Engine rebuild shops

DMC380 · 03-02-2017, 04:21 PM

Hey all, recently made a post on the engine/drivetrain area, and as part of that problem (something went wrong during rod bearings install) I now need someone to pull down and inspect the engine for damage.

Original thread here: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1358010

Question for the Sydney-siders amongst us... can anyone recommend a shop for such a job? Anywhere in Sydney - don't mind. Just want good, careful work. Are there any forum sponsors in Oz (that do this)? Couldn't see one in the list...

Thanks for anything anyone can offer.

JJH · 03-02-2017, 11:35 PM

Sorry to hear about your issues ...... I'm not Sydney based but I often read on the Aus section of the forum that Advan Performance in Auburn know their stuff. I understand they have done many RB replacements on the S65. Good luck with yours

sidewaymambo · 03-03-2017, 02:13 AM

http://bromspecbmw.com/

please speak to Alastair

DMC380 · 03-03-2017, 02:58 AM

Thanks for the replies guys,

I have tried Advan (too busy for the next few months), and several others. Haven't tried Bromspec yet - but I will. Thanks SWM

I am surprised at how difficult it is to get someone to even have a look at it. Seems everyone is so busy that it's more trouble than it's worth.

Maybe I'll just trade it in for a Hyundai

No... no, I won't be doing that...

Simmeaux · 03-03-2017, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewaymambo

http://bromspecbmw.com/

please speak to Alastair

I second Alastair at Bromspec. He owns a supercharged M3 himself, knows our cars back to front, and is a hell of a nice guy. I get my car serviced there and will definitely be using him to get my rod bearings replaced in coming months.

OzCraig · 03-04-2017, 01:10 AM

Alistair - Bromspec
Stu - BMR

Another option may be to have the workshop drop the engine and ship it to Southern BM. They are brilliant, probably the most experienced builders of the S65.

The other thing to seriously consider here is that the engine is toast.
With the amount of noise it was making I would almost lay money on the bores and crank being stuffed. Unfortunately being Nikasil/Alusil you can't just hone and sleeve it like an old 350 small block.
Downside - The hassle and wait for a refurb block (No new ones left)
Upside - The opportunity to mic the crank and spec size the mains and conrod bearings. Or maybe even throw a bullet proof Dinan 4.4 stroker in there and never worry again

fontana302 · 03-05-2017, 03:50 AM

I've always wondered how the crank surface finish is corrected, big end bores are measured (then machined as required if out of spec) as well as clearances checked & adjusted when the rod bearings are replaced with the engine in the car. If someone tells me they check with plastiguage, you've got to be kidding!

Given the state of some the bearings removed, these issues would need to be addressed prior to installing new bearings (else the new bearings will be no doubt compromised).....

btw, is the core issue here - bearing construction, bearing clearance, bearing concentricity, oil viscosity, oil timing, oil pressure, oil volume, rod sizing, crank surface finish, tune or other?

No way I'd be just changing big end bearings without understanding what the root cause is, & prepping appropriately, let alone just replacing in situ with new (improved no doubt) bearings (irrespective of the bearing coating used - which does generally help to some extent).

Just as a basic question, I assume at least a bearing micrometer is used to measure before & after bearing thickness? Maybe the engine builder can provide you at least those specs ......

Someone told me measure twice, install (or was that cut) once.

Seems like amateur hour going on here. You need an engine builder who knows what he is doing, not an "installer".

OzCraig · 03-05-2017, 05:54 AM

You have a lot going on here. To understand what you are asking let's break it down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fontana302

I've always wondered how the crank surface finish is corrected, big end bores are measured (then machined as required if out of spec) as well as clearances checked & adjusted when the rod bearings are replaced with the engine in the car. If someone tells me they check with plastiguage, you've got to be kidding!

Given the state of some the bearings removed, these issues would need to be addressed prior to installing new bearings (else the new bearings will be no doubt compromised).....

You are referring to the big end in these comments but what is being changed out are the conrod bearings.
When the bearings are removed you both visually inspect and mic the crank surface to check for any major wear issues. Being that the bearings are designed to be softer than the crank if you change the shells out before they spin/go bang the crank is usually fine.
However, if the crank is damaged then it will need to be pulled out and linished or replaced.
The plasti gauge check is often required for warranty purposes and is used to check torque down crush.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fontana302

btw, is the core issue here - bearing construction, bearing clearance, bearing concentricity, oil viscosity, oil timing, oil pressure, oil volume, rod sizing, crank surface finish, tune or other?

That's the 64 thousand dollar question. There are plenty of threads with varying opinions. Have fun reading through them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fontana302

No way I'd be just changing big end bearings without understanding what the root cause is, & prepping appropriately, let alone just replacing in situ with new (improved no doubt) bearings (irrespective of the bearing coating used - which does generally help to some extent).

Again, you are mixing up what is being done to the cars. You are referring to the main bearings but it is the conrod bearings that are being changed.

This is where people on this forum have strong opinions on whether or not the replacement bearings on the market are a 'fix' or not. Personally, even if they are not the be all and end all I am happy to do them if it buys me another 100,000km on the car. The choice is yours, it's all about risk management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fontana302

Just as a basic question, I assume at least a bearing micrometer is used to measure before & after bearing thickness? Maybe the engine builder can provide you at least those specs ......

From this question I am guessing you haven't seen the S65 bearing wiki - http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838

TLDR: Short answer, yes they are gauged. The measurements are all there, have at it.

Hope this helps,
Craig

fontana302 · 03-06-2017, 04:08 AM

Thanks Craig

Just so you are aware, a big end bearing is a conrod bearing (sometimes also shortened to rod bearing)......., not a main bearing. It's the big end of the conrod. The little end of the conrod is the end with the piston (gudgeon) pin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankpin

No confusion here. I stand by everything I've said......

I think my standards are just a bit higher than most.

OzCraig · 03-06-2017, 03:56 PM

Yeah I get that, I build engines. I think it's a nomenclature out of phase situation happening here

Nothing wrong with that at all. I am sort of in the same boat as you. I would REALLY like to know definitively what the root cause of the issue is before throwing another set of shells in there and perform a permanent fix. However the thought of a 15-20k bill to replace a windowed block is staggering.
Something that may interest you is the results gleaned from Dinan's stroker builds. They do a 4.2, 4.4 and 4.6L stroker upgrade. Not a single one of them has failed that we could find. Now all Steve is doing is replacing the crank, rods and pistons. This leads me to believe that the issue of a clearance tolerance may be correct as by Dinan mic'ing and spec sizing the shells correctly the problem seems to be mitigated. An anecdotal piece of evidence is a close friend of mines Dinan 4.2 M3. He has had it for years now, daily drives it and wails on it. Never had a issue with the engine in 50k of abuse.

Ingenio · 03-06-2017, 06:44 PM

Can you get the stroker builds done in Australia at all?

OzCraig · 03-06-2017, 06:53 PM

No idea, but Dan shipped his off to the states and had it done. Not something I would do unless I won lotto!

Ingenio · 03-06-2017, 06:59 PM

Ouch! I thought that might be the case...

OzCraig · 03-06-2017, 07:01 PM

Quick search reveals Southern are Aussie reps for Dinan.
I'm sure they would do it nowadays though. They have a lot of experience with the S65.

Group buy?

Ingenio · 03-06-2017, 07:08 PM

If it's cheaper than a Harrop supercharger I could be in! ?

fontana302 · 03-07-2017, 03:59 AM

Thanks Craig, we are on the same wavelength here.

I've been using coatings on cranks, rods, pistons, bearings, valves for close on 20 years now (have a set of Polydyn coated titanium rods from the mid 90's new still in the box). A coating will never save a design/clearance issue.

DaveDee · 03-10-2017, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewaymambo

http://bromspecbmw.com/

please speak to Alastair

Absolutley correct. Alastair is the goods. Drives a SC M3 himself

DMC380 · 03-10-2017, 11:39 PM

Thanks for your replies guys (and girls...)

I'm going to drop the car down to Alastair next Friday to start the biopsy

Hopefully he can get to the bottom of it and get her up and running again soon.

Fingers crossed. Will let you know how it goes

DaveDee · 03-11-2017, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingenio

Can you get the stroker builds done in Australia at all?

Yes, Mike Weber at Prestige and Performance in Brisbane is the Guru. He rebuilt my motor and did 2 strokers that I know. The performance of both has been oustanding

MFKN3 · 03-16-2017, 03:32 AM

I've had my engine rebuilt twice now, both times it was stroked and re-sleeved.

First time was in the US and second time was here in bris. The first time I had the rebuild (prob 5 years ago?) no one in Australia would touch it or knew what to do. More recently, though, the workshop in brisbane has now rebuilt quite few and I would recommend them.

sidewaymambo · 03-19-2017, 02:16 AM

How did you go? I know Alastair likes to work through weekend when the shop closed on some big job..

DMC380 · 03-19-2017, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewaymambo

How did you go? I know Alastair likes to work through weekend when the shop closed on some big job..

Nothing heard as yet. He did say he was going to a buck's party on Saturday arvo... and I'm gonna guess Sunday could well have been a write off as a result!

Will let you know when I know. 'Tis an anxious wait...

03-02-2017, 04:21 PM	#1
DMC380 Enlisted Member 50 Rep 37 Posts Drives: 2010 E90 M3 Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Sydney iTrader: (0)	Engine rebuild shops - Sydney? Hey all, recently made a post on the engine/drivetrain area, and as part of that problem (something went wrong during rod bearings install) I now need someone to pull down and inspect the engine for damage. Original thread here: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1358010 Question for the Sydney-siders amongst us... can anyone recommend a shop for such a job? Anywhere in Sydney - don't mind. Just want good, careful work. Are there any forum sponsors in Oz (that do this)? Couldn't see one in the list... Thanks for anything anyone can offer.
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03-02-2017, 11:35 PM	#2
JJH Major 542 Rep 1,107 Posts Drives: IB E92 M3 DCT; SG E90 325i Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Canberra, Australia iTrader: (1)	Sorry to hear about your issues ...... I'm not Sydney based but I often read on the Aus section of the forum that Advan Performance in Auburn know their stuff. I understand they have done many RB replacements on the S65. Good luck with yours __________________
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03-03-2017, 02:13 AM	#3
sidewaymambo Enlisted Member 6 Rep 46 Posts Drives: 07 E92 M3 Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Sydney Australia iTrader: (0)	http://bromspecbmw.com/ please speak to Alastair
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03-03-2017, 02:58 AM	#4
DMC380 Enlisted Member 50 Rep 37 Posts Drives: 2010 E90 M3 Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Sydney iTrader: (0)	Thanks for the replies guys, I have tried Advan (too busy for the next few months), and several others. Haven't tried Bromspec yet - but I will. Thanks SWM I am surprised at how difficult it is to get someone to even have a look at it. Seems everyone is so busy that it's more trouble than it's worth. Maybe I'll just trade it in for a Hyundai No... no, I won't be doing that...
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03-04-2017, 01:10 AM	#6
OzCraig Private First Class 64 Rep 170 Posts Drives: 09 E90, DCT, Space Grey Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Sydney AU iTrader: (0)	Alistair - Bromspec Stu - BMR Another option may be to have the workshop drop the engine and ship it to Southern BM. They are brilliant, probably the most experienced builders of the S65. The other thing to seriously consider here is that the engine is toast. With the amount of noise it was making I would almost lay money on the bores and crank being stuffed. Unfortunately being Nikasil/Alusil you can't just hone and sleeve it like an old 350 small block. Downside - The hassle and wait for a refurb block (No new ones left) Upside - The opportunity to mic the crank and spec size the mains and conrod bearings. Or maybe even throw a bullet proof Dinan 4.4 stroker in there and never worry again Last edited by OzCraig; 03-04-2017 at 05:25 PM..
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03-05-2017, 03:50 AM	#7
fontana302 Private First Class 6 Rep 105 Posts Drives: 2012 E90 M3 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia iTrader: (0)	I've always wondered how the crank surface finish is corrected, big end bores are measured (then machined as required if out of spec) as well as clearances checked & adjusted when the rod bearings are replaced with the engine in the car. If someone tells me they check with plastiguage, you've got to be kidding! Given the state of some the bearings removed, these issues would need to be addressed prior to installing new bearings (else the new bearings will be no doubt compromised)..... btw, is the core issue here - bearing construction, bearing clearance, bearing concentricity, oil viscosity, oil timing, oil pressure, oil volume, rod sizing, crank surface finish, tune or other? No way I'd be just changing big end bearings without understanding what the root cause is, & prepping appropriately, let alone just replacing in situ with new (improved no doubt) bearings (irrespective of the bearing coating used - which does generally help to some extent). Just as a basic question, I assume at least a bearing micrometer is used to measure before & after bearing thickness? Maybe the engine builder can provide you at least those specs ...... Someone told me measure twice, install (or was that cut) once. Seems like amateur hour going on here. You need an engine builder who knows what he is doing, not an "installer". Last edited by fontana302; 03-05-2017 at 03:55 AM..
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03-06-2017, 04:08 AM	#9
fontana302 Private First Class 6 Rep 105 Posts Drives: 2012 E90 M3 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia iTrader: (0)	Thanks Craig Just so you are aware, a big end bearing is a conrod bearing (sometimes also shortened to rod bearing)......., not a main bearing. It's the big end of the conrod. The little end of the conrod is the end with the piston (gudgeon) pin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankpin No confusion here. I stand by everything I've said...... I think my standards are just a bit higher than most. Last edited by fontana302; 03-06-2017 at 04:24 AM..
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03-06-2017, 03:56 PM	#10
OzCraig Private First Class 64 Rep 170 Posts Drives: 09 E90, DCT, Space Grey Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Sydney AU iTrader: (0)	Yeah I get that, I build engines. I think it's a nomenclature out of phase situation happening here Nothing wrong with that at all. I am sort of in the same boat as you. I would REALLY like to know definitively what the root cause of the issue is before throwing another set of shells in there and perform a permanent fix. However the thought of a 15-20k bill to replace a windowed block is staggering. Something that may interest you is the results gleaned from Dinan's stroker builds. They do a 4.2, 4.4 and 4.6L stroker upgrade. Not a single one of them has failed that we could find. Now all Steve is doing is replacing the crank, rods and pistons. This leads me to believe that the issue of a clearance tolerance may be correct as by Dinan mic'ing and spec sizing the shells correctly the problem seems to be mitigated. An anecdotal piece of evidence is a close friend of mines Dinan 4.2 M3. He has had it for years now, daily drives it and wails on it. Never had a issue with the engine in 50k of abuse.
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03-06-2017, 06:44 PM	#11
Ingenio Major 179 Rep 1,171 Posts Drives: 2008 Space Grey E92 M3 (6MT) Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Perth iTrader: (0)	Can you get the stroker builds done in Australia at all?
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03-06-2017, 06:53 PM	#12
OzCraig Private First Class 64 Rep 170 Posts Drives: 09 E90, DCT, Space Grey Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Sydney AU iTrader: (0)	No idea, but Dan shipped his off to the states and had it done. Not something I would do unless I won lotto!
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03-06-2017, 06:59 PM	#13
Ingenio Major 179 Rep 1,171 Posts Drives: 2008 Space Grey E92 M3 (6MT) Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Perth iTrader: (0)	Ouch! I thought that might be the case...
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03-06-2017, 07:01 PM	#14
OzCraig Private First Class 64 Rep 170 Posts Drives: 09 E90, DCT, Space Grey Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Sydney AU iTrader: (0)	Quick search reveals Southern are Aussie reps for Dinan. I'm sure they would do it nowadays though. They have a lot of experience with the S65. Group buy?
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03-06-2017, 07:08 PM	#15
Ingenio Major 179 Rep 1,171 Posts Drives: 2008 Space Grey E92 M3 (6MT) Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Perth iTrader: (0)	If it's cheaper than a Harrop supercharger I could be in! ?
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03-07-2017, 03:59 AM	#16
fontana302 Private First Class 6 Rep 105 Posts Drives: 2012 E90 M3 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia iTrader: (0)	Thanks Craig, we are on the same wavelength here. I've been using coatings on cranks, rods, pistons, bearings, valves for close on 20 years now (have a set of Polydyn coated titanium rods from the mid 90's new still in the box). A coating will never save a design/clearance issue.
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03-10-2017, 11:39 PM	#18
DMC380 Enlisted Member 50 Rep 37 Posts Drives: 2010 E90 M3 Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Sydney iTrader: (0)	Thanks for your replies guys (and girls...) I'm going to drop the car down to Alastair next Friday to start the biopsy Hopefully he can get to the bottom of it and get her up and running again soon. Fingers crossed. Will let you know how it goes
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03-16-2017, 03:32 AM	#20
MFKN3 Colonel 127 Rep 2,224 Posts Drives: supercharged 4.4L stroker E92 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Australia iTrader: (2)	I've had my engine rebuilt twice now, both times it was stroked and re-sleeved. First time was in the US and second time was here in bris. The first time I had the rebuild (prob 5 years ago?) no one in Australia would touch it or knew what to do. More recently, though, the workshop in brisbane has now rebuilt quite few and I would recommend them.
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03-19-2017, 02:16 AM	#21
sidewaymambo Enlisted Member 6 Rep 46 Posts Drives: 07 E92 M3 Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Sydney Australia iTrader: (0)	How did you go? I know Alastair likes to work through weekend when the shop closed on some big job..
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