▀▄ eas | S65 Rod Bearing Replacement: An ongoing "Journal"

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

He didn't leave it hanging, there is only one solution...... Adding clearance!

Unfortunately adding clearance on the S65 or S85 involves removing the engine and having the crank journals ground to a diameter that will give you proper clearance. It will be a little more expensive to do this than a simple bearing swap, the thing is the bearing swaps will be an ongoing affair but adding the clearance will be a one time thing!

One thing is clear to me from your statements about oil level is that you are misunderstanding the cavitation and starvation statements as being starvation due to oil level. The S65 would probably have to be 5-6 litres low on oil before it would affect pressure and cause a starvation/cavitation issue. The sump size in the engine is 9L because it is necessary to have it that large for a number of reasons........ Cooling, de-aeration of the oil, and ability to use the long drain intervals used by BMW are the biggest reasons. Cavitation/starvation as stated by myself and Kawasaki00 is due to the inability of the TWS to flow before it has reached operating temperatures given the tight clearance numbers used by the S65/S85.

Thank you

[Transfer]

This plus DCT uncertainties is exactly why I'm getting a 7/100k extended warranty when I'm up in 2014.

[positiveions]

This is scary. I'm thinking about using Mobile 1 0w-40 on my next oil change.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by WallyM5

As time goes on and miles start to add up you will see more bearing pictures, but for now it's clear you will need to change your bearings as a regular part of maintenance for the S65 & S85 motors.

Bearings at 50,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...50k-miles.html

Bearings at 64,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...res-2-s85.html

Bearings at 84,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...000-miles.html

Bearings at 94,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...000-miles.html

I've got about four or five more sets of pictures from S65. Most are posted on this forum, I just collected them in one place. One or two others I don't think have been posted before. I'll see if I can get all these posted in one place.

Originally Posted by nullrouted

Has anyone actually done this to the S65? I was looking at the Dinan and RD stroker versions of the S65 for this reason. They have much better rods (and I assume, rod bearings) as well as lower compression rates for FI applications.

Same factory bearings, but clearances set properly.

I would be willing to bet their clearances are better as well, since the engines are blueprinted and bored. I don't think anyone has done an FI stroker build, but I would love to see it tried.

Yes the FI Stroker was done already, back in early 2010. A second one was built for a guy in Greece, but I never heard how that one turned out.

[rantarM3]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

He didn't leave it hanging, there is only one solution...... Adding clearance!

Unfortunately adding clearance on the S65 or S85 involves removing the engine and having the crank journals ground to a diameter that will give you proper clearance. It will be a little more expensive to do this than a simple bearing swap, the thing is the bearing swaps will be an ongoing affair but adding the clearance will be a one time thing!

One thing is clear to me from your statements about oil level is that you are misunderstanding the cavitation and starvation statements as being starvation due to oil level. The S65 would probably have to be 5-6 litres low on oil before it would affect pressure and cause a starvation/cavitation issue. The sump size in the engine is 9L because it is necessary to have it that large for a number of reasons........ Cooling, de-aeration of the oil, and ability of the oil to maintain a high enough TBN make it between the long drain intervals prescribed by BMW are a few reasons. Cavitation/starvation as stated by myself and Kawasaki00 is due to the inability of the TWS to flow before it has reached operating temperatures given the tight clearance numbers used by the S65/S85.

How does the cost of replacing the bearings at 50k miles compare to pulling the whole engine and having the crank journal ground? I can only guess that replacing the bearings would be much cheaper. No?

[W///]

Originally Posted by rantarM3

How does the cost of replacing the bearings at 50k miles compare to pulling the whole engine and having the crank journal ground? I can only guess that replacing the bearings would be much cheaper. No?

It should be. To pull the engine and doing work on the crank takes way more labor (thus hours).

My plan is to do it the "wrong" way by installing new OEM bearings and running 0W40. See what happens 50k miles from then.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by rantarM3

How does the cost of replacing the bearings at 50k miles compare to pulling the whole engine and having the crank journal ground? I can only guess that replacing the bearings would be much cheaper. No?

Let's assume you want to replace the rod bearings every 50,000 miles and calculate the long term costs to 300,000 miles based on that. You end up spending $2,400 for each bearing replacement (labor included) at 50k, 100k, 150k, 200k, 250k, and 300k. You've spent $14,400 going this approach and gets you to 350,000 miles.

Now look at the cost to do remove the motor and have the crank machined starting at 50,000 miles. If you go this route, the motor could/should last another 300,000 miles. The cost for this approach will be approximately $5,500 if you don't rebuild the entire engine at the same time and about $10,500 if you do (includes new pistons, etc.). I think most people will opt for the $5200 route, which is just above the cost of two bearing replacements without resizing the crank. This approach also gets you to 350k miles.

I realize that some people may choose 80k miles for change intervals, and it may cost less than $2400 each time (depending on the shop). I also realize some may not see 300k miles out of their engines. Whatever change intervals, total miles, and prices you feel comfortable choosing, just plug them in and see if it's more cost effective for you to have the crank reworked instead.

[rantarM3]

Originally Posted by W///

It should be. To pull the engine and doing work on the crank takes way more labor (thus hours).

My plan is to do it the "wrong" way by installing new OEM bearings and running 0W40. See what happens 50k miles from then.

I'll probably just do the bearings when the times comes as well.

Originally Posted by regular guy

Let's assume you want to replace the rod bearings every 50,000 miles and calculate the long term costs to 300,000 miles based on that. You end up spending $2,400 for each bearing replacement (labor included) at 50k, 100k, 150k, 200k, 250k, and 300k. You've spent $14,400 going this approach and gets you to 350,000 miles.

Now look at the cost to do remove the motor and have the crank machined starting at 50,000 miles. If you go this route, the motor could/should last another 300,000 miles. The cost for this approach will be approximately $5,500 if you don't rebuild the entire engine at the same time and about $10,500 if you do (includes new pistons, etc.). I think most people will opt for the $5200 route, which is just above the cost of two bearing replacements without resizing the crank. This approach also gets you to 350k miles.

I realize that some people may choose 80k miles for change intervals, and it may cost less than $2400 each time (depending on the shop). I also realize some may not see 300k miles out of their engines. Whatever change intervals, total miles, and prices you feel comfortable choosing, just plug them in and see if it's more cost effective for you to have the crank reworked instead.

Thanks for the information. I think, at least for me, that changing just the bearings is more palatable not only because of cost but because of the inherent risk of poor workmanship in having the entire engine pulled and the journals ground. If there were a shop in my area that I would trust with something like this then it would be easier to swing towards the "correct" fix, but there's not (at least that I'm aware of). It's the unfortunate reality these days.

By the way, I've not seen anyone ask this but would the journals be slightly out of round after thousands of miles smacking the top bearings like they do? I understand that bearings are softer metal and should wear first but has anyone checked the journals for roundness after pulling the bearings? Or is a visual inspection to confirm there is no scoring all that is done?

[W///]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Let's assume you want to replace the rod bearings every 50,000 miles and calculate the long term costs to 300,000 miles based on that. You end up spending $2,400 for each bearing replacement (labor included) at 50k, 100k, 150k, 200k, 250k, and 300k. You've spent $14,400 going this approach and gets you to 350,000 miles.

Now look at the cost to do remove the motor and have the crank machined starting at 50,000 miles. If you go this route, the motor could/should last another 300,000 miles. The cost for this approach will be approximately $5,500 if you don't rebuild the entire engine at the same time and about $10,500 if you do (includes new pistons, etc.). I think most people will opt for the $5200 route, which is just above the cost of two bearing replacements without resizing the crank. This approach also gets you to 350k miles.

I realize that some people may choose 80k miles for change intervals, and it may cost less than $2400 each time (depending on the shop). I also realize some may not see 300k miles out of their engines. Whatever change intervals, total miles, and prices you feel comfortable choosing, just plug them in and see if it's more cost effective for you to have the crank reworked instead.

For me, it's definitely switching the bearings out, rather than pulling the crank out. It'll take me a while to put 50k miles on the car.

I know running oil thinner oil is only a band-aid, but who knows, maybe that can really extend the life of the bearings?

[e92zero]

I am with rantarM3 on this for the simple fact that there isn't a reputable shop around my area that I trust for these kind of machine work so at some point I will change the bearings out myself.

There are like 3 threads going on at the same time regarding these bearings. In one of the threads, it quoted Duschanio from M5board that the new bearing is actually harder than the old one and without lead. Is there any concern with this like it's actually going to make the clearance problem worse or that the crank journal will get damaged easier/earlier, etc?

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by biggynuts01

Tom, can you give us the estimated cost (including bearings)?

We cannot discuss pricing here, but just posted details in the [SPONSORS Classifieds/Groupbuys/Specials Area > Engine | Drivetrain | Exhaust] section of the forum.

PM coming shortly.

Originally Posted by leigh

What bearings does ESS sell with there 650 kit?

Believe they are OEM, but the revised part number. I'll find out to be 100% certain.

Originally Posted by e92zero

I am with rantarM3 on this for the simple fact that there isn't a reputable shop around my area that I trust for these kind of machine work so at some point I will change the bearings out myself.

There are like 3 threads going on at the same time regarding these bearings. In one of the threads, it quoted Duschanio from M5board that the new bearing is actually harder than the old one and without lead. Is there any concern with this like it's actually going to make the clearance problem worse or that the crank journal will get damaged easier/earlier, etc?

If you're not 100% confident on DIY, we can arrange transport for you and handle it on our end. Tt's not as expensive as one would think.

Originally Posted by Transfer

This plus DCT uncertainties is exactly why I'm getting a 7/100k extended warranty when I'm up in 2014.

Very good idea. Only time will tell how this plays out.

Originally Posted by WallyM5

As time goes on and miles start to add up you will see more bearing pictures, but for now it's clear you will need to change your bearings as a regular part of maintenance for the S65 & S85 motors.

Bearings at 50,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...50k-miles.html

Bearings at 64,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...res-2-s85.html

Bearings at 84,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...000-miles.html

Bearings at 94,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...000-miles.html

We have had several M5 members have to replace the engine as well because of rod bearing issues as well. Most under 60,000 miles. So to say that we don't see it, is just because there are so few that actually participate on the forums. But it is happening and truth is it's no big deal. You are looking at $500-700 in parts and 12-16 hours in labor. I changed mine in the garage so it is a DIY as well. We also have a member over in Germany that changes them regularly and his friend is one of the M engineers that travels around to the various dealership and see alot of M car, he stated it is a very common problem that can be prevented.

Thanks for taking the time to post, it's starting to look more and more like a serious issue. For those looking to keep their vehicles for a while, it's a good idea to have them inspected or at least obtain extended warranty.

I doubt that we will see any official announcement on this. Reports are few and far in between within the 50K warranty window. I do know of a couple instances, of happening as low as ~20K .

[PandaM3]

Problem with switching out just the bearings is that there is no way to tell if the crank journals (i think thats the part that makes contacts with the bearings) is out of round unless the crank is taken out and sent to a machine shop for resurfacing.

If the rod journals are even just slightly out of round... The new bearings will last much less than before... The clearances are so small to begin with that if anything is off then you are waisting money.

Doing a quick google search on rod bearing replacement for other cars... If just replacing the rod bearings its recommended to get rod bearings with slightly more clearance to compensate... But there are no replacement bearings that have slightly more clearance so the only option is to machine down the crank journals to proper clearances.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by PandaM3

Problem with switching out just the bearings is that there is no way to tell if the crank journals (i think thats the part that makes contacts with the bearings) is out of round unless the crank is taken out and sent to a machine shop for resurfacing.

If the rod journals are even just slightly out of round... The new bearings will last much less than before... The clearances are so small to begin with that if anything is off then you are waisting money.

Doing a quick google search on rod bearing replacement for other cars... If just replacing the rod bearings its recommended to get rod bearings with slightly more clearance to compensate... But there are no replacement bearings that have slightly more clearance so the only option is to machine down the crank journals to proper clearances.

The only way the crank journal is going to be out of round is if it was that way from factory.

[Someone?]

If you find some poorly worn bearings on a bearing change dont you have the turn the crank? i mean you shouldn't put new bearings on a crank that has wear damage.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by ibmike

If you find some poorly worn bearings on a bearing change dont you have the turn the crank? i mean you shouldn't put new bearings on a crank that has wear damage.

while this is sometimes true it is not always the case, many times the journals are still serviceable as long as the bearings were caught in time!

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

while this is sometimes true it is not always the case, many times the journals are still serviceable as long as the bearings were caught in time!

True, the crank is so much harder that the shell that many times it can almost beat the bearing clear out and still be fine to polish and run again.

[kawasaki00]

EAS, could you take a picture of the actual part number on each bearing shell and post it?

[happos2]

For people with Warranties, I would be careful if you plan on running different oil. While it may prolong the life of your bearings, you have voided your warranty since the oil is not approved (or so that is my understanding). Therefore, if you are under warranty and your engine goes ca-put, hopefully BMW will not take an oil sample and determine that you were running the wrong oil and voild your warranty.

This is my understanding and please correct me if I am wrong (I have been wrong before!!)

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by happos2

For people with Warranties, I would be careful if you plan on running different oil. While it may prolong the life of your bearings, you have voided your warranty since the oil is not approved (or so that is my understanding). Therefore, if you are under warranty and your engine goes ca-put, hopefully BMW will not take an oil sample and determine that you were running the wrong oil and voild your warranty.

This is my understanding and please correct me if I am wrong (I have been wrong before!!)

This is 100% true! I am quite sure the first thing they would do is sample the oil! This is mostly aimed at people who are out of warranty, hence changing bearings on their own dime. My self, I am almost out of warranty so I will be changing to 0W40 next oil change.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

EAS, could you take a picture of the actual part number on each bearing shell and post it?

There are no part numbers are present on the VAC coated bearings, sorry.

[happos2]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

This is 100% true! I am quite sure the first thing they would do is sample the oil! This is mostly aimed at people who are out of warranty, hence changing bearings on their own dime. My self, I am almost out of warranty so I will be changing to 0W40 next oil change.

Good deal. I just wanted to make sure the information is out there!

[flipmeraz]

How about sending the new OEM bearings to WPC? It's not a coating but a treatment that's done on the bearings. They have some videos on youtube. That would probably help a bit with the wear.