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      11-14-2018, 11:37 PM   #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
Make boost sooner but end up loosing imaging that lol. What good does earlier tq make if you are never at that rpm for a race?
How often you racing ? I have never. Not once. So its actually perfect. I daily my car, so I don't want to be revving to 4k rpm all the time to have usable torque. I want it early.
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      11-15-2018, 01:35 AM   #552
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Anyone have this Harrop Supercharger in their M3 and has raced an F82 with tune? What was the result? Just curious. While I love the V8 and high revving, it definitely lacks torque. This Supercharger sounds like something I'd be interested in.
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      11-15-2018, 06:15 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by Aries326 View Post
Anyone have this Harrop Supercharger in their M3 and has raced an F82 with tune? What was the result? Just curious. While I love the V8 and high revving, it definitely lacks torque. This Supercharger sounds like something I'd be interested in.
It depends on how aggresive the tune is, but you will take all but the most aggressive. Of course the sound from the s65 with a harrop is the real win.
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      11-15-2018, 08:13 AM   #554
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this is why AA and Evolve are the best setups. the rotrex outperforms the vortec by 1-2 psi in the lowend and equal power up top. harrop has better low end but abysmal power up top

harrops gains in feel and performance all around can be achieved with a simple gear swap, bolt-ons and gintani tune.. for about $10k less
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      11-15-2018, 10:47 AM   #555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
My last car made the same tq as these Harrop kits I see posted lol.. the funny part it made it at 3500 rpm. Johns car make 430wtq in a vf kit on a dyno jet as well. Neither one of us has to be above 4K to feel any torq. And on the hwy I don’t drop any gears at all to pass anyone. But when I do it’s a pretty nasty amount of acceleration.
I have no idea what your last car was (I'm assuming your "2009 E90m3 Ess 625kit, Test pipes, TTFS tuned- Sold" - from your profile), I have no idea who John is, and would you be able to post the dyno slips from your last car? Or do you have them posted on s65dynos? http://www.s65dynos.com/DynoDB.php?vType=1&dynoID=1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
Trying to say that even 10wtq drifference the car makes was the selling point is hilarious. The Harrop doesn’t make more tq like it should because the motor it’s. It attached to isn’t designed for it to. That same kit on a ss Camaro makes 550 plus tq because the motor is designed to make low en tq as thenmotor only revs to 6500. I’ve never understood people complaining about using a cars rpms that’s design to rev high. That be like buying a 458 but saying I don’t have the tq of a Zr1 lol...
High revving vehicles are made all the time that utilize the entire RPM band; Porsche 996 (or turbo but that only revs out to 7.7K), Lamborghini LP-550-SC (8.2K Limiter), Audi R8 (the SC ones are reduced to 8.2 limit vs 8.5 limit), Roush Mustang (Revs to 7.3K), etc. - most of these have the powerbands well within 2K RPM range, and maintain power and tq numbers well into the 7-8K range so I'm not really sure if you are trying to compare our type of cars to other high revving vehicles or? The main point in my original post, and others ( M3Post ) was that you get the torque curve much earlier in your powerband, where running around side streets and town you'd have a lot more fun with it and utilize it.

Finally, as for the (assuming) Ferarri 458 vs a Corvette Zr1-C7 - dude...seriously? Apples to zebras. The Ferarri is a 3 year old N/A V12 vs a 2019 big bore LT5 motor with a monster supercharger that most are considering a supercar. But let's assume you're talking an older 2009-2013 model Zr1 -C6 - had the LS9 in those and still had a supercharger. Still apples to zebras.

Look, both kits are great (centri vs posi), I just prefer a better street performing setup then a straight up drag setup that I have to wind the car out to 8.5K to really get max potential is all.
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      11-15-2018, 12:07 PM   #556
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I would compare VT650 to Harrop since the price is the same. The VT650 makes more horsepower and the same or more torque but the torque bump starts at higher rpm. Maybe one day a stage II Harrop will be released that bridges the gap, but that has not happened yet despite years of talk. The later boost of the centrifugal actually suits the available octane better given the high compression motor.

The VT650 will spank the Harrop in a drag race. The Harrop should spank the VT650 in lazy daily driving.
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      11-15-2018, 12:55 PM   #557
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[QUOTE=DukeofAlexandria;23994458]Look, both kits are great (centri vs posi), I just prefer a better street performing setup then a straight up drag setup that I have to wind the car out to 8.5K to really get max potential is all.[/QUOTE/]

This is gold.you might want to relook at them dynos lol. Peak power happens at 82-8500 for the Harrop kits lol. You bought the wrong car I’d don’t want to rev the car out lol. I mean think about what you just said. After the first shift you are back at 7k rpm you telling me you are going to start shitting at 6500 lol come on now. Even on a road course you don’t use the low rpm he’ll even in the tight hair pin I didn’t see lower then 5k on pima county in az. This is like someone driving a civic complaining about reving the car out. You maybe should have bought a f80 if reving a car out that’s meant to be used the way bother you.


I meant c6 z06 I was posting about a zr1 earlier the tq far our paces that of a 458 because they are not designed to use power the same way. Hence the point of our m3. A c6z06 makes more tq than a458 by nearly 100ftq. It’s. It meant to make tq so yes I made the comparisons. It in fact makes the same tq na as a v12 f12 whichbis a 7.3 v12. That pretty sad that a v8 with same size litter and 4 less cylinders makes the same tq. None of those cars make great tq by ratio. But again they are not meant too. They are made to be rev’d out. But to each their own. The comment about not wanting to rev a car is just pretty funny lol.
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      11-15-2018, 02:34 PM   #558
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[QUOTE=Properstyle;23995116]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeofAlexandria View Post
Look, both kits are great (centri vs posi), I just prefer a better street performing setup then a straight up drag setup that I have to wind the car out to 8.5K to really get max potential is all.[/QUOTE/]

This is gold.you might want to relook at them dynos lol. Peak power happens at 82-8500 for the Harrop kits lol. You bought the wrong car I’d don’t want to rev the car out lol. I mean think about what you just said. After the first shift you are back at 7k rpm you telling me you are going to start shitting at 6500 lol come on now. Even on a road course you don’t use the low rpm he’ll even in the tight hair pin I didn’t see lower then 5k on pima county in az. This is like someone driving a civic complaining about reving the car out. You maybe should have bought a f80 if reving a car out that’s meant to be used the way bother you.

I meant c6 z06 I was posting about a zr1 earlier the tq far our paces that of a 458 because they are not designed to use power the same way. Hence the point of our m3. A c6z06 makes more tq than a458 by nearly 100ftq. It’s. It meant to make tq so yes I made the comparisons. It in fact makes the same tq na as a v12 f12 whichbis a 7.3 v12. That pretty sad that a v8 with same size litter and 4 less cylinders makes the same tq. None of those cars make great tq by ratio. But again they are not meant too. They are made to be rev’d out. But to each their own. The comment about not wanting to rev a car is just pretty funny lol.
I'm not sure if you're trolling at this point or serious lol... The entire point of the thread was about lower end band torque numbers, which M3Post and I gave explanations, provided links, and even provided difference pictures as to what current Dyno outputs are making for these kits. Yes, he used a VT-575 kit, but the point was about low end torque in small streets, back alleys, and city driving where it's used much more abundantly. I don't really think I bought the wrong car, but ok.

I wasn't sure of what you meant, since I had to decipher your messages - and now you're changing your argument from a Corvette C6-Zr1 to a C6-Z06. One is supercharged, the other is not, I can't follow these stories anymore, I'm done lol.
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      11-15-2018, 02:44 PM   #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Post View Post
Yes, daily driving (available torque) is what was being questioned and discussed in earlier posts, rather than money. For this reason I added the qualifier = "PS: I chose the ESS 575 VT2 kit for a quasi apples to apples centri vs posi SC comparison".
There is a dyno comparison already posted of the Harrop vs a VT650. I’d buy the VT650 if I had $10k to spend on a supercharger (actually it’s $9500). So that is the only comparison that makes sense to me. Plus it’s the centrifugal kit that is closer in torque to the positive displacement kit, so it’s more apples to apples.
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      11-15-2018, 03:12 PM   #560
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[QUOTE=DukeofAlexandria;23995678]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post

I'm not sure if you're trolling at this point or serious lol... The entire point of the thread was about lower end band torque numbers, which M3Post and I gave explanations, provided links, and even provided difference pictures as to what current Dyno outputs are making for these kits. Yes, he used a VT-575 kit, but the point was about low end torque in small streets, back alleys, and city driving where it's used much more abundantly. I don't really think I bought the wrong car, but ok.

I wasn't sure of what you meant, since I had to decipher your messages - and now you're changing your argument from a Corvette C6-Zr1 to a C6-Z06. One is supercharged, the other is not, I can't follow these stories anymore, I'm done lol.
It’s pretty clear our cars are not design to make tq down low. I posted a car that is design to. There is a term called table top. A m3 will never no matter what you do make a table top graph. It’s not made to. You made some comment about not wanting to rev a car out yet you have a car that is made for just that.


A c6z06 makes the same tq as f12 7.3 Ferrari. When you put a positive displacement blower on a motor like that or even the 6.2 they make instant high tq and hold it to redline. Some making more tq than hp. A m3 is not made to do this. So it’s always mind boggling when people try to force something that’s not meant to be so my comment was you spend money to be slower for some feeling that you have tq where your car is never at to use it.
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      11-15-2018, 03:42 PM   #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Post View Post
Yes, it's a personal preference and the purchase decision depends upon one's own upgrade priorities. For apples to apples, what makes sense to me is to compare SC kits that make similar or equal peak horsepower output, and then compare what peak torque level and characteristics each kit provides, rather than comparing the torque among kits of differing peak horsepower levels.

I understand your criteria is to compare kits based upon cost, but the recent discussion so far has been about comparing daily drive ability. In other words, if two kits make quite different peak horsepower levels it seems unfair to compare their torque levels. However, if two kits make very similar peak horsepower output, then comparing the peak torque each kit provides seems relevant.

We are coming at the drivability question from different directions. While the VT650 kit makes similar torque to the Harrop kit, albeit at higher RPM than the Harrop kit, the comparison doesn't seem to me to be quite apples to apples, because the VT650 kit makes more peak horsepower than the Harrop. Perhaps I am mistaken. Nothing personal. Just a different philosophy toward comparison.
Techianlly a 595 kit makes more than a Harrop depending on where you dyno in the country. A 625kit makes more and so does a 650. And now people are getting aftermarket tunes out side of Ess and there are 625kits making 575 with 390wtq peak. One is up for sale now with a tuning tech tune on pump gas. Car made a peak of 578whp with 401wtq.
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      11-15-2018, 04:24 PM   #562
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Peak torque is irrelevant. Its torque delivery and the point at which it is available. Thats the whole point of positive displacement. No one buys a harrop to have the fastest top end M3.
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      11-15-2018, 06:10 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by XIX View Post
Peak torque is irrelevant. Its torque delivery and the point at which it is available. Thats the whole point of positive displacement. No one buys a harrop to have the fastest top end M3.
m3s in general make flat tq curves so tq really doesn’t change by much through out the band. See graph below at 3500 it’s Bohr 325 and after that stays at 390-400 until redline. That’s under the curve power.
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      11-15-2018, 08:21 PM   #564
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flat torque curve ? Maybe after 3k rpm it is flat, the number one complaint you hear is how little torque there is down low. Thats what a harrop deals with. Dyno's dont even bother looking at that because its all about trying to get big numbers at the top. If you dont understand this there is no point trying to explain it to you, but everyone who has driven a Harrop will tell you exactly the same thing, they are the most driveable e9x M3 available. Its the 1k to 3k range where they make the difference.
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      11-18-2018, 07:02 AM   #565
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Id say lets race, 0-150mph, 40-80, 60-130; identical cars. 1 harrop+exhaust, the other FBO+gear change.

Id wager REAL $ the FBO car walks away from it the entire time, for several thousand dollars less

Last edited by Pro-AM3; 11-18-2018 at 07:12 AM..
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      11-18-2018, 07:22 AM   #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
Plus it’s the centrifugal kit that is closer in torque to the positive displacement kit, so it’s more apples to apples.

Remember that time 2 similar cars were tested, and it was shown that the Rotrex s/c cars made more power, earlier than the vortec, at the same boost level ( 7.5psi/625 kits), and the forums ignored it because it cracked the vortec superiority myth? Pepperidge farms remembers


http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
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      11-18-2018, 09:51 PM   #567
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Keep carrying on about power and racing mate, while the rest of us here enjoy our driveability.
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      11-19-2018, 04:30 AM   #568
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We get it Pro am, you dont like Harrop SCs. But I doubt you can get 100 hp out of full bolt ons. Here is what I have seen on past threads.
Air box- + 5-7
Tune + 15-20
exhaust +15-20
pully- +10-12
Gear Change ??
Net HP gains for FBO= 45-59
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      11-19-2018, 06:12 AM   #569
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The Harrop car will beat the FBO car, but lose to a car with a centrifugal kit that costs the same as the Harrop kit. Like people have said, in daily driving the positive displacement blower produces more torque sooner — it’s all in before the centrifugal has even started making boost. Be great with AWD for better traction. The best recipe for power with a small V8 in the 4L range, though, is twin turbo, which is why BMW, Audi and Porsche are making them.

I’d still take the VT650 kit over the Harrop for an E9xM3. But when I buy another used performance sedan it will be twin turbo V8 with AWD.
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      11-19-2018, 09:56 AM   #570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro-AM3 View Post
Remember that time 2 similar cars were tested, and it was shown that the Rotrex s/c cars made more power, earlier than the vortec, at the same boost level ( 7.5psi/625 kits), and the forums ignored it because it cracked the vortec superiority myth? Pepperidge farms remembers


http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...psiaqz50a7.jpg
Evolve and aa boost run 8-5-9 psi lol a 625kit is 7 psi lol none of the rotrex kits run less than 8 psi.
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Last edited by Properstyle; 11-22-2018 at 10:58 AM..
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      11-19-2018, 10:53 AM   #571
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AA did post one good dyno of a planetary gear drive blower hitting 600 rwhp SAE Dynojet a few years ago. As I recall the boost was higher than what ESS uses on the VT650. I do think those style centrufugalscan iffer a slight low to midrange power advantage over a fixed step up Vortech. They are certainly not like positive displacement blowers, though, in terms of low to midrange power.
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      11-22-2018, 12:31 AM   #572
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There are a whole lot of posts that we need to reply to clarify fact vs fiction. But in the spirit of Black Friday - thought we'd post here that we're going to offer 10% off of kits for those interested. PM for the deal.

Should have some time to reply by this weekend. Happy holidays everyone.
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