RX-8 R3 to E90 M3

IamFODI · 12-26-2018, 07:30 AM

Cliff’s: Had an RX-8 R3. Totaled. Got an E90 M3. Now trying to figure out who the hell I even am any more.

I initially wrote this for a very different audience, but some M3P members have asked me to post it here. Not sure I see why, but I figure their opinions are more relevant than mine.

Fair warning: This is long, and it needs a preface.

Necessary Background

Car shopping is weird when the things you value most are rare. Having few options makes the process simple, which is nice. But if the few cars on your list are deeply flawed – or, worse, if there’s only one car and it’s practically made of downsides – you kind of just have to deal with it.

My most-valued-things list is two items long:

1. Manual transmission
2. Excellent handling

#2 really makes things interesting.

I don’t have a reason for it other than strong personal taste. I just like cars that are low, light, agile, responsive, feelsome, focused, and faster in a corner than they are down a straight. As long as everything else about the car is just good enough to bear, I’m fine.

The catch: My car is my family’s only car, so it has to have back seats big enough to fit a rear-facing child seat behind my wife.

Turns out the Mazda RX-8 just clears the back-seat bar. Of course it comes in stick. And in R3 trim, AFAICT, it out-handles any MT-equipped car with equal or bigger back seats, stock-vs.-stock or mod-for-mod – at any price, ever. At least, that's how it seemed in 2010, and it still seemed that way a few years later when my old E36 M3 decided it no longer needed its head gasket. So, after that sad and unsettlingly smoky event, I picked up the 2011 RX-8 R3 you see above.

Yes, the engine is crap. Yes, it feels like an econobox in so many ways. Yes, it has EPS, which undermines the one thing it’s good at. Don’t care, don’t care, don’t care. Never did, maybe never will.

See that giant derpy shit-eating grin on its front facia? That’s how the car felt to drive, all day, every day, everywhere. And man, did it kick some ass on a backroad. Mechanically, it’s basically a giant Miata with the torsional rigidity of a supercar (30k Nm/deg), and it shows. Even on 225-square tires, it made so many legit performance cars feel like blunt instruments.

Damn good car to have for my first open track day, too. Just a perfect platform to learn on.

It was also really frustrating in a lot of ways, many of them obvious. It annoyed the shit out of my wife and was a tight fit for her and the kid, to boot. But I had long since convinced myself that any bigger or more comfortable car would be intolerably frustrating, and assumed we were stuck with the R3 whether we liked it or not.

That assumption didn’t even crack until my R3 was totaled. Then it shattered. I figured it was half-past-about-damn-time to see if I could tolerate a car that wasn’t borderline unusable with a wife and kid.

Wasn’t about to take that experiment in reasonableness too far, though. Baby steps, right?

Quite a stroke of luck that this was on the market after the crash. MT, slicktop, no iDrive, no EDC, 18s, one owner, decent service records. As far as I could tell, there wasn’t much else worth considering next to this; all the other candidates were either much more expensive without being more fun (e.g. F80, CTS-V), way older with all the issues that brings (e.g. E28), or basically nonexistent in clean well-maintained form (e.g. E46 ZHP). The dealership that had this car was pretty heinous, but things worked out in the end and I drove it home.

With my particular preferences, the crash still fresh in my mind, a bunch of dealer-related drama around the purchase, and having to swap to winter tires almost immediately afterward, it's been hard to come to grips with this car in the short time I’ve had it so far. However, slowly but surely, I’m starting to form some opinions I can trust.

On One Hand...

This sure isn't the kind of car I had thought I'd be driving. Too heavy, too serious-feeling all the time. It’s informative and agile enough, but not alive-feeling in the way I’d prefer. Sound-wise, it’s good, but I’d much prefer the sweeping power chord of a 6-banger.

It’s not all that great at just loafing around, either. The suspension is firm, the engine is constantly growling at you, and there's no escaping the heavy-machinery feeling. It kind of feels like a very agile freight train.

The gauge cluster sucks compared to the R3's – by which I mean it's decent whereas the R3's is basically perfect. Small detail, big impact. The voice commands and sound system are downgrades, too; the R3’s Bose system isn’t very good, but it’s almost hi-fi compared to BMW Professional.

I do like the power, the interior, and the status, but I’d never have sought them. I’d rather have the kind of responsiveness and exploitability that can't really be replicated with this kind of power and weight.

On The Other Hand...

This might seem too obvious to be worth mentioning, but the extent to which it’s true is kind of amazing: the M3 evinces a depth of engineering that even the most Miata-like parts of the RX-8 could never match. And most importantly, I don't think there's a stock 4-door car out there that I'd rather have.

One of the things I struggled to admit to myself about the R3 was how stressful it was to drive. The M3 isn’t. Its NVH is so much more tolerable. The steering helps a ton, too (more on that below). With the R3, I used to get to the end of a long drive feeling like I had endured something. Now I just feel like I’ve arrived, usually having had some fun along the way.

Less NVH and more mass usually mean less sensation of speed (i.e. it’s harder to tell how fast you’re going). Not in the M3. I’m not sure how it communicates speed as well as a much more focused and less comfortable car, but it does, and I love it for that.

As far as I've pushed it, the M3 handles a lot like a grown-up and much heavier RX-8. Less eager and instantaneous, but surprisingly similar in its overall behavior and responses. I haven’t driven it much near its limits, but I suspect that's where the biggest differences are. It seems to have much more traction and doesn't seem to yaw as much with wheelspin. It also seems less incisive and precise, thanks I’m sure to its higher mass, higher CoG, wider tires, and slower-reacting diff. Overall, though, it's almost more impressive in a way. I think the RX-8 owes its talents mainly to the soundness of its fundamentals: low, light, rigid chassis; compact powertrain; really nice suspension setup and geometry. The M3 feels like its handling engineers started with a more challenging foundation but did a better job. I get the impression that both cars are comparably forgiving and flexible, just in different ways. And stock vs. stock, they're definitely comparable by the numbers.

Steering was probably the biggest surprise. I expected the M3 to be a step down in this respect, and at first I thought I was right because the M3’s rack doesn't feel quite as alive as the R3’s overall. But now that I’ve driven it for a while, its feedback seems more authentic and its gain curve feels more natural. Where it absolutely crushes the R3 is at low steering angles. Both cars have a lot of initial gain, which can make a car feel nervous and twitchy; the antidote is to have enough self-centering and feedback that course corrections are minimally necessary and maximally intuitive. The R3 didn’t have enough of that. The M3 does. Small differences, but boy do they add up. They make the M3 feel more trustworthy and a hell of a lot less tiring to drive.

For how firm the M3’s ride is overall, its suspension soaks up small irregularities like a champ. It’s only a bit more compliant than the R3 over medium and large bumps, but it’s far more compliant over cobblestones and the like. Maybe that’s one reason why it has so much more traction.

There’s far less wheel hop, too. Even at over 80k miles with (AFAICT) all original suspension bushings and powertrain mounts, the most I ever get is a little tap-tap-tap where the R3 would have felt like a jackhammer.

The S65 is far better to use than the RX-8’s engine, with much faster and smoother throttle response. The RX-8 liked to jerk and buck with throttle modulation, mainly at low throttle and RPM. The M3's throttle is electric-motor smooth and linear by comparison.

Power delivery is pretty much perfect: sufficient torque, flat torque curve, stratospheric redline, short gearing. If I'm going to have this much speed, this is how I want it.

EPA fuel economy is slightly worse than the RX-8’s, but I’m getting about the same numbers. Being able to drive mildly without worrying about carbon buildup is a game changer.

Overall shift feel isn't as nice as the RX-8's, but downshifting into 2nd without grinding is somehow much easier. Not sure how that works, but I'll take it.

Clutch feel is way better – by which I mean there is some, whereas the RX-8 bafflingly had none whatsoever.

Holy hell do I enjoy having a reasonable oil temp gauge instead of a coolant temp dummy gauge.

The rest of the interior is dead-on. So much nicer without being overly designed or distracting, and ergonomically good. The carbon leather trim – or more exactly, the lack of a contrasting trim color – really helps.

The seats are a mixed bag, but for DD duty they’re much better than the R3’s Recaros. They’re not as well bolstered, but adequate in that respect and far more comfortable.

Hard to overstate how much better the community and aftermarket are for the M3. RX-8 owners with both discernment and money are a rare breed, as are late-model RX-8s like the R3 (which are heavily revised vs. the early ones). You can probably guess the implications for the quality of aftermarket parts and info. The M3 community is a revelation by comparison. Much bigger, with more people who know WTF they’re doing, care about real functional improvements, and are willing and able to commit the resources to follow through.

At the same time, because my particular M3 has a rare spec, I still get to feel like I’m driving something unique even though it’s part of a much bigger community.

Having FCP Euro as a parts source is a quality-of-life upgrade for obvious reasons.

Another quality-of-life upgrade: not having to explain my car choice to anyone. I was getting really tired of dealing with the unreliable-shitbox image.

And of course being an E90, the M3 has real practicality. With a growing toddler and one more kid on the way, this is going to make a bigger and bigger difference with time.

Verdict (For Now)

I miss driving a car that always felt eager and joyful. I don’t miss feeling like I had survived long drives rather than enjoyed them.

I miss being able to go WOT to 9000 RPM at will without committing a felony. I don’t miss having torque like an econobox and throttle response like my engine mounts were busted.

I miss that extra bit of handling and feel. I don’t miss the fact that handling and feel were my car’s only real talents.

I'd prefer something a lot lighter, and I'd prefer 6 cylinders to 8. But that car doesn’t exist in stock 4-door form, barring big compromises. So, here we are, and I think it’s a good place.

Looking forward to seeing how I feel in a year or two. Hoping there'll be some weight reduction between now and then!

m3jala · 12-26-2018, 08:17 AM

So basically, welcome to the crew :-)

I used to own an rx7 first generation back in the 90s. While mine was a classic old car, the handling and rotary engine are quite unique.

Shiza · 12-26-2018, 08:30 AM

Welcome! Get an exhaust and you'll appreciate the glorious V8

Dr. Dre · 12-26-2018, 11:11 AM

In all the years of being an auto enthusiast I've never heard anyone say they prefer less cylinders. I would get it if your follow up was less cylinders might equal better balance but just to say I prefer less cylinders doesn't make sense.

You like the idea of spinning the engine to 9000 rpms but not go anywhere in the process. That again doesn't make sense.

I think you should sell your E90 and buy something else. It will never be the car you want. You would have probably have been better off buy an Lancer Evolution.

Shiza · 12-26-2018, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Dre

In all the years of being an auto enthusiast I've never heard anyone say they prefer less cylinders. I would get it if your follow up was less cylinders might equal better balance but just to say I prefer less cylinders doesn't make sense.

You like the idea of spinning the engine to 9000 rpms but not go anywhere in the process. That again doesn't make sense.

I think you should sell your E90 and buy something else. It will never be the car you want. You would have probably have been better off buy an Lancer Evolution.

I can almost understand where he is coming from. It is a lot easier to push a RX8 to its edge than it is a M3, and that's where you have the most fun with a car. Sounds like he needs to do a track day.

Z K · 12-26-2018, 12:09 PM

Coming from my previous cars, (Mitsubishi Evos, SR20DET powered 240SX) I understand the M3 feels very heavy and a bit soft and disconnected. Try to do some modifications such as coilover suspension, solid rear subframe bushings and it'll feel a lot better.

The M3 is great but I find myself looking at smaller, more nimble cars more and more now that the M3 is not my daily driver. But the M3 is paid for so that has a lot going for it. Not having a car payment is nice.

6ixSpd · 12-26-2018, 01:23 PM

OP, that's a fantastic E90 M3 spec! Welcome to the addiction. You will find that tightening up the suspension really makes a huge difference in how much better the car is to drive (RE: handling) and begins to feel more special than just a daily driver. A set of Ohlins DFV will do wonders while retaining as much civility as possible.

You have to remember that out of the box, the M3 has to be the Jack Of All Trades. It has to commute to the office, take clients, groceries, yet thrash back roads and trackdays all the same. With that comes some compromise in the sport:luxury ratio, but thankfully the car's design and aftermarket support leaves plenty of room for tilting those scales in whatever direction your heart desires. That is a highly critical aspect to E9X M3 ownership that isn't given enough credit, in my opinion.

I mean you have owners on this forum with mostly stock cars and child seats commuting every day and season; and then stripped out track toys on the other end of the spectrum. Not many vehicles exist that can dance at both ends...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reed

I can almost understand where he is coming from. It is a lot easier to push a RX8 to its edge than it is a M3, and that's where you have the most fun with a car. Sounds like he needs to do a track day.

Agreed, this is why I don't get the infatuation with endless HP... The S65 with bolt ons has more than enough to ever be used safely on public roads.

IamFODI · 12-26-2018, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6ixSpd

OP, that's a fantastic E90 M3 spec! Welcome to the addiction. You will find that tightening up the suspension really makes a huge difference in how much better the car is to drive (RE: handling) and begins to feel more special than just a daily driver. A set of Ohlins DFV will do wonders while retaining as much civility as possible.

Thanks for the welcome, and for the tip.

Good to hear this car responds so well to spring and damper upgrades. I thought that might be true from the ZCP and CRT reviews I've read. Suspension mods are a ways off for now but they're in the cards for sure. If nothing else, I'm sure the stock dampers are getting a bit tired at 11 years and 80k miles, lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6ixSpd

Agreed, this is why I don't get the infatuation with endless HP... The S65 with bolt ons has more than enough to ever be used safely on public roads.

That's a big part of it for me.

Not going to argue the obvious appeal of speed. The problem with it is that once you have it all day every day, you get used to it so easily. Every time you increase horsepower, it's not that long until you're not having any more fun than you did before -- but you ARE still hauling around the extra weight, carrying those additional failure points, burning the extra fuel, etc.

The S65 is probably my favorite cross-plane crank V8 for all its talents besides power. Throttle response, tractability, flexibility, smoothness, good sound -- those things are rewarding all the time. So are the knock-on effects of its relatively low weight.

All else equal, 6-cylinder engines are lighter and sound better to me than V8s. We're not talking about econoboxes or NA rotaries here, so having enough power for the street is not a concern. More is gravy, but not at the expense of other things. In this league, I'd rather have less weight and better sound than a few extra ponies.

OTOH, as I said, the E90 M3 seems to be the best car for me right now -- precisely because I want a jack of all trades, even if it is a master of none, as you said. And the E90 M3 comes with a cross-plane crank V8, so that's the end of that. Luckily it's a damn good cross-plane crank V8. :]

IamFODI · 12-26-2018, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z K

Coming from my previous cars, (Mitsubishi Evos, SR20DET powered 240SX) I understand the M3 feels very heavy and a bit soft and disconnected. Try to do some modifications such as coilover suspension, solid rear subframe bushings and it'll feel a lot better.

Was thinking of monoball CABs.

What's the NVH like from those solid rear subframe bushings?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z K

The M3 is great but I find myself looking at smaller, more nimble cars more and more now that the M3 is not my daily driver. But the M3 is paid for so that has a lot going for it. Not having a car payment is nice.

For whatever my opinion is worth, never in a million years would I have bought this car (or the RX-8) if my car didn't need to have back seats. I probably would have bought a Cayman, then a better Cayman.

But if I already had it, and it was paid off... given the possibility that these might appreciate... Man, that'd be a tough call!

spazzyfry123 · 12-26-2018, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamFODI

Thanks for the welcome, and for the tip.

Good to hear this car responds so well to spring and damper upgrades. I thought that might be true from the ZCP and CRT reviews I've read. Suspension mods are a ways off for now but they're in the cards for sure. If nothing else, I'm sure the stock dampers are getting a bit tired at 11 years and 80k miles, lol.

That's a big part of it for me.

Not going to argue the obvious appeal of speed. The problem with it is that once you have it all day every day, you get used to it so easily. Every time you increase horsepower, it's not that long until you're not having any more fun than you did before -- but you ARE still hauling around the extra weight, carrying those additional failure points, burning the extra fuel, etc.

The S65 is probably my favorite cross-plane crank V8 for all its talents besides power. Throttle response, tractability, flexibility, smoothness, good sound -- those things are rewarding all the time. So are the knock-on effects of its relatively low weight.

All else equal, 6-cylinder engines are lighter and sound better to me than V8s. We're not talking about econoboxes or NA rotaries here, so having enough power for the street is not a concern. More is gravy, but not at the expense of other things. In this league, I'd rather have less weight and better sound than a few extra ponies.

OTOH, as I said, the E90 M3 seems to be the best car for me right now -- precisely because I want a jack of all trades, even if it is a master of none, as you said. And the E90 M3 comes with a cross-plane crank V8, so that's the end of that. Luckily it's a damn good cross-plane crank V8. :]

Woof. Can't say that I've ever heard someone say that a six cylinder sounds better than the S65.

Redd · 12-26-2018, 06:26 PM

Welcome! Nice writeup!

Zero NVH on solid rear subframe bushes. They are the first thing you should do, they make the chassis feel one generation newer. You'll definitely appreciate them!

JackieChiles · 12-26-2018, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spazzyfry123

Woof. Can't say that I've ever heard someone say that a six cylinder sounds better than the S65.

The gt3 absolutely sounds better to me. No comparison.

I also think the n/a 3.8 from the 991 with pse sounds better.

But the s65 sounds damn good too.

E90M3velocity · 12-26-2018, 06:30 PM

Welcome, I was actually looking at those when they first came out. Take the car for a good drive to a isolated curvy road or DE, all that M engineering will come together when pushing it. This car is basically two cars in one, a good luxurious car with a great sound when driving normal and then turns into a good drivers car when pushed.

IamFODI · 12-26-2018, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redd

Welcome! Nice writeup!

Zero NVH on solid rear subframe bushes. They are the first thing you should do, they make the chassis feel one generation newer. You'll definitely appreciate them!

Noted. Thanks.

spazzyfry123 · 12-26-2018, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackieChiles

The gt3 absolutely sounds better to me. No comparison.

I also think the n/a 3.8 from the 991 with pse sounds better.

But the s65 sounds damn good too.

I can get on board

Obioban · 12-26-2018, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackieChiles

The gt3 absolutely sounds better to me. No comparison.

I also think the n/a 3.8 from the 991 with pse sounds better.

But the s65 sounds damn good too.

S54 with a CSL airbox and a quiet muffler is about as good as a car can sound, to my ear. Same in cabin sound as a MacLaren F1.

IamFODI · 12-26-2018, 07:44 PM

So when a performance engine sounds good, that's usually because it sounds visceral and aggressive. The S65 checks that box while also sounding musical and refined. No doubt there.

The thing about 6-cylinder engines is that they have an additional natural advantage: because they have three evenly spaced firing pulses per crank rotation, they inherently tend to play chords that humans like hearing. Similar chords appear all the time in music for the same reason. This is in addition to whatever sound benefits (or detriments) those engines get from how they're tuned.

12-cylinder engines have the same natural advantage because they are paired inline-6s. Good inline-3s have similar sound characteristics, which is why the i8 doesn't sound horrible.

A cross-plane crank V8 doesn't have that particular advantage. What it has is a more aggressive sound, partly because it's slightly dissonant and doesn't play such an inherently pleasant chord. The sound is also fuller thanks to the extra cylinders.

FWIW.

sibhusz06 · 12-26-2018, 08:27 PM

Good writeup and very fair comments...I own both a 911 and e90 M3 and coming from a lighter weight car with high revving engine, I can relate with your comments. The M3 isn't quite as nimble as some other cars but when you recognize that unlike the 911, vette, rx8 s2k which are purpose built sports cars, the M3 is evolved from the 3 series platform to give you the best compromise of functionality, utility and performance unlike the other cars.

GT3fan · 12-26-2018, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackieChiles

The gt3 absolutely sounds better to me. No comparison.

I also think the n/a 3.8 from the 991 with pse sounds better.

But the s65 sounds damn good too.

Agreed!!!

The 6 cylinder 996, 997 and 991 gt3s all sound much better than the s65 in my opinion.

The s65 sounds great with an exhaust, but lacks the guttural and primal characteristics of the 6 and 7 mezger and maniacal new gen engines.

Then again an early very high mileage 997.1 gt3 starts in the mid $70s and the price of admission for an s65 starts at only $20k for an early e90/92 m3.

At the budget price point of $20-30k, the s65 has no peers! Amazing how much car you get for very little money. The power of depreciation!

Enjoy your new car OP! I love the spec! I wish I had sunroof and idrive deletes.

Three Pedal Steve · 12-26-2018, 10:05 PM

The S65 is a joy to daily drive. It is like playing a musical instrument, gear selection determining the note, and throttle controlling volume. Try it!

Montaver · 12-26-2018, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamFODI

So when a performance engine sounds good, that's usually because it sounds visceral and aggressive. The S65 checks that box while also sounding musical and refined. No doubt there.

The thing about 6-cylinder engines is that they have an additional natural advantage: because they have three evenly spaced firing pulses per crank rotation, they inherently tend to play chords that humans like hearing. Similar chords appear all the time in music for the same reason. This is in addition to whatever sound benefits (or detriments) those engines get from how they're tuned.

12-cylinder engines have the same natural advantage because they are paired inline-6s. Good inline-3s have similar sound characteristics, which is why the i8 doesn't sound horrible.

A cross-plane crank V8 doesn't have that particular advantage. What it has is a more aggressive sound, partly because it's slightly dissonant and doesn't play such an inherently pleasant chord. The sound is also fuller thanks to the extra cylinders.

FWIW.

Great post. The S65 is a fantastic sound, but its not spine tingling in the way a flat 6 can be. BMW know how to make a good sounding engine. The N54 in the M2 sounds quality, and I don't think the S55 sounds that bad either.

The 3.8 in the GT4 / 991.1 S/GTS variants with a PSE is particularly spectacular to my ear. I think the VQV7 3.7L in the 370z also sounds brilliant due to its high pitched wail but I know a lot of folks don't like it. Money no object the V10 in the Performante is tied for best sounding engine.

Love a Honda Vtec as well, the S2K in this video is electric

OP - Congrats! As an all round machine nothing beats the E90. Get an exhaust on there and you are set.

BimmerMan33 · 12-26-2018, 11:19 PM

Congratulations to OP!
M3 is a great car and this forum is a great resource.

I can understand your opinion coming from an RX-8, driving a slow car fast is more fun than driving a fast car slow, on public roads. That's why you MUST take your M3 to a few track days, that's where this car shines!
M3 feels better the more you are able to rev it, guess that's where it's similar to RX-8!

Overall, M3 clearly feels more substantial than an RX-8, but this being a German car will need it's due maintenence in a timely manner in addition to a few quirks, throttle actuators, thermostat, motor mounts, rod bearings, etc., these are typically not considered maintenence items in most Japanese cars.
FCP euro helps with parts cost but labor can be significant since the engine bay is relatively cramped, you'll save a ton of money if you can DIY, again plenty of DIY info on this forum!!

You could make minor modifications to the car gradually over the course of time to mike it yours!

Enjoy the car & welcome to the M community!

12-26-2018, 07:30 AM	#1
IamFODI Lieutenant 366 Rep 404 Posts Drives: 2008 E90 M3 6MT Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: SE PA iTrader: (0)	RX-8 R3 to E90 M3 Cliff’s: Had an RX-8 R3. Totaled. Got an E90 M3. Now trying to figure out who the hell I even am any more. I initially wrote this for a very different audience, but some M3P members have asked me to post it here. Not sure I see why, but I figure their opinions are more relevant than mine. Fair warning: This is long, and it needs a preface. Necessary Background Car shopping is weird when the things you value most are rare. Having few options makes the process simple, which is nice. But if the few cars on your list are deeply flawed – or, worse, if there’s only one car and it’s practically made of downsides – you kind of just have to deal with it. My most-valued-things list is two items long: 1. Manual transmission 2. Excellent handling #2 really makes things interesting. I don’t have a reason for it other than strong personal taste. I just like cars that are low, light, agile, responsive, feelsome, focused, and faster in a corner than they are down a straight. As long as everything else about the car is just good enough to bear, I’m fine. The catch: My car is my family’s only car, so it has to have back seats big enough to fit a rear-facing child seat behind my wife. Turns out the Mazda RX-8 just clears the back-seat bar. Of course it comes in stick. And in R3 trim, AFAICT, it out-handles any MT-equipped car with equal or bigger back seats, stock-vs.-stock or mod-for-mod – at any price, ever. At least, that's how it seemed in 2010, and it still seemed that way a few years later when my old E36 M3 decided it no longer needed its head gasket. So, after that sad and unsettlingly smoky event, I picked up the 2011 RX-8 R3 you see above. Yes, the engine is crap. Yes, it feels like an econobox in so many ways. Yes, it has EPS, which undermines the one thing it’s good at. Don’t care, don’t care, don’t care. Never did, maybe never will. See that giant derpy shit-eating grin on its front facia? That’s how the car felt to drive, all day, every day, everywhere. And man, did it kick some ass on a backroad. Mechanically, it’s basically a giant Miata with the torsional rigidity of a supercar (30k Nm/deg), and it shows. Even on 225-square tires, it made so many legit performance cars feel like blunt instruments. Damn good car to have for my first open track day, too. Just a perfect platform to learn on. It was also really frustrating in a lot of ways, many of them obvious. It annoyed the shit out of my wife and was a tight fit for her and the kid, to boot. But I had long since convinced myself that any bigger or more comfortable car would be intolerably frustrating, and assumed we were stuck with the R3 whether we liked it or not. That assumption didn’t even crack until my R3 was totaled. Then it shattered. I figured it was half-past-about-damn-time to see if I could tolerate a car that wasn’t borderline unusable with a wife and kid. Wasn’t about to take that experiment in reasonableness too far, though. Baby steps, right? Quite a stroke of luck that this was on the market after the crash. MT, slicktop, no iDrive, no EDC, 18s, one owner, decent service records. As far as I could tell, there wasn’t much else worth considering next to this; all the other candidates were either much more expensive without being more fun (e.g. F80, CTS-V), way older with all the issues that brings (e.g. E28), or basically nonexistent in clean well-maintained form (e.g. E46 ZHP). The dealership that had this car was pretty heinous, but things worked out in the end and I drove it home. With my particular preferences, the crash still fresh in my mind, a bunch of dealer-related drama around the purchase, and having to swap to winter tires almost immediately afterward, it's been hard to come to grips with this car in the short time I’ve had it so far. However, slowly but surely, I’m starting to form some opinions I can trust. On One Hand... This sure isn't the kind of car I had thought I'd be driving. Too heavy, too serious-feeling all the time. It’s informative and agile enough, but not alive-feeling in the way I’d prefer. Sound-wise, it’s good, but I’d much prefer the sweeping power chord of a 6-banger. It’s not all that great at just loafing around, either. The suspension is firm, the engine is constantly growling at you, and there's no escaping the heavy-machinery feeling. It kind of feels like a very agile freight train. The gauge cluster sucks compared to the R3's – by which I mean it's decent whereas the R3's is basically perfect. Small detail, big impact. The voice commands and sound system are downgrades, too; the R3’s Bose system isn’t very good, but it’s almost hi-fi compared to BMW Professional. I do like the power, the interior, and the status, but I’d never have sought them. I’d rather have the kind of responsiveness and exploitability that can't really be replicated with this kind of power and weight. On The Other Hand... This might seem too obvious to be worth mentioning, but the extent to which it’s true is kind of amazing: the M3 evinces a depth of engineering that even the most Miata-like parts of the RX-8 could never match. And most importantly, I don't think there's a stock 4-door car out there that I'd rather have. One of the things I struggled to admit to myself about the R3 was how stressful it was to drive. The M3 isn’t. Its NVH is so much more tolerable. The steering helps a ton, too (more on that below). With the R3, I used to get to the end of a long drive feeling like I had endured something. Now I just feel like I’ve arrived, usually having had some fun along the way. Less NVH and more mass usually mean less sensation of speed (i.e. it’s harder to tell how fast you’re going). Not in the M3. I’m not sure how it communicates speed as well as a much more focused and less comfortable car, but it does, and I love it for that. As far as I've pushed it, the M3 handles a lot like a grown-up and much heavier RX-8. Less eager and instantaneous, but surprisingly similar in its overall behavior and responses. I haven’t driven it much near its limits, but I suspect that's where the biggest differences are. It seems to have much more traction and doesn't seem to yaw as much with wheelspin. It also seems less incisive and precise, thanks I’m sure to its higher mass, higher CoG, wider tires, and slower-reacting diff. Overall, though, it's almost more impressive in a way. I think the RX-8 owes its talents mainly to the soundness of its fundamentals: low, light, rigid chassis; compact powertrain; really nice suspension setup and geometry. The M3 feels like its handling engineers started with a more challenging foundation but did a better job. I get the impression that both cars are comparably forgiving and flexible, just in different ways. And stock vs. stock, they're definitely comparable by the numbers. Steering was probably the biggest surprise. I expected the M3 to be a step down in this respect, and at first I thought I was right because the M3’s rack doesn't feel quite as alive as the R3’s overall. But now that I’ve driven it for a while, its feedback seems more authentic and its gain curve feels more natural. Where it absolutely crushes the R3 is at low steering angles. Both cars have a lot of initial gain, which can make a car feel nervous and twitchy; the antidote is to have enough self-centering and feedback that course corrections are minimally necessary and maximally intuitive. The R3 didn’t have enough of that. The M3 does. Small differences, but boy do they add up. They make the M3 feel more trustworthy and a hell of a lot less tiring to drive. For how firm the M3’s ride is overall, its suspension soaks up small irregularities like a champ. It’s only a bit more compliant than the R3 over medium and large bumps, but it’s far more compliant over cobblestones and the like. Maybe that’s one reason why it has so much more traction. There’s far less wheel hop, too. Even at over 80k miles with (AFAICT) all original suspension bushings and powertrain mounts, the most I ever get is a little tap-tap-tap where the R3 would have felt like a jackhammer. The S65 is far better to use than the RX-8’s engine, with much faster and smoother throttle response. The RX-8 liked to jerk and buck with throttle modulation, mainly at low throttle and RPM. The M3's throttle is electric-motor smooth and linear by comparison. Power delivery is pretty much perfect: sufficient torque, flat torque curve, stratospheric redline, short gearing. If I'm going to have this much speed, this is how I want it. EPA fuel economy is slightly worse than the RX-8’s, but I’m getting about the same numbers. Being able to drive mildly without worrying about carbon buildup is a game changer. Overall shift feel isn't as nice as the RX-8's, but downshifting into 2nd without grinding is somehow much easier. Not sure how that works, but I'll take it. Clutch feel is way better – by which I mean there is some, whereas the RX-8 bafflingly had none whatsoever. Holy hell do I enjoy having a reasonable oil temp gauge instead of a coolant temp dummy gauge. The rest of the interior is dead-on. So much nicer without being overly designed or distracting, and ergonomically good. The carbon leather trim – or more exactly, the lack of a contrasting trim color – really helps. The seats are a mixed bag, but for DD duty they’re much better than the R3’s Recaros. They’re not as well bolstered, but adequate in that respect and far more comfortable. Hard to overstate how much better the community and aftermarket are for the M3. RX-8 owners with both discernment and money are a rare breed, as are late-model RX-8s like the R3 (which are heavily revised vs. the early ones). You can probably guess the implications for the quality of aftermarket parts and info. The M3 community is a revelation by comparison. Much bigger, with more people who know WTF they’re doing, care about real functional improvements, and are willing and able to commit the resources to follow through. At the same time, because my particular M3 has a rare spec, I still get to feel like I’m driving something unique even though it’s part of a much bigger community. Having FCP Euro as a parts source is a quality-of-life upgrade for obvious reasons. Another quality-of-life upgrade: not having to explain my car choice to anyone. I was getting really tired of dealing with the unreliable-shitbox image. And of course being an E90, the M3 has real practicality. With a growing toddler and one more kid on the way, this is going to make a bigger and bigger difference with time. Verdict (For Now) I miss driving a car that always felt eager and joyful. I don’t miss feeling like I had survived long drives rather than enjoyed them. I miss being able to go WOT to 9000 RPM at will without committing a felony. I don’t miss having torque like an econobox and throttle response like my engine mounts were busted. I miss that extra bit of handling and feel. I don’t miss the fact that handling and feel were my car’s only real talents. I'd prefer something a lot lighter, and I'd prefer 6 cylinders to 8. But that car doesn’t exist in stock 4-door form, barring big compromises. So, here we are, and I think it’s a good place. Looking forward to seeing how I feel in a year or two. Hoping there'll be some weight reduction between now and then! Attached Images
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12-26-2018, 08:30 AM	#3
Shiza Captain 1195 Rep 994 Posts Drives: M3, X5, Ram 2500, Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: US iTrader: (1)	Welcome! Get an exhaust and you'll appreciate the glorious V8
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12-26-2018, 11:11 AM	#4
Dr. Dre the doctor 284 Rep 432 Posts Drives: E46 M3 Alpine White Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: CA, Bay Area iTrader: (0)	In all the years of being an auto enthusiast I've never heard anyone say they prefer less cylinders. I would get it if your follow up was less cylinders might equal better balance but just to say I prefer less cylinders doesn't make sense. You like the idea of spinning the engine to 9000 rpms but not go anywhere in the process. That again doesn't make sense. I think you should sell your E90 and buy something else. It will never be the car you want. You would have probably have been better off buy an Lancer Evolution.
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12-26-2018, 12:09 PM	#6
Z K Major General 1889 Rep 5,506 Posts Drives: E90 M3, G20 M340i Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: San Francisco iTrader: (3)	Coming from my previous cars, (Mitsubishi Evos, SR20DET powered 240SX) I understand the M3 feels very heavy and a bit soft and disconnected. Try to do some modifications such as coilover suspension, solid rear subframe bushings and it'll feel a lot better. The M3 is great but I find myself looking at smaller, more nimble cars more and more now that the M3 is not my daily driver. But the M3 is paid for so that has a lot going for it. Not having a car payment is nice. __________________ Auto Detailing Enthusiast!
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12-26-2018, 06:26 PM	#11
Redd Brigadier General 3900 Rep 4,163 Posts Drives: 2010 BMW E92 M3 Dakar Edition Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Malaysia iTrader: (0)	Welcome! Nice writeup! Zero NVH on solid rear subframe bushes. They are the first thing you should do, they make the chassis feel one generation newer. You'll definitely appreciate them!
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12-26-2018, 08:17 AM	#2
m3jala Captain 544 Rep 765 Posts Drives: Jet Black 2013 BMW M3 Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Tysons Corner, VA iTrader: (0)	So basically, welcome to the crew :-) I used to own an rx7 first generation back in the 90s. While mine was a classic old car, the handling and rotary engine are quite unique.
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12-26-2018, 06:30 PM	#13
E90M3velocity Captain 338 Rep 923 Posts Drives: Manual-Slicktop E90 M3 Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Bay Area CA iTrader: (4)	Welcome, I was actually looking at those when they first came out. Take the car for a good drive to a isolated curvy road or DE, all that M engineering will come together when pushing it. This car is basically two cars in one, a good luxurious car with a great sound when driving normal and then turns into a good drivers car when pushed.
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12-26-2018, 07:44 PM	#17
IamFODI Lieutenant 366 Rep 404 Posts Drives: 2008 E90 M3 6MT Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: SE PA iTrader: (0)	So when a performance engine sounds good, that's usually because it sounds visceral and aggressive. The S65 checks that box while also sounding musical and refined. No doubt there. The thing about 6-cylinder engines is that they have an additional natural advantage: because they have three evenly spaced firing pulses per crank rotation, they inherently tend to play chords that humans like hearing. Similar chords appear all the time in music for the same reason. This is in addition to whatever sound benefits (or detriments) those engines get from how they're tuned. 12-cylinder engines have the same natural advantage because they are paired inline-6s. Good inline-3s have similar sound characteristics, which is why the i8 doesn't sound horrible. A cross-plane crank V8 doesn't have that particular advantage. What it has is a more aggressive sound, partly because it's slightly dissonant and doesn't play such an inherently pleasant chord. The sound is also fuller thanks to the extra cylinders. FWIW. Last edited by IamFODI; 12-26-2018 at 09:45 PM..
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12-26-2018, 08:27 PM	#18
sibhusz06 Second Lieutenant 109 Rep 234 Posts Drives: 2011 M3, 2012 X35I, 2007 911 Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: DC iTrader: (0)	Good writeup and very fair comments...I own both a 911 and e90 M3 and coming from a lighter weight car with high revving engine, I can relate with your comments. The M3 isn't quite as nimble as some other cars but when you recognize that unlike the 911, vette, rx8 s2k which are purpose built sports cars, the M3 is evolved from the 3 series platform to give you the best compromise of functionality, utility and performance unlike the other cars.
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12-26-2018, 10:05 PM	#20
Three Pedal Steve Captain 875 Rep 611 Posts Drives: 2013 M3 coupe' 6mt Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Under a Waterfall in Highlands NC iTrader: (0) Garage List 2013 BMW M3 Coupe [0.00]	The S65 is a joy to daily drive. It is like playing a musical instrument, gear selection determining the note, and throttle controlling volume. Try it! __________________ memories: '71 2002 (new), '72 Bavaria, '74 2002tii, '00 540i Sport
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12-26-2018, 11:19 PM	#22
BimmerMan33 Private First Class 128 Rep 195 Posts Drives: 2011 BMW M3, 2014 BMW X5 Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Illinois, USA iTrader: (0)	Congratulations to OP! M3 is a great car and this forum is a great resource. I can understand your opinion coming from an RX-8, driving a slow car fast is more fun than driving a fast car slow, on public roads. That's why you MUST take your M3 to a few track days, that's where this car shines! M3 feels better the more you are able to rev it, guess that's where it's similar to RX-8! Overall, M3 clearly feels more substantial than an RX-8, but this being a German car will need it's due maintenence in a timely manner in addition to a few quirks, throttle actuators, thermostat, motor mounts, rod bearings, etc., these are typically not considered maintenence items in most Japanese cars. FCP euro helps with parts cost but labor can be significant since the engine bay is relatively cramped, you'll save a ton of money if you can DIY, again plenty of DIY info on this forum!! You could make minor modifications to the car gradually over the course of time to mike it yours! Enjoy the car & welcome to the M community!
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