▀▄ eas | S65 Rod Bearing Replacement: An ongoing "Journal"

[SYZ]

So why are coated bearings being installed if it reduces the already tight clearances? Why aren't OEM non-coated bearings utilized instead? Makes no sense.

[PandaM3]

Originally Posted by TrevorM3

While there may be alot of motors with the issue you just cannot assume that.

We are on the internet, everything that happens on a forum is magnified.

It's kinda like the SMG on the e46M3, before i bought mine if I googled SMG all i would get is horror stories. It was unbelievable. I still ended up buying it without a day of warranty. And that bad boy never skipped a beat. And even the new owner hasn't had any issues. Although the timing chain blew.

Are there any threads of a tear down that hasn't showed a rod bearing issue?

Just when i got my anxiety under control... This happens

\ 2008 82k miles Stock Rod Bearing Replacement / http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=880672

I know how to get BMW NA's attention on this... Keep bumping these threads until it gets on Jalopnik

[DATM3]

Damn, all these rod bearing threads are making me feel like I am driving a ticking time bomb. I have 74K miles on the ODO with 16K SC'ed. I was going to buy my rear BBK, but I might have to reconsider for some bearing replacements.

[signes]

[rantarM3]

Originally Posted by PandaM3

Are there any threads of a tear down that hasn't showed a rod bearing issue?

Just when i got my anxiety under control... This happens

\ 2008 82k miles Stock Rod Bearing Replacement / http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=880672

I know how to get BMW NA's attention on this... Keep bumping these threads until it gets on Jalopnik

It would be good if members that decide to check their rod bearings catalogue everything and post photos. At first I thought the worn bearings were isolated occurrences but the new thread has me questioning that thought. That's why its so important that those who decide to tackle the replacement post photos and as much information as possible.

[happos2]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

It doesn't concern you that just about every S65/85 (share the same bearings and journal sizes) motor tear down for one reason or another, has shown worn bearings, and some extremely worn?

No not yet. Out of all of the M3's on the road, we have a select small population on this forum. Then, there is even smaller population that has actually shown bearing wear (as most people haven't looked at this time). I have also only heard of a few engine blows, but nothing correlating them to the rod-bearings.

[WallyM5]

As time goes on and miles start to add up you will see more bearing pictures, but for now it's clear you will need to change your bearings as a regular part of maintenance for the S65 & S85 motors.

Bearings at 50,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...50k-miles.html

Bearings at 64,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...res-2-s85.html

Bearings at 84,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...000-miles.html

Bearings at 94,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...000-miles.html

We have had several M5 members have to replace the engine as well because of rod bearing issues as well. Most under 60,000 miles. So to say that we don't see it, is just because there are so few that actually participate on the forums. But it is happening and truth is it's no big deal. You are looking at $500-700 in parts and 12-16 hours in labor. I changed mine in the garage so it is a DIY as well. We also have a member over in Germany that changes them regularly and his friend is one of the M engineers that travels around to the various dealership and see alot of M car, he stated it is a very common problem that can be prevented.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by WallyM5

As time goes on and miles start to add up you will see more bearing pictures, but for now it's clear you will need to change your bearings as a regular part of maintenance for the S65 & S85 motors.

Bearings at 50,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...50k-miles.html

Bearings at 64,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...res-2-s85.html

Bearings at 84,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...000-miles.html

Bearings at 94,000
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...000-miles.html

We have had several M5 members have to replace the engine as well because of rod bearing issues as well. Most under 60,000 miles. So to say that we don't see it, is just because there are so few that actually participate on the forums. But it is happening and truth is it's no big deal. You are looking at $500-700 in parts and 12-16 hours in labor. I changed mine in the garage so it is a DIY as well. We also have a member over in Germany that changes them regularly and his friend is one of the M engineers that travels around to the various dealership and see alot of M car, he stated it is a very common problem that can be prevented.

Appreciate the info and it's pertinent becausethe S85 shares the same journal size and bearings. Have S85 owners that you are aware of gone to a thinner oil?

[gatorfast]

Can anyone give a high level explanation of what function rod bearings perform, why they would get damaged over time, and possible damage that can be caused if not replaced when worn?

[OM VT3]

What bearings does ESS sell with there 650 kit?

[WallyM5]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Appreciate the info and it's pertinent becausethe S85 shares the same journal size and bearings. Have S85 owners that you are aware of gone to a thinner oil?

Few at this point have switched to a thinner oil as this whole rod bearing issue is just now starting to come to life as mileage increases. There are a few of us that are switching to Mobile1's 0W-40 for daily driving. I plan to use the 10W-60 on track days.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by WallyM5

Few at this point have switched to a thinner oil as this whole rod bearing issue is just now starting to come to life as mileage increases. There are a few of use that are switching to Mobile1's 0W-40 for daily driving. I plan to use the 10W-60 on track days.

Good to know, appreciate the info.

[kiln]

"We also have a member over in Germany that changes them regularly and his friend is one of the M engineers that travels around to the various dealership and see alot of M car, he stated it is a very common problem that can be prevented."

Any division who thinks rod bearings is a "maintenance issue" is crazy. This is unacceptable for a factory car. Replacing the bearings is not even the correct solution. Instead you should be opening up the clearance a bit.

A "very common" problem on this particular issue is a "very serious" problem in my book.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by kiln

"We also have a member over in Germany that changes them regularly and his friend is one of the M engineers that travels around to the various dealership and see alot of M car, he stated it is a very common problem that can be prevented."

Any division who thinks rod bearings is a "maintenance issue" is crazy. This is unacceptable for a factory car. Replacing the bearings is not even the correct solution. Instead you should be opening up the clearance a bit.

A "very common" problem on this particular issue is a "very serious" problem in my book.

No truer of a post has been made!

I agree with all points you make and have been telling all forum members this exact message!

[PandaM3]

Originally Posted by kiln

"We also have a member over in Germany that changes them regularly and his friend is one of the M engineers that travels around to the various dealership and see alot of M car, he stated it is a very common problem that can be prevented."

Any division who thinks rod bearings is a "maintenance issue" is crazy. This is unacceptable for a factory car. Replacing the bearings is not even the correct solution. Instead you should be opening up the clearance a bit.

A "very common" problem on this particular issue is a "very serious" problem in my book.

Sounds like thinner oil is really just a band aid as we need the thinner oil for the tight clearances however need the 10w 60 to keep the oil cool when driven properly aggressive on the track.

Also sounds like changing the rod bearings at 50,000 to 100,000 mile intervals is also just a band aid... I would go on to say that just swapping out the bearings and not properly measuring the clearances as well as not sending the rod and crank to a machine shop to ensure the new bearings will fit well can lead to an even faster rate of wear before needing to replace again. As the rod bearings actually are supposed to sit on a layer of oil and actually not make any contact with the other surfaces at all. If the clearances are too tight no oil gets in between and you have the metal to metal contact.

I'm no engine builder or engineer however reading up on rod bearings it seems that aftermarket bearings come in 3 sizes... Original size, 1 step larger clearances, and 1 step smaller clearances. However I dont think as of yet there are aftermarket rod bearings in sizes other than oe size.

So I guess it's just going to have to be a waiting game while I hoon my ticking time bomb around the track. Will have to wait for BMW to catch wind of this and come up with a fix which seems to be rod bearings with bigger clearances.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by kiln

"We also have a member over in Germany that changes them regularly and his friend is one of the M engineers that travels around to the various dealership and see alot of M car, he stated it is a very common problem that can be prevented."

So how does one prevent this? You can't allow someone to make a statement as above and leave it hanging.

I have a gut feeling this is an issue related with the oil level and the electronic oil level sensor. Letting the oil drop to lower levels for a longer period might impact on the oil pressure thus causing some starvation especially in the away bearing (i.e. 8) and the upper ones. Keeping the oil level and pressure at optimum I think is of utmost importance for these cars. Every time I see my level drop from maximum I add 500 ml and it goes back to maximum. It hasn't overfilled yet. I will keep doing this. But I don't know whether is a band aid solution like the thinner oil etc. My 2c.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

So how does one prevent this? You can't allow someone to make a statement as above and leave it hanging.

I have a gut feeling this is an issue related with the oil level and the electronic oil level sensor. Letting the oil drop to lower levels for a longer period might impact on the oil pressure thus causing some starvation especially in the away bearing (i.e. 8) and the upper ones. Keeping the oil level and pressure at optimum I think is of utmost importance for these cars. Every time I see my level drop from maximum I add 500 ml and it goes back to maximum. It hasn't overfilled yet. I will keep doing this. But I don't know whether is a band aid solution like the thinner oil etc. My 2c.

He didn't leave it hanging, there is only one solution...... Adding clearance!

Unfortunately adding clearance on the S65 or S85 involves removing the engine and having the crank journals ground to a diameter that will give you proper clearance. It will be a little more expensive to do this than a simple bearing swap, the thing is the bearing swaps will be an ongoing affair but adding the clearance will be a one time thing!

One thing is clear to me from your statements about oil level is that you are misunderstanding the cavitation and starvation statements as being starvation due to oil level. The S65 would probably have to be 5-6 litres low on oil before it would affect pressure and cause a starvation/cavitation issue. The sump size in the engine is 9L because it is necessary to have it that large for a number of reasons........ Cooling, de-aeration of the oil, and ability of the oil to maintain a high enough TBN make it between the long drain intervals prescribed by BMW are a few reasons. Cavitation/starvation as stated by myself and Kawasaki00 is due to the inability of the TWS to flow before it has reached operating temperatures given the tight clearance numbers used by the S65/S85.

[nullrouted]

Originally Posted by happos2

No not yet. Out of all of the M3's on the road, we have a select small population on this forum. Then, there is even smaller population that has actually shown bearing wear (as most people haven't looked at this time). I have also only heard of a few engine blows, but nothing correlating them to the rod-bearings.

I've seen more than one but the most recent that comes to mind is Brooklyn Mark's car. He had a VT2-600 then upgraded to 650, never got the ESS 'upgraded rod bearings' -- had a catastrophic rod bearing failure, the post says it all, with pic for dramatic effect.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...3#post14124383

[nullrouted]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

He didn't leave it hanging, there is only one solution...... Adding clearance! Unfortunately adding clearance on the S65 or S85 involves removing the engine and having the crank journals ground to a diameter that will give you proper clearance. It will be a little more expensive to do this than a simple bearing swap, the thing is the bearing swaps will be an ongoing affair but adding the clearance will be a one time thing!

Has anyone actually done this to the S65? I was looking at the Dinan and RD stroker versions of the S65 for this reason. They have much better rods (and I assume, rod bearings) as well as lower compression rates for FI applications. I would be willing to bet their clearances are better as well, since the engines are blueprinted and bored. I don't think anyone has done an FI stroker build, but I would love to see it tried.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by nullrouted

Has anyone actually done this to the S65? I was looking at the Dinan and RD stroker versions of the S65 for this reason. They have much better rods (and I assume, rod bearings) as well as lower compression rates for FI applications. I would be willing to bet their clearances are better as well, since the engines are blueprinted and bored. I don't think anyone has done an FI stroker build, but I would love to see it tried.

Dinan adjusts clearances on all of its strokers to 0.0019" on the mains and 0.0025" on the rods!

RD sport never used to adjust clearances but based on my information they are going to start doing so.

ESS has be using stock clearance until now but when building a LC engine they could have machine work done on the crank if requested!

[PandaM3]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Dinan adjusts clearances on all of its strokers to 0.0019" on the mains and 0.0025" on the rods!

RD sport never used to adjust clearances but based on my information they are going to start doing so.

ESS has be using stock clearance until now but when building a LC engine they could have machine work done on the crank if requested!

So I guess doing a Dinan Stroker is one way to do a fix

http://www.dinancars.com/products/M-...-8-Engine.aspx

$25,000 + $20,000 deposit for the engine core exchange totalling $45,000.... Wonder if engine has to be running? Prolly cant exchange an engine that grenaded itself from the rod bearings...


I'll just wait for BMW to put out a TSB...

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by PandaM3

So I guess doing a Dinan Stroker is one way to do a fix

http://www.dinancars.com/products/M-...-8-Engine.aspx

$25,000 + $20,000 deposit for the engine core exchange totalling $45,000.... Wonder if engine has to be running? Prolly cant exchange an engine that grenaded itself from the rod bearings...


I'll just wait for BMW to put out a TSB...

You will probably be waiting a long time........ The E60/61 M5, E63/64 M6 and E90/92/93 M3 are all out of production and the chances of a TSB are slim and none. The bearings are lasting long enough to get through the warranty period so I am quite sure this is why there has been no action from BMW thus far. This coupled with the fact that the cars with the S65/S85 engines in them generally see lower mileage than series models is not helping things. One can hope though!