Bruised my ego but won the lottery at High Plains in Colorado

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Thanks man. The right answer is nope. I have a BK harness bar which is nice for holding me securely but offers 0 protection. The appropriate upgrade is a full cage. Been chatting with a buddy that could fabricate something suitable but likely won't until next year.

A full cage is definitely not a bad idea. Don't forget about fire suppression, nets, all that good stuff as well if you go that route. Complete the system - it doesn't work like it should without all the necessary parts.

Originally Posted by DRLane

Thanks man. After reflecting on the forum's reactions today, my chat with dogbone and subsequently my wife. I think the real takeaway is actually safety and the reality that it could've much worse...

I'm very guilty of not reflecting on the severity of accidents. I kinda have a wash it under the rug, happy go lucky attitude after really dangerous and fortunate outcome situations. For example, a couple winters ago I set off a large avalanche in the backcountry of Colorado that carried my two ski mountaineering partners. My immediate reaction after the successful self rescue was "it's all ok, thank god" and we should probably not overhype the situation to our wives. I've been a part of countless bad climbing accidents as well, and I think the 35 year old in me is starting to recognize that it's the wrong approach to somewhat blindly believe that outcomes will always be ok.

I'm not suggesting this incident was severe, but I do appreciate that while my gut reaction was "phew, car is safe". I should've also recounted on walking away > the condition of a vehicle.

I posted this, knowing full well that I would likely get some harsh but deserved feedback. And instead mostly the response has been appreciative of my health. So truly, thank you all for helping to remind me of the real outcome.

That said, don't hold back I love driving and will absolutely continue to track for as long as I'm able.

I had the same talk with my wife (and dogbone but that is another story ) - it really hammers home the potential consequences when something goes wrong on the track be it caused by human error, mechanical, however it happens. It can (and should) be a big wake up call - definitely has been in my case. Main thing is how you react & progress from it - and it definitely sounds like you have the right attitude about it.

[Bartledoo]

Very humble post. Good to hear that you didn't end up with much damage, but gained a healthy amount of respect for the situation instead.

It is a bit alarming that the org let you go back out after that many incidents in the day, though. I mean no disrespect by that, but orgs should have some kind of rules to keep people from just going crazy out there all day without worrying about their day being cut short.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Very humble post. Good to hear that you didn't end up with much damage, but gained a healthy amount of respect for the situation instead.

It is a bit alarming that the org let you go back out after that many incidents in the day, though. I mean no disrespect by that, but orgs should have some kind of rules to keep people from just going crazy out there all day without worrying about their day being cut short.

It's open track with no affiliation. I came in after the previous 4 wheel offs, spoke with the chief and explained what happened, and what I was trying to do. Checked the car in the paddock and went back out. Few cars out, no run groups, or sessions. Just an open 4 hours.

That said, I agree. My approach was wrong. Should've just continued small incremental changes vs trying to see what the tires would hold. I was just under impression that they could do more and I was simply under driving them vs driving them wrong.

[//steve\\]

encouraging read here. Thanks for sharing!

I'd really like to get mine out on track. It's still such a new car to me and feels very different from what I was used to and it actually feels very daunting to even moderately feel out what the car is capable of doing.

For those of you that have tracked and had Euro MDM coded, is it even possible to push it hard or does that step on your toes way too quick?

I came from 10+ years in multiple S2000s (the last 3 were all 06+ which had "traction control") and it was so intrusive with my car setup that the first thing I did was turn it off regardless of how/where I would be driving. I'm fighting the urge to just follow the same in the M3 especially knowing Euro MDM lets the car move at least a little.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by //steve\\

encouraging read here. Thanks for sharing!

I'd really like to get mine out on track. It's still such a new car to me and feels very different from what I was used to and it actually feels very daunting to even moderately feel out what the car is capable of doing.

For those of you that have tracked and had Euro MDM coded, is it even possible to push it hard or does that step on your toes way too quick?

I came from 10+ years in multiple S2000s (the last 3 were all 06+ which had "traction control") and it was so intrusive with my car setup that the first thing I did was turn it off regardless of how/where I would be driving. I'm fighting the urge to just follow the same in the M3 especially knowing Euro MDM lets the car move at least a little.

There's two considerations with [Euro] MDM: it will intervene but less aggressively than regular DSC, but it also does things silently that you may not even be aware of.


You can still have plenty of fun with Euro MDM. If you are comfortable driving a car at the limit on track, you'll probably turn it off pretty early.

[DRLane]

Rightly or wrongly, I've always turned everything off at the track as to protect the brakes. Which is probably silly considering where this post found me. That said prior to Thursday I hadn't had a many 4 wheel offs.

I like the car with no DSC, no "power mode", or extra servo resistance. Evidence that the 0 option cars really are the best.

[//steve\\]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Rightly or wrongly, I've always turned everything off at the track as to protect the brakes. Which is probably silly considering where this post found me. That said prior to Thursday I hadn't had a many 4 wheel offs.

I like the car with no DSC, no "power mode", or extra servo resistance. Evidence that the 0 option cars really are the best.

I had the same thought. You'll ultimately be a better driver learning to push with it off.

I also prefer the car with no power mode, no extra servo. I do typically leave MDM on as I'm still a little new to the car but my MDM config is basically as if none of that stuff existed.

And now that I have my MCS setup on the car there is no EDC to control anymore either.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by DRLane

That said, I agree. My approach was wrong. Should've just continued small incremental changes vs trying to see what the tires would hold. I was just under impression that they could do more and I was simply under driving them vs driving them wrong.

And this brings up a pet peeve of mine in the track forums.

Someone has a stockish M3 and is learning how to track. Eventually they reach the limit of the brakes/suspension and ask if they should mod those things or whether they should get a full 'track car'. This is why I always argue against the 'track car'. Unless you have already done the progression from street to race car earlier in your life, getting a 'track car' is a fucking terrible idea. The delta between a stockish M3 to one with solid bushings, stripped out, aero and slicks is too large for most people to bridge.

The other day on the F8X track section, someone that has stock suspension and brakes was asking about doing those two mods. The person in question is extremely far from what a stock F8X can do on the track. Well lo and behold, some people were recommending full race cars. Porsche race cars for that matter, which not even people that have been driving Porsches for 20 years can drive.

I've seen the recommendation over and over again. Someone is tracking their M3, gets within 10 seconds of a decent time for that M3 and people start recommending dedicated race cars. Unless you already have a ton of experience this is a terrible idea.

With the E46 M3 we kept it almost 100% stock
With the E92 M3 we got full BBK and eventually suspension
With the E90 M3 we started off with full BBK and 3w suspension
With the F80 CS M3 we did one track day with a front BBK and the next track day it had full suspension and full BBK
If we get a G8X M3, before its first track day it will have a full BBK and 3W suspension.

[dparm]

SYT_Shadow to play devil's advocate here, how do we really know those people are at the limits of the suspension or tires?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by dparm

SYT_Shadow to play devil's advocate here, how do we really know those people are at the limits of the suspension or tires?

because they post their times and their setup on tracks you know.

So if a good time for Laguna on a stockish E92 is 1:35 and someone does 1:45, I'm not so sure that driver is able to make the jump to a 'track car'

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by //steve\\

I had the same thought. You'll ultimately be a better driver learning to push with it off.

I also prefer the car with no power mode, no extra servo. I do typically leave MDM on as I'm still a little new to the car but my MDM config is basically as if none of that stuff existed.

And now that I have my MCS setup on the car there is no EDC to control anymore either.

The US MDM is more intrusive than Euro MDM.
The Euro MDM is very good at giving you control while increasing the margin of safety.

To turn off the Euro MDM so you can drive 10/10 is wonderful and at the same time increase the level of risk.

To blindly turn off the the Euro MDM, without recognizing the trade off you are making is silly but if your bank account can tolerate it, then why not?

Similar than not wearing a mask these days, Yes, so much more pleasure with no mask, but is it worth the risk?

like masks and mdm, everything seems to be controversial and political these days.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

because they post their times and their setup on tracks you know.

So if a good time for Laguna on a stockish E92 is 1:35 and someone does 1:45, I'm not so sure that driver is able to make the jump to a 'track car'

The other thing to consider is that at a certain speed, the car starting to consume tires and brakes, even if the driver is not ready to jump into mote advanced equipment.

Also, at the same speed, a car that is more track oriented is more enjoyable to drive.

I think the mistake people make is that equipment will make them faster and they try to use the equipment too quickly

At the beginning of my journey I was able to do 1:37 at NYST pretty early on, I can do now 1:38-1:37 pretty regularly, but I still can't get it to the 1:36 with UHP tires. However, doing now 1:37 is a lot more enjoyable that when the car had less modifications.

So there is something about the quality of the ride that is not reflected in lap time.

The way I approached getting used for a more advanced setup is to drive it no faster than before the last mode, keep Euro MDM on and see how it goes. Then I start pushing. When I get to later in the day, I turn MDM off and go a bit slower than when last session with MDM on. As I get comfortable, I get to about the same speed or faster.

My time with Cup2 this year if 1:37.2 was fastest I did on UHP tires and was with DSC off.

[DRLane]

I believe anything under 2 mins is fast at HPR for any car. The NASA TT1 and TT3 times from a couple weeks back were 1:56 and 1:58, although it was a scorcher of weekend at >95 degrees outside.

For those unfamiliar with HPR here's a great clip of Mark Melchior ripping 1:57 in a e9x M3. Not sure how prepped it is but guessing it's not stock. Turn 1 after the front straight is where I spun left.

That said, I believe dogbone did a sub 2 mins in his street m3 on his first visit.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by DRLane

I believe anything under 2 mins is fast at HPR for any car. The NASA TT1 and TT3 times from a couple weeks back were 1:56 and 1:58, although it was a scorcher of weekend at >95 degrees outside.

For those unfamiliar with HPR here's a great clip of Mark Melchior ripping 1:57 in a e9x M3. Not sure how prepped it is but guessing it's not stock. Turn 1 after the front straight is where I spun left.

That said, I believe dogbone did a sub 2 mins in his street m3 on his first visit.

Kinda hard to tell much of anything without better data like gas/throttle/steering, but based on the friction circle, I would say this driver is pretty skilled with keeping the car on the limits. The small fluctuations in the little ball on that friction circle indicate lots of minor corrections through the entire corner.

[DRLane]

Yes definitely skilled. And I edited the post as the video I first copied was as F8x...

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by //steve\\

encouraging read here. Thanks for sharing!

I'd really like to get mine out on track. It's still such a new car to me and feels very different from what I was used to and it actually feels very daunting to even moderately feel out what the car is capable of doing.

For those of you that have tracked and had Euro MDM coded, is it even possible to push it hard or does that step on your toes way too quick?

I came from 10+ years in multiple S2000s (the last 3 were all 06+ which had "traction control") and it was so intrusive with my car setup that the first thing I did was turn it off regardless of how/where I would be driving. I'm fighting the urge to just follow the same in the M3 especially knowing Euro MDM lets the car move at least a little.

You can push decently with euro mdm. I did my first 10 track days with it on. It does some weird little braking that you'll notice when you turn it off, and it will definitely hold you back in gaining car control confidence and lap time. No throttle rotation at all, and very little wheel spin. Also, you'll start to wonder who is actually driving the car.

Oddly, my biggest "moments" were with mdm on. I swear it just got totally confused a couple times on corner exit and hit me with a weird snap of oversteer.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

You can push decently with euro mdm. I did my first 10 track days with it on. It does some weird little braking that you'll notice when you turn it off, and it will definitely hold you back in gaining car control confidence and lap time. Also, you'll start to wonder who is actually driving the car.

Oddly, my biggest "moments" were with mdm on. I swear it just got totally confused a couple times on corner exit and hit me with a weird snap of oversteer.

The Euro MDM is constantly applying 20-50 psi brake to the front outside tire from what I can see on AiM. This is for my setup.

In my setup, I have "Brake switch" (0/1) and Break pressure (total and individual wheel). So if I apply the brakes then "brake switch=1"
If I am not on the brakes, then "brake switch=0" and I have PSI > 0 on one or more corners and I know MDM is doing something.

If you simulate 20psi-50psi with the brake pedal, you will see that it is a very gentle brake pressure.

When and if it cuts power, I was not able to see in the data. Perhaps I don't know where to look.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by rhyary

The Euro MDM is constantly applying 20-50 psi brake to the front outside tire from what I can see on AiM. This is for my setup.

In my setup, I have "Brake switch" (0/1) and Break pressure (total and individual wheel). So if I apply the brakes then "brake switch=1"
If I am not on the brakes, then "brake switch=0" and I have PSI > 0 on one or more corners and I know MDM is doing something.

If you simulate 20psi-50psi with the brake pedal, you will see that it is a very gentle brake pressure.

When and if it cuts power, I was not able to see in the data. Perhaps I don't know where to look.

Exactly, which actually makes the car feel twitchy as that brake is gently tapped. It's very easy to notice in steady state cornering. Imo it makes the car feel less stable and dimishes confidence.

[dparm]

My memory of Euro MDM was that you can be pretty casual and use a point-and-shoot method: get the car to corner entry, turn, apply throttle, let the car do the rest.

If anything, it instills over-confidence because it smooths out your imperfections or improper technique. You can't defy physics in it, but relying on it too much will be a problem as soon as you decide you want to drive a lot faster.

I'd say it's fine for anyone who likes to just go out on track and turn quick laps without worrying too much.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by dparm

My memory of Euro MDM was that you can be pretty casual and use a point-and-shoot method: get the car to corner entry, turn, apply throttle, let the car do the rest.

If anything, it instills over-confidence because it smooths out your imperfections or improper technique. You can't defy physics in it, but relying on it too much will be a problem as soon as you decide you want to drive a lot faster.

I'd say it's fine for anyone who likes to just go out on track and turn quick laps without worrying too much.

>> If anything, it instills over-confidence because it smooths out your imperfections or improper technique.

The MDM does no such thing...

[dparm]

Example 1:

If I am too abrupt with the throttle, especially at corner exit, the car can easily spin without DSC/MDM. A good driver can usually catch it or know the car's limits well enough to get back to full throttle when grip allows.

With DSC/MDM engaged, the car will simply cut the power and you don't need to come off the gas or countersteer. This only reinforces said bad habit. It's twice as bad if the light doesn't flash or the intervention is subtle, because you think the car has more grip than it really does. If I tell that person to turn DSC/MDM off, they'll probably end up facing the wrong direction at the exit curbing.


Example 2:

If I am entering a corner too fast, I might miss the apex or resort to an overly-aggressive trailbrake that causes the rear to come around. Best case I brake a little harder and maybe scrub too much speed, and immediately realize my mistake for the next time around.

With DSC/MDM engaged, the car detects yaw and will quickly drag one of the brakes or maybe even cut power a little bit to tuck the nose in. While no driver can brake an individual wheel (obviously), this only reinforces in your mind how fast you THINK you can take that corner. Again, if I tell that person to turn off DSC/MDM, they'll understeer right past the apex and totally ruin the lap time.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by dparm

Example 1:

If I am too abrupt with the throttle, especially at corner exit, the car can easily spin without DSC/MDM. A good driver can usually catch it or know the car's limits well enough to get back to full throttle when grip allows.

With DSC/MDM engaged, the car will simply cut the power and you don't need to come off the gas or countersteer. This only reinforces said bad habit. It's twice as bad if the light doesn't flash or the intervention is subtle, because you think the car has more grip than it really does. If I tell that person to turn DSC/MDM off, they'll probably end up facing the wrong direction at the exit curbing.


Example 2:

If I am entering a corner too fast, I might miss the apex or resort to an overly-aggressive trailbrake that causes the rear to come around. Best case I brake a little harder and maybe scrub too much speed, and immediately realize my mistake for the next time around.

With DSC/MDM engaged, the car detects yaw and will quickly drag one of the brakes or maybe even cut power a little bit to tuck the nose in. While no driver can brake an individual wheel (obviously), this only reinforces in your mind how fast you THINK you can take that corner. Again, if I tell that person to turn off DSC/MDM, they'll understeer right past the apex and totally ruin the lap time.

I usually tell students in normal front-engine rear-drive cars to disable the stability/traction control precisely to avoid them getting used to mashing the throttle leaving an apex while still pinching the wheel without reaping the consequences.

So many students are still closing the steering wheel and have transitioned to WOT. MDM/etc cuts throttle and selectively applies brakes while they are doing this, preventing the spin