Is the Competition ZCP package more desirable?

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by PACarGuy

I get that the look of the CF roof is certainly awesome and does complete the car, but I do actually use my sunroof quite a bit. I open it on nice days pretty frequently, and even when it's not open, I almost always leave it tilted to let air flow through. With how often I leave the gym sweaty, I really need to let air flow through, LOL.

As for the weight, we're really only talking about 11 lbs, which is not going to make or break too many folks. Yes, I realize it's up high where you don't want it, but it's not like it's 50 lbs. If I was racing the car (not tracking, since there's little to be gained other than bragging rights), I would have made CF roof mandatory, but otherwise I like having a sunroof.

To each his own.

You're thinking about the difference between a steel slicktop roof and a carbon roof. The sunroof by itself is on the order of 35-50lbs depending on the BMW compared to a slicktop steel roof. Hence on the E92 the rough guide of ~ 45lb difference has been used for steel roof + sunroof versus carbon slicktop.

As always, the main problem with a sunroof is headroom. With a helmet on, there is no way for me to fit into an E9x with a sunroof without solid helmet to sunroof contact (we have an E90 330i with a sunroof and sports seats), while the slicktop on my E90 M3 yields much extra room.

[TimmyM56]

If you don’t like modding your car, then the ZCP package is the best variant of the E9x you can get (besides the special editions). However, in my opinion, if you want to change it up, like new wheels or coilovers, then it’s a waste of money since it won’t benefit you. It’s really not a big performance increase like the F8x, more cosmetic. I would personally rather spend less on a non-ZCP M3 and buy lighter weight wheels, coilovers, and power mods.

[PACarGuy]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

You're thinking about the difference between a steel slicktop roof and a carbon roof. The sunroof by itself is on the order of 35-50lbs depending on the BMW compared to a slicktop steel roof. Hence on the E92 the rough guide of ~ 45lb difference has been used for steel roof + sunroof versus carbon slicktop.

As always, the main problem with a sunroof is headroom. With a helmet on, there is no way for me to fit into an E9x with a sunroof without solid helmet to sunroof contact (we have an E90 330i with a sunroof and sports seats), while the slicktop on my E90 M3 yields much extra room.

Interesting...didn't know that. I thought the 11lbs was between CF and sunroof. Oh well. I guess I'll just have keep the weight off the most important mod - the driver.
As for helmet clearance, yes, I've heard that can be an issue, though I haven't tested it yet.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by PACarGuy

Interesting...didn't know that. I thought the 11lbs was between CF and sunroof. Oh well. I guess I'll just have keep the weight off the most important mod - the driver.
As for helmet clearance, yes, I've heard that can be an issue, though I haven't tested it yet.

Yeah, it's the reason why a 6MT and carbon roof M3 is about 100lbs lighter overall than a DCT/sunroof version. The DCT is 55lbs or so plus about 40-45ish for sunroof/steel vs carbon roof.

Similarly, it's also why a slicktop E90 M3 with 6MT weighs close to 100lbs less than the "official" US weight since in the US the quoted weight must include all options that will be on 33% or more of cars sold; hence quoted weight on the E90 M3 is with DCT and sunroof.

[PACarGuy]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Yeah, it's the reason why a 6MT and carbon roof M3 is about 100lbs lighter overall than a DCT/sunroof version. The DCT is 55lbs or so plus about 40-45ish for sunroof/steel vs carbon roof.

Similarly, it's also why a slicktop E90 M3 with 6MT weighs close to 100lbs less than the "official" US weight since in the US the quoted weight must include all options that will be on 33% or more of cars sold; hence quoted weight on the E90 M3 is with DCT and sunroof.

Interesting, though I have seen that in some of the magazine testing, the DCT was faster by a couple of tenths than the 6MT, at least in a straight line (e.g. https://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/...t-first-drive/), so I guess the weight is offset by quicker shifts to some extent. It doesn't say unfortunately what they compared (i.e. was it DCT CF roof vs. 6MT cf roof, or was it DCT moonroof vs. 6MT moonroof, etc.) but the car reviewed in the article seems to have a moonroof. Either way, I can see how helmet clearance would be the much more critical issue if tracking is the primary consideration.

[jiggz]

Originally Posted by DSilk

I agree. The sunroof is nothing more than a heavy half-assed compromise. If you want an open car, get the e93. If you want the coupe, get the CF roof. I have a sunroof, and in the past 5 years I have opened it exactly twice. What a waste. I should have gotten the CF roof option.

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Yeah, it's virtually useless.

However! It was a rare day yesterday in San Diego - it was warm but totally overcast (my absolute favorite weather) and perfect for sunroof-open driving. Had the roof open for hours later in the day as the wife and I dropped of the 46M for rod bearings (Kaiv).

But yeah, 99.9% of the time it's closed. If the sun is shining (98% of the time in SD) I want the roof shut, no question.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I have a sunroof in my 08 E90M3. I have opened it only a few times in 8 years. I bought used and the car came with it. You can retrofit a carbon roof. It’s a bit of work but can be done if it is important to you. I think Lang Racing has done some. Get rid of the sunroof, save some weight. Not high on my priority list but if I ever run out of things to do and have some money burning a hole in my pocket, it is an option.

Agree w/ you guys on the moonroof. I personally don't give a lick about the weight savings, I just never use it/shade is always closed, and while I haven't heard too many E9x issues, I had nothing but problems with the moonroof on both of my E46's.

Sure wish the CF roof would have been an option on our generation 4 door M3's

[sleestak]

Originally Posted by PACarGuy

I get that the look of the CF roof is certainly awesome and does complete the car, but I do actually use my sunroof quite a bit. I open it on nice days pretty frequently, and even when it's not open, I almost always leave it tilted to let air flow through. With how often I leave the gym sweaty, I really need to let air flow through, LOL.

As for the weight, we're really only talking about 11 lbs, which is not going to make or break too many folks. Yes, I realize it's up high where you don't want it, but it's not like it's 50 lbs. If I was racing the car (not tracking, since there's little to be gained other than bragging rights), I would have made CF roof mandatory, but otherwise I like having a sunroof.

To each his own.

I would say if you like the "look" of the carbon fiber roof I've seen some people just CF wrap around the sunroof (No, I don't mean over it!) Looks pretty good actually. I've seriously considered doing that to mine.

[SoCalRPM]

Originally Posted by PACarGuy

To each his own.

^ The Truth ^

[aswy6]

Got my car exactly the way i wanted but it came with sunroof. Every time it makes me sad looking at the subroof and i really want to swap it with CF lol

[PACarGuy]

Originally Posted by sleestak

I would say if you like the "look" of the carbon fiber roof I've seen some people just CF wrap around the sunroof (No, I don't mean over it!) Looks pretty good actually. I've seriously considered doing that to mine.

Thanks. I'm not sure how I'd feel about CF wrap around a sunroof - might look a little odd. Also, I kinda feel like if I don't actually have the real thing, I'd rather not pretend

Ultimately, the weight penalty is not something I really care that much about and I do use my sunroof, so to me it made more sense to me to have one. I did waffle a bit for a while though, as that CF roof is badass...

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by PACarGuy

Thanks. I'm not sure how I'd feel about CF wrap around a sunroof - might look a little odd. Also, I kinda feel like if I don't actually have the real thing, I'd rather not pretend

Ultimately, the weight penalty is not something I really care that much about and I do use my sunroof, so to me it made more sense to me to have one. I did waffle a bit for a while though, as that CF roof is badass...

The weight penalty is moot for a street car. The reason to get the carbon roof is because it was available and it's super trick.

My sedan has a moonroof and I don't loose any sleep over it. Now, had the sedans been offered with the CF I would've wanted that for the "cool" factor

[spazzyfry123]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

The weight penalty is moot for a street car. The reason to get the carbon roof is because it was available and it's super trick.

My sedan has a moonroof and I don't loose any sleep over it. Now, had the sedans been offered with the CF I would've wanted that for the "cool" factor

Cut it out!

I always have an internal struggle of keeping my car vs selling it and finding something newer (F80?). Then I clear my head and run outside for a drive and always tell myself I'm crazy to get rid of it. If this is in fact my "forever" car, I'm fairly certain that I'll be cutting out my slicktop in favor of an aftermarket carbon fiber solution. And monoball suspension. And solid subframe. And................

Not to steer off topic. Is the ZCP package more desirable? I think to a certain market, yes. Someone that wants to purchase the car and leave it alone for the most part, it's perfect. For the cars that will be kept in a bubble for their life, the highest tier will generally hold the most value over time.

For guys like me (analog to a certain degree), I wanted the absolute lowest number of options because ZCP is pointless. I didn't want adjustable dampeners - another expensive item that goes wrong and provides no benefit (to an analog guy that will keep it in one mode only - I don't care if I'm running up to the store to pick up milk or anything in between first thing I do is hit the "M" button because I love the crisp throttle) - and I will eventually change out the suspension anyway. I like the 359s, so I bought some. With the ZCP providing little more than a standard M3, and options that I truly don't want, the ZCP option was not even on my list when shopping aside from its cool factor.

So again, for guys like me, it is less desirable. But I want to slap the miles on thick and change out the suspension and and and.......

[EricSMG]

I honestly didn't want the EDC either - it's really just a gimmic. The fixed valving in my 46m is much more natural and, well, you get what you get. It's always good and always the same.

EDC is either floaty, too stiff or way too stiff. I've had half a thought to swap in the standard dampers just because..... I'd be surprised if they weren't at least as good as the EDC. Plus, I just think electronic doo-dads in cars are dumb. Even the adjustable throttle is dumb - just make it right out of the box for fukks sake.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

I honestly didn't want the EDC either - it's really just a gimmic. The fixed valving in my 46m is much more natural and, well, you get what you get. It's always good and always the same.

EDC is either floaty, too stiff or way too stiff. I've had half a thought to swap in the standard dampers just because..... I'd be surprised if they weren't at least as good as the EDC. Plus, I just think electronic doo-dads in cars are dumb. Even the adjustable throttle is dumb - just make it right out of the box for fukks sake.

I've been astounded how well the damping of the non-EDC stock shocks are on the M3. As usual with BMW there is a touch too much compression damping in the rear at higher shock speeds, but handling-wise the shocks are very nice -- well matched to the spring rate and car mass, never any wallow or underdamped responses, always crisp, firm but supple, etc.

The only active damper I've ever thought was worth having is the latest generation of magnetorheological shocks such as on the C7 Vette. They're pretty amazing.

[1MOREMOD]

I thought the OEM e90 was pretty slow and wallowy at the track.

[PACarGuy]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

As always, the main problem with a sunroof is headroom. With a helmet on, there is no way for me to fit into an E9x with a sunroof without solid helmet to sunroof contact (we have an E90 330i with a sunroof and sports seats), while the slicktop on my E90 M3 yields much extra room.

So, after your comments, I got nervous since I'm contemplating doing an HPDE this season, and decided to test out the sunroof with my old autocross helmet (from 13 years ago, LOL). Sure enough, the helmet contacted the roof a bit and door frame aft of the A pillar. I slid the seat back slightly, angled it lower and raised the seat back a bit and that helped some, but still not ideal. But then I tested out a newer helmet (HJC AR-10) and (phew!) it fits much better. I can actually turn my head w/o contact in that one. I guess it has a slightly lower profile than my old Pyrotect. Likely will pull the trigger on one of those if/when I decide to hit a track this summer.

[Denk]

Of course ZCP will be more desirable but I wouldn't kick one of the ugly ones out of bed.