?), I am used to the S65 and the way my E90 drives on track. Yes, the car is a porker LMAO, but it seems so perfectly balanced to me, especially once you strip it down to a more suitable weight. The only crazy part for me, is that I have decided I will go DCT for the track. For a manual die hard, this was a surprising choice lol. It just seems to make sense though. From what I have heard, it is a great transmission, and I guess it just makes sense for track use. I will always have my manual cars for street driving

On another note -- for anyone who is still reading this lol. At what point do I need to worry about engine oil temps? Last year, in my first year, I never experienced higher oil temps as I really didn't even push the car very hard until my RBs had been replaced halfway through the season. This year I consistently see the needle creeping towards the 255 mark. I just wonder at what point I should concern myself with additional cooling mods.

Thank you everyone!

[kyippee]

There's 210 in the middle of the gauge, a dot, then 300. I'm not concerned until it gets into the middle of the dot and 300. I typically max out at ~255 as well, maybe ~265.

When it gets really hot I just run the AC on fan only, 84 degrees, coming out driver/passenger side vents only shooting out the window, highest fan speed, and select the middle fan option to shoot towards face. Helps with the heat.

My only cooling related mods are the CSF oil cooler and Slonik DCT pan. I don't see lower max temps w/CSF, but it does seem to cool down quicker. I think a better radiator would help lower max temps.

[FuzzyPeaches]

Originally Posted by DreamTime

Wow guys, some great stuff in here. Thanks to everyone who has shared their experiences of E46 and/or E9X track/race cars. I love few things in life like I love a solid good discussion on these 2 particular cars... Yes, I am that much of a nerd lol *facepalm* As much as the nostalgia factor keeps pulling me back to an E46, the pull of the E92 keeps ending up on top. I will, without a doubt, own an E46 M3 at some point in my life. But, it will likely not see the track too many times before it is retired to a comfy garage/occasional spirited driving lifestyle. Silly maybe, but whatever

The reason I keep coming back to the E92 might have a lot to do with my learning how to drive on track with my E90. Although there might be some minor differences in handling between the two (I don't know if the different body styles would equate to such differences, but I assume perhaps this might be the case?), I am used to the S65 and the way my E90 drives on track. Yes, the car is a porker LMAO, but it seems so perfectly balanced to me, especially once you strip it down to a more suitable weight. The only crazy part for me, is that I have decided I will go DCT for the track. For a manual die hard, this was a surprising choice lol. It just seems to make sense though. From what I have heard, it is a great transmission, and I guess it just makes sense for track use. I will always have my manual cars for street driving

On another note -- for anyone who is still reading this lol. At what point do I need to worry about engine oil temps? Last year, in my first year, I never experienced higher oil temps as I really didn't even push the car very hard until my RBs had been replaced halfway through the season. This year I consistently see the needle creeping towards the 255 mark. I just wonder at what point I should concern myself with additional cooling mods.

Thank you everyone!

Just wait til you drive the mighty E30 on track!

[m13s]

I just spent the first weekend on track with the E90M3. The cage was finished Monday and we raced it the following Friday/Saturday. WIth time being a factor we did not have time to upload a tune so it went into limp mode all weekend. I would do a hard reset while on track and wait until the next error, then reset again. All while in a race! It has something to do with the steering and wheel sensors so I had to drive it and only use throttle when the car was straight. Another story as I was fighting for the NER T1 championship and needed points to win.

What are my thoughts from going from an E46 to the E90? The E90 Handled *BETTER* than the E46. Period. It rotated better, turned in quicker, had zero understeer like the E46. Steering was heavier in the E90 (I like) and the E90 is surprisingly nimble for a fat pig. I was shocked at how little understeer it had! My driving style introduces understeer and this car was a joy to drive. Sure it felt insulated from the E46, keep in mind that I had solid everything in that car and you could feel pebbles under it. The E90, while not even set up yet, is miles ahead of the E46 platform. Some of the E46 purists may disagree as their beloved platform is going to get smoked by the E90. The E90 wins in every category, hands down. My buddies racing the E46's were asking, how do you like it. My response was, "when it gets out of limp mode, you guys will be looking to race in another class." Hard stares and heavy gulps all around.

I have not even talked about the S65, which is on a whole different level than the S54. With the S54 it was like running a chainsaw at full RPM all the time and with the E90 it is much more relaxed. Driving the car and managing the motor I was not taxed at all. AT ALL. I can drive the E46M3 all day and not break a sweat, with the new E90M3 it was the most relaxed I have ever felt on track. The car is comfortable, predictable, very well mannered, and the motor when above 5K rpm is intoxicating. People behind me loved to hear it sing.

I will not even think about the E46 going forward. That is in the rear view mirror and I am very happy with the decision of changing platforms.

Sure it will take some time to sort out, but that is half the fun. I have a 4:45 diff on order and that should be an absolute beast when installed.

[DreamTime]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

There's 210 in the middle of the gauge, a dot, then 300. I'm not concerned until it gets into the middle of the dot and 300. I typically max out at ~255 as well, maybe ~265.

When it gets really hot I just run the AC on fan only, 84 degrees, coming out driver/passenger side vents only shooting out the window, highest fan speed, and select the middle fan option to shoot towards face. Helps with the heat.

My only cooling related mods are the CSF oil cooler and Slonik DCT pan. I don't see lower max temps w/CSF, but it does seem to cool down quicker. I think a better radiator would help lower max temps.

Awesome, thank you. This is reassuring and also helpful. I am going to google the CSF oil cooler. I just realized that this topic has probably been addressed at some point on this forum, I have just been so busy I come on here only to read and quickly write out whatever I’m thinking. I could, maybe… try searching for my answers lol. Your advice perfectly answers my question though, and it seems right in line with where I’m at and what I’m doing, except the DCT… not there yet

Originally Posted by FuzzyPeaches

Just wait til you drive the mighty E30 on track!

Lol, just wait til I can drive it at all My short ass needs to be able to push the clutch in all the way first! We’ll get that part figured out first weekend in Nov though Then - it’s on.

[DreamTime]

Originally Posted by m13s

I just spent the first weekend on track with the E90M3. The cage was finished Monday and we raced it the following Friday/Saturday. WIth time being a factor we did not have time to upload a tune so it went into limp mode all weekend. I would do a hard reset while on track and wait until the next error, then reset again. All while in a race! It has something to do with the steering and wheel sensors so I had to drive it and only use throttle when the car was straight. Another story as I was fighting for the NER T1 championship and needed points to win.

What are my thoughts from going from an E46 to the E90? The E90 Handled *BETTER* than the E46. Period. It rotated better, turned in quicker, had zero understeer like the E46. Steering was heavier in the E90 (I like) and the E90 is surprisingly nimble for a fat pig. I was shocked at how little understeer it had! My driving style introduces understeer and this car was a joy to drive. Sure it felt insulated from the E46, keep in mind that I had solid everything in that car and you could feel pebbles under it. The E90, while not even set up yet, is miles ahead of the E46 platform. Some of the E46 purists may disagree as their beloved platform is going to get smoked by the E90. The E90 wins in every category, hands down. My buddies racing the E46's were asking, how do you like it. My response was, "when it gets out of limp mode, you guys will be looking to race in another class." Hard stares and heavy gulps all around.

I have not even talked about the S65, which is on a whole different level than the S54. With the S54 it was like running a chainsaw at full RPM all the time and with the E90 it is much more relaxed. Driving the car and managing the motor I was not taxed at all. AT ALL. I can drive the E46M3 all day and not break a sweat, with the new E90M3 it was the most relaxed I have ever felt on track. The car is comfortable, predictable, very well mannered, and the motor when above 5K rpm is intoxicating. People behind me loved to hear it sing.

I will not even think about the E46 going forward. That is in the rear view mirror and I am very happy with the decision of changing platforms.

Sure it will take some time to sort out, but that is half the fun. I have a 4:45 diff on order and that should be an absolute beast when installed.

Oh my. The E9X M3 is a perfectly rounded car, isn't it? Reading your impressions of the E46 vs. the E90 was more than enjoyable. Thank you for such a well spoken review of the two platforms. I agree - intoxicating is the word I fall back on regularly when describing the way the S65 feels, performs, and of course sounds. *swoon* I literally fell in love with an engine lmao. Not to mention all the other admirable qualities of the car.

I don't think I will be able to help myself... I will end up buying an E92 to build and race. I still have a little way to go, but I am focused. Just need to keep my eye on the prize

You're not too far from me, hopefully we have a chance to catch up at the track sometime!

[m13s]

Originally Posted by DreamTime

Oh my. The E9X M3 is a perfectly rounded car, isn't it? Reading your impressions of the E46 vs. the E90 was more than enjoyable. Thank you for such a well spoken review of the two platforms. I agree - intoxicating is the word I fall back on regularly when describing the way the S65 feels, performs, and of course sounds. *swoon* I literally fell in love with an engine lmao. Not to mention all the other admirable qualities of the car.

I don't think I will be able to help myself... I will end up buying an E92 to build and race. I still have a little way to go, but I am focused. Just need to keep my eye on the prize

You're not too far from me, hopefully we have a chance to catch up at the track sometime!

I would not saw perfectly rounded, but the platform does everything better than the E46M3.We will need to spend some time sorting the platform and it will get sorted, that is half the fun. WHy are you waiting to get an E92 ? Just do it man!

I am in MA you are in SC, you think that is close?

[DreamTime]

Originally Posted by m13s

I would not saw perfectly rounded, but the platform does everything better than the E46M3.We will need to spend some time sorting the platform and it will get sorted, that is half the fun. WHy are you waiting to get an E92 ? Just do it man!

I am in MA you are in SC, you think that is close?

Lol, I want to trust me! I already came *this* close to buying a couple different cars over the last year - an E36 & an E46 M3. My people keep telling me to wait and spend my money on more driving time, which I have done this year. Now, since I will be driving with my friend in his E30 race car I will be contributing $$ towards that car (brakes, tires, race entry fees, etc), and I think I will be happy doing that for a year or so. I am always looking at cars for sale though, so if the right one comes along at the right time I will swoop on it. I am going to be buying a house by next summer too, so the holding off and racing with my friend for a while seems like a good financial choice. Although -- this love of BMWs and racing sometimes makes me want to make some questionable financial choices lmfao.

And sure, I guess from a traditional standpoint MA and SC are not close. But, I have track friends all up and down the east coast at this point, shit - my instructor lives in OH, and we all still manage to see each other at events. You never know! At the least, I hope you stick around this forum with updates of your awesome car as you dial it in. I learn so much from people like you, either on forums or at the track.

[admranger]

E30s are the most fun to drive. My first race car was an '87 325iS, raced an E36M3 after that. Have driven all M3's except the newest on the track. Still love the nimbleness of a well set up E30 the best. Besides, it's really hard to get into trouble with your right foot in an E30. Just mash the gas and (eventually) go.

Great first race car and you'll learn so much about momentum in an E30. Be sensitive of how each little input affects the car. Unwind the steering a little and watch the car make the corner anyways. Use less brake for the upcoming turn and voila', you make the corner. Obviously, you have to work up to it but it'll come. Less is more except for the right foot in an E30.

[DreamTime]

Originally Posted by admranger

E30s are the most fun to drive. My first race car was an '87 325iS, raced an E36M3 after that. Have driven all M3's except the newest on the track. Still love the nimbleness of a well set up E30 the best. Besides, it's really hard to get into trouble with your right foot in an E30. Just mash the gas and (eventually) go.

Great first race car and you'll learn so much about momentum in an E30. Be sensitive of how each little input affects the car. Unwind the steering a little and watch the car make the corner anyways. Use less brake for the upcoming turn and voila', you make the corner. Obviously, you have to work up to it but it'll come. Less is more except for the right foot in an E30.

This post makes me so happy You know, I have been thinking about this a lot, and I really do think an E30 is a great place to start with racing. First off, many of my friends who instruct have always told me I should have started with a momentum car, in general, at HPDEs. But, I bought my dream car (E90 M3 6MT) and I'd be damned if I wasn't going to track the hell out of that thing before I retired it to a cushy life of obsessive maintenance and garage time/moderate daily driving.

I love your advice for driving an E30. It will certainly be an adjustment from what I am used to with the E90, but I think it will be perfect. The adjustment period is why I will split my HPDE time in 2019 between the E90 and the E30, that way I get used to the car before I go to race school in December 2019.

I particularly like your ending statement - "Less is more except for the right foot in an E30." If there's one thing I like to do it's mash on the gas pedal... it has almost gotten me in trouble a couple times with the E90 while I learn how to handle the power coming out of corners. I'm excited to try a whole different driving experience.

Thank you!