///M3 versus-----ANYTHING GOOD

[e46e92love]

When the the F8x ///Ms first started appearing I was trashing ///M left and right, couldn't be convinced that they had gotten it right and that they were not going down a road they would soon regret. I felt it was the culmination of a 5 year trend where the bean counters had taken over Munich, and that in time, she would suffer financially from her mistakes. I eventually softened my stance and began to consider maybe I was just living in the past and needed to embrace the new......but recently I have reverted back to my harsher stance.

It was not that I don't approve of them softening up certain models, or the focus on turbo implementation in the regular series production cars (btw, I think engines like the N20 are phenomenal every day engines) but rather a general feel like if you did not get every suspension upgrade offered (like the ARS system in the 5s and other upgrades) then the cars would drive more floaty like a Lexus, and less like a BMW. It just felt like they were trying to be everything to everyone for the sake of scale........a dangerous game.

With all of that being said, I test drove the F80 wanting it to be great, especially since i had one kid with another on the way. By all intensive purposes, it was good when tested against itself, in other words, in a vacuum. If you had never been in an ///M and were looking for a fast, practical sedan, it nailed it. Problem is, that was never the mission statement for that car......it seemed the mission statement had changed. Was it fast? HELL YEAH. Did it handle well? On the street, absolutely (since that test drive I have had her on the track and if equipped with the EDC, it handles well) but there was something missing. Steering was not bad or indirect, just not communicative, the whole car just felt BLA. All the intangibles that I felt always made the ///Ms the car of choice despite it many times losing the battle on paper, seemed to be gone.

I think this video (especially the last few minutes, fast forward to 12:30), which I'm sure many have seen, does a great job of summing up what many of us feel is happening at BMW. The soul is dying, and suddenly we are forced to look at price tags, options and other things because there is no longer that "it" factor in the way the car felt or made you feel that is necessary when justifying the price premium.

This is not meant to bash the F8x, hats of to its current owners, still a great car. Nevertheless, it is another reason why I'm currently shopping for two cars (one for the wife, one for company car) and BMW is not even in the running. Never thought I would own three cars, and only 1 was BMW......and not even upset that the other two are not.

M4 versus Camaro SS:

FAST FORWARD TO 12:30-----the place where the ///Ms and BMWs have always shined, they are now beginning to lose and suffer from the same deficiencies that the competition used to suffer from.


Cheers,
e46e92

[Blindside_137]

This really is the main issue that comes up with each new M. The previous was more a more visceral and "raw" experience, but the successor is superior in just about every way.

I for one am glad that the competition has really advanced. I think BMW knows people have a lot of issues with the sound of the M4, which is already being addressed with the ZCP (and I think next gen around 2022 will be their best attempt at exhaust tuning). But for the money (keeping options low) the M3/M4 is one heck of a car that BMW delivered. It addressed virtually everything that people knocked the E92 M3 on.

In a different world I am positive BMW would have stuck another S65 with more power in the F82 if emissions regulations would allow. That would be a fantastic car, but times are changing. And part of that history, or "end of the NA era," is why the E92 is regarded so highly.



Then as far as the other models go. We are in a new age driven by technology. People don't want a car that is fun to drive, they want wi-fi, self parking, auto-braking, lane assist etc... If BMW were to only focus on enthusiasts, they would go out of business. So they have done a fine job, in my opinion, of trying to maintain the balance of a driver focused vehicle with all the creature comforts the masses have come to expect from a car in the 50k range. The more BMW can profit from these cars, the more they can put into testing for M and i divisions. So it all comes full circle. So when it comes to the newer BMW models across the board, I have more blame placed on the environmental restrictions and our tech focused industry than I do for BMW. At the end of the day they are in the business to make money.

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

This really is the main issue that comes up with each new M. The previous was more a more visceral and "raw" experience, but the successor is superior in just about every way.

I for one am glad that the competition has really advanced. I think BMW knows people have a lot of issues with the sound of the M4, which is already being addressed with the ZCP (and I think next gen around 2022 will be their best attempt at exhaust tuning). But for the money (keeping options low) the M3/M4 is one heck of a car that BMW delivered. It addressed virtually everything that people knocked the E92 M3 on.

In a different world I am positive BMW would have stuck another S65 with more power in the F82 if emissions regulations would allow. That would be a fantastic car, but times are changing. And part of that history, or "end of the NA era," is why the E92 is regarded so highly.



Then as far as the other models go. We are in a new age driven by technology. People don't want a car that is fun to drive, they wan't wi-fi, self parking, auto-braking, lane assist etc... If BMW were to only focus on enthusiasts, they would go out of business. So they have done a fine job, in my opinion, of trying to maintain the balance of a driver focused vehicle with all the creature comforts the masses have come to expect from a car in the 50k range. The more BMW can profit from these cars, the more they can put into testing for M and i divisions. So it all comes full circle. So when it comes to the newer BMW models across the board, I have more blame placed on the environmental restrictions and our tech focused industry than I do for BMW. At the end of the day they are in the business to make money.

This is very well said. I've driven all by one M3 (e36) and I agree that people are wanting all the creature comforts as a DD and then a good sports car second these days. M3's were designed in the past as an enthusiast car for people who wanted a more visceral driving experience than a series car.

That being said, I'm not a huge fan of the F80/F82. I think it's great, but it's not for me. My biggest issue is if American car companies can still put a high-revving V8 in their sports cars, why couldn't BMW do the same thing? They are under the same CAFE laws. The days of the bespoke engine is gone and I think that has hurt the brand. But, I do applaud BMW for keeping the manual option for the M2/M3/M4. I just hope they go back to the drawing board and give us our V8 back in the next gen M3!

[D_M]

I'm hoping that the last hurrah in 2020 is a 3000lb S63B44T2 M3. Most of the tooling and development work is already done. I believe if they build it, folks might even be willing to preorder it. I'm getting all lathered up thinking about a 550hp/550lbft M division tuned car.

[pbonsalb]

Maybe someone will buy an E90 with a bad motor and swap in a Ford 5.2L flat plane V8.

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by Haywood

This is very well said. I've driven all by one M3 (e36) and I agree that people are wanting all the creature comforts as a DD and then a good sports car second these days. M3's were designed in the past as an enthusiast car for people who wanted a more visceral driving experience than a series car.

That being said, I'm not a huge fan of the F80/F82. I think it's great, but it's not for me. My biggest issue is if American car companies can still put a high-revving V8 in their sports cars, why couldn't BMW do the same thing? They are under the same CAFE laws. The days of the bespoke engine is gone and I think that has hurt the brand. But, I do applaud BMW for keeping the manual option for the M2/M3/M4. I just hope they go back to the drawing board and give us our V8 back in the next gen M3!

THAT, is my million dollar question I would love to have an honest answer from someone at M.

[Longboarder]

BMW should do what Porsche does and build a limited number of enthusiast street/track cars at a price point for BMW fans, below the Porsche price point. The M4 GTS is a joke because the price point puts it at a place way outside what a BMW enthusiast would pay.

M2 or M4 chassis? Yes. High revving N/A track motor? Yes. Large steel brakes? Yes. Track focused suspension? Yes. Track interior (M performance seats, rear seat removal option, and cage option)? Yes. And price it at a just little more than the M4 and there's a car like the Porsche GT3 but priced less than a Cayman. It would sell. And the penalty from the gas sucking high revving motor would be negligible given the small number of units produced.

C'mon BMW.

[vsix]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

THAT, is my million dollar question I would love to have an honest answer from someone at M.

We all haven't got a clue with what kind of restrictions and billion laws BMW has to deal with.
I also have to admit that I was first shocked and couldnt believe what they did but I said to myself:
I can't be that ignorant and bash BMW for its decidion, something has to be goong on for a few years as Mercedes also decided to go the same route. ( see claimed C63 wich is a turboed 450 )
Again, who knows with what kind of law restrictions european car makers have to deal with!
Maybe that was the only loophole that made it possible for us enthusiasts to welcome an new ///M or AMG?
As I said...who knows....

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by vsix

We all haven't got a clue with what kind of restrictions and billion laws BMW has to deal with.
I also have to admit that I was first shocked and couldnt believe what they did but I said to myself:
I can't be that ignorant and bash BMW for its decidion, something has to be goong on for a few years as Mercedes also decided to go the same route. ( see claimed C63 wich is a turboed 450 )
Again, who knows with what kind of law restrictions european car makers have to deal with!
Maybe that was the only loophole that made it possible for us enthusiasts to welcome an new ///M or AMG?
As I said...who knows....

I agree, I'm not bashing them by any means. In fact, I applauded them in my first post. Most people would argue the V8 was as much of a stretch from BMW roots as the Turbo 6 is now.

I just would love to know internally what their thought process was, or be a "fly on the wall" during those development meetings. Perhaps the plan was to always try going with a Turbo 6, regardless of restrictions or competition.

[vsix]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

I agree, I'm not bashing them by any means. In fact, I applauded them in my first post. Most people would argue the V8 was as much of a stretch from BMW roots as the Turbo 6 is now.

I just would love to know internally what their thought process was, or be a "fly on the wall" during those development meetings. Perhaps the plan was to always try going with a Turbo 6, regardless of restrictions or competition.

No my post wasn't adressed at you, I was just thinking out loud, so to say.
I did red your post and understood your intension, so we're good
Yes to be the fly on the wall and get to know alot of internal secrets, that would definately be it

Only thing that bothers me ...
you know Iam raised a certain way....that just forbids ignorance because of stupidity ( not adressed to anyone )
What I'd like to say is:
Only because you ( that means me ) personally don't understand a certain situation, doesn't automatically mean that this situation is wrong.

Think about it.

[e46e92love]

My biggest gripe is not about the performance of the cars or creature comforts, but the fact that they never won the numbers game, but always was the car of choice when compared to the competition when it came down to "which one would I buy; which one boils my blood".

///Ms were always greater than the sum of their parts, and this video is the same as those earlier reviews except now it's the competition that is greater than the sum of their parts and the ones "I gotta have".

Cheers,
e46e92

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

This really is the main issue that comes up with each new M. The previous was more a more visceral and "raw" experience, but the successor is superior in just about every way.

I for one am glad that the competition has really advanced. I think BMW knows people have a lot of issues with the sound of the M4, which is already being addressed with the ZCP (and I think next gen around 2022 will be their best attempt at exhaust tuning). But for the money (keeping options low) the M3/M4 is one heck of a car that BMW delivered. It addressed virtually everything that people knocked the E92 M3 on.

In a different world I am positive BMW would have stuck another S65 with more power in the F82 if emissions regulations would allow. That would be a fantastic car, but times are changing. And part of that history, or "end of the NA era," is why the E92 is regarded so highly.



Then as far as the other models go. We are in a new age driven by technology. People don't want a car that is fun to drive, they want wi-fi, self parking, auto-braking, lane assist etc... If BMW were to only focus on enthusiasts, they would go out of business. So they have done a fine job, in my opinion, of trying to maintain the balance of a driver focused vehicle with all the creature comforts the masses have come to expect from a car in the 50k range. The more BMW can profit from these cars, the more they can put into testing for M and i divisions. So it all comes full circle. So when it comes to the newer BMW models across the board, I have more blame placed on the environmental restrictions and our tech focused industry than I do for BMW. At the end of the day they are in the business to make money.

I think BMW could have done the turbo game better.

AMG and Porsche did the turbo better in my opinion.

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by Ezio

I think BMW could have done the turbo game better.

AMG and Porsche did the turbo better in my opinion.

Can't argue there

[IL8Apex]

Mercedes deals with the exact same laws that BMW supposedly can't get around, and had to capitulate and do a pathetic-sounding turbo 6. MB instead kept their bad-ass sounding V8, and added turbos to make it even faster!

The M brand is dead. My next car will be a C63S, if I don't get that 997.1 GT3-RS first.

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by IL8Apex

Mercedes deals with the exact same laws that BMW supposedly can't get around, and had to capitulate and do a pathetic-sounding turbo 6. MB instead kept their bad-ass sounding V8, and added turbos to make it even faster!

The M brand is dead. My next car will be a C63S, if I don't get that 997.1 GT3-RS first.

One of things BMW is doing better than MB is using more lightweight carbon fiber materials. The C63 is still a porker.

[FogCityM3]

Not embracing the enthusiast roots (that got the company to where it is) could be the fatal flaw of BMW. Looks like they are attempting to correct it on the margin with the smaller M2 package and may be in acceptance mode. Like the idea of doing limited production enthusiast models like Porsche, but not sure BMW will be able to price that much lower given the development costs assuming they want to achieve category leader status. Glad to see others automakers, including the US ones, to step up and fill the void. I personally know of many BMW owners and fans ready to dump the brand in their next vehicle, unless they want an SUV.

[SYT_Shadow]

OP, I watched that review last week.

I also strongly dislike the direction BMW has gone.

As I'm in the market for another car whose primary purpose will be track use and BMW has pissed me off, I've looked at all kinds of cars to add to the collection.

Z28, GT350/GT350R, Camaro SS 1LE, Corvette Z51/Grand Sport.
My conclusion from a lot of reading on their respective forums is that they are massive piles of dung. Good for measuring male genitalia on an XLS sheet, but forget track use.

Lets go one by one:

Z28: this one seems to actually function. However, it is stripped out yet weighs +3800lb? +200lb than my E92? No thank you. Besides, a magazine managed to overheat one. It seems really fast, ~7"37' on the Ring, but how much of that is simply the tires?
I like the 6MT and the 7L NA engine though!

GT350: overheats almost instantly without the transmission cooler. I understand the 'track pack' is for people who go to the track, but a transmission shouldn't reach 200F in road use... ridiculous. Besides, the extreme vibrations in the Voodoo engine make me think it's going to disassemble itself, which is likely as it's geared to people who like bragging about their cars with XLS sheets

Z51 Corvette/Grandsport: I was most interested in this one. I don't need 4 seats for the 3rd vehicle, so this fits the bill. Besides, the Lightning Lap showed this was seriously fast!
The issue here is overheating. Engine and transmission overheat quickly. I thought the issue was limited to the Z06/7 but no, people have overheated it on their first track day with stock PSS tires. This is on cars that have the tranny cooler, etc.
Imagine what happens when you switch to something sticky!

Camaro SS/1LE: given the absolute disregard GM and other american cars show for track driving and cooling, I have no reason to believe this car serves for anything other than hard parking. Why would a company who royally screwed up their Corvette all of a sudden build a solid cooling system for their cheaper car?

Camaro ZL1 that has just been announced: at this point I think it takes a miracle for Chevy to get the LT4 to not overheat. It's so attractive to get tons of horses for little money but besides the weight, this thing will overheat nonstop.

Other german competitors are barely worth mentioning. The C63 S is a joke. Where do you put your wider tires? They don't fit!! Besides, it weighs 4000lb. Again, great for highway pulls and comparisons.

Alfa Romeo Quadrifolio: so unlikely this car manages to keep itself together. Besides, it's another turbo engine so not much of a difference vs the F80.


In the end, if you want to track it's BMW M, Porsche or a Viper. Or a Miata or a C6 Corvette. That seems to be it. In the end I'll just get an F80

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

OP, I watched that review last week.

I also strongly dislike the direction BMW has gone.

As I'm in the market for another car whose primary purpose will be track use and BMW has pissed me off, I've looked at all kinds of cars to add to the collection.

Z28, GT350/GT350R, Camaro SS 1LE, Corvette Z51/Grand Sport.
My conclusion from a lot of reading on their respective forums is that they are massive piles of dung. Good for measuring male genitalia on an XLS sheet, but forget track use.

Lets go one by one:

Z28: this one seems to actually function. However, it is stripped out yet weighs +3800lb? +200lb than my E92? No thank you. Besides, a magazine managed to overheat one. It seems really fast, ~7"37' on the Ring, but how much of that is simply the tires?
I like the 6MT and the 7L NA engine though!

GT350: overheats almost instantly without the transmission cooler. I understand the 'track pack' is for people who go to the track, but a transmission shouldn't reach 200F in road use... ridiculous. Besides, the extreme vibrations in the Voodoo engine make me think it's going to disassemble itself, which is likely as it's geared to people who like bragging about their cars with XLS sheets

Z51 Corvette/Grandsport: I was most interested in this one. I don't need 4 seats for the 3rd vehicle, so this fits the bill. Besides, the Lightning Lap showed this was seriously fast!
The issue here is overheating. Engine and transmission overheat quickly. I thought the issue was limited to the Z06/7 but no, people have overheated it on their first track day with stock PSS tires. This is on cars that have the tranny cooler, etc.
Imagine what happens when you switch to something sticky!

Camaro SS/1LE: given the absolute disregard GM and other american cars show for track driving and cooling, I have no reason to believe this car serves for anything other than hard parking. Why would a company who royally screwed up their Corvette all of a sudden build a solid cooling system for their cheaper car?

Camaro ZL1 that has just been announced: at this point I think it takes a miracle for Chevy to get the LT4 to not overheat. It's so attractive to get tons of horses for little money but besides the weight, this thing will overheat nonstop.

Other german competitors are barely worth mentioning. The C63 S is a joke. Where do you put your wider tires? They don't fit!! Besides, it weighs 4000lb. Again, great for highway pulls and comparisons.

Alfa Romeo Quadrifolio: so unlikely this car manages to keep itself together. Besides, it's another turbo engine so not much of a difference vs the F80.


In the end, if you want to track it's BMW M, Porsche or a Viper. Or a Miata or a C6 Corvette. That seems to be it. In the end I'll just get an F80

In fair defense of the overheating issues without additional coolers, e92 is rock solid but hard core track use requires additional coolers for M-DCT and other small issues. Not even ///M is truly ready stock for more than slightly occasional track use by a novice.

But points well taken, however, I want to make sure the focus of my criticism is understood: that the soul that made them special is gone, and the thing that made them "better than the numbers" is now what the competition is winning with.

Cheers,
e46e92

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

By all intensive purposes

intents and purposes.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

intents and purposes.

Thanks, you are the second guy to point that out. Mis-typed, and don't plan to change it, because I don't really care much because this is some online forum with friendly discussion.

But anyone else who would like to focus on that rather than the subject, knock yourself out. We could talk about the weather if you guys would like, or your pets, or anything else OT you want to go into. In fact, I like this grammar tolling idea. I'm actually going to run thru all the posts on these forums to make sure everyone has not made any other god awful mistakes such as mine.

Cheers,
e46e92

[Rajmun340]

I think many enthusiasts don't understand how corporate politics and economical background work to determine an auto manufacturer new car philsosophy. When the economy is good and the profits are rolling in, engineers voices dominates and direct the decisions, and the financial guys stay silent in the corner of the room and don't even bother to understand the directions engineers are championing. In 2008 when the bankers pyramidal crook schemes crashed and took down with them consumer spending confidence those corporate financial guys suddenly went on crisis mode lobbying against any innovative or inventive engineering research and started to dominate the discussions influencing all the shots. it has to be cheap to manufacture, profit margin has to be more, anything too edgy or new engineering concepts get axed, engineers job become boring and they don't make the calls much anymore as they used to in 2005 when the e9x M3 concept was designed. This is exactly what happened with this f8x m4/3. Emission regulations alone are only part of the story, but not the main one, it suffice to compare to other german auto engines to see V8 still present. The bean counter at bmw basically made a coup and took over significant power which lead to a whole series of poor strategical decisions for enthusiasts like us : M brand dilution, modular engines across the whole brand with no M exception anymore, moving out of sports cars and into luxury generic car that are performance capable on the side but not as the defining element of a separate M division. BMW failed to keep the lead in this iteration and other brands have not only caught up they're ahead now. The e92 m3 will remain the last desirable bmw track car to collectors.

I actually believe BMW made a conscious decision to axe the M division but rather than making it known, they're dismantling it slowly using the prestige associated with the M logo and diluting it across their lineup of cars until it runs dry. As M becomes nothing more than differently optioned i series (the 435i and m4 sharing a modular n55 engine origin) they'll reach their goal of transitioning out of the M division as separate engineering while milking out its past legacy. Pissing off all legacy M owners is none of their concern as with the disappearance of true distinguished and bespoke M cars they are actually moving away from this type of customer anyway. I believe what we see is a liquidation of the M division over a 8-10 year time period.
For us track enthusiasts bmw will be more and more the wrong manufacturer to shop at for this kind of car. The e92 will become a highly sought after collector's item and marking the exit of bmw from the motor sport driven car design.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Thanks, you are the second guy to point that out. Mis-typed, and don't plan to change it, because I don't really care much because this is some online forum with friendly discussion.

But anyone else who would like to focus on that rather than the subject, knock yourself out. We could talk about the weather if you guys would like, or your pets, or anything else OT you want to go into. In fact, I like this grammar tolling idea. I'm actually going to run thru all the posts on these forums to make sure everyone has not made any other god awful mistakes such as mine.

Cheers,
e46e92

just helping you out. its not a mistake in the sense of a misspelling, which would be a typo. the mistake is in the interpretation of the phrase.