E92 M3 ZCP in SCCA Solo F Street

[z3papa]

Originally Posted by sgreer78

Ha. That's not my point. It was more region centered.

Anyway, I don't remember you coming down last year. I do the year before.

NASA Autox at Gateway. Thought that was your course design.

[sgreer78]

Originally Posted by z3papa

NASA Autox at Gateway. Thought that was your course design.

Probably so. I don't think I was at that one, was I?

[z3papa]

Originally Posted by sgreer78

Probably so. I don't think I was at that one, was I?

Yes. http://live.axti.me/results/EJ1KFHYsf
http://live.axti.me/results/4y52KStjz

I owned you as is typically the case.

[sgreer78]

Originally Posted by z3papa

Yes. http://live.axti.me/results/EJ1KFHYsf
http://live.axti.me/results/4y52KStjz

I owned you as is typically the case.

Right...

I remember why I didn't remember that event. I chose to wipe it from my memory. What a disaster. Around 40°, completely new everything-Shocks, tires, spring rates, etc.

[The Nebulizer]

I rode with sgreer recently. One of the best I can remember.
Dude can drive an M3. It's going to be a long, ego-bruising season. Clark, you should definitely get to StL this year.

[Richbot]

Sean has it. Took him a while to figure out he had it, but he has it, and now he has a proper vehicle to carry it in

He also knows how to set up a miata for maximum self-ownage by co-drivers on video

[sgreer78]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Sean has it. Took him a while to figure out he had it, but he has it, and now he has a proper vehicle to carry it in

He also knows how to set up a miata for maximum self-ownage by co-drivers on video

[z3papa]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Sean has it. Took him a while to figure out he had it, but he has it, and now he has a proper vehicle to carry it in

He also knows how to set up a miata for maximum self-ownage by co-drivers on video

I know that and have told him directly he's fast and will do well. Doesn't stop me from giving a ribbing every once in a while. Health concerns may make me his biggest supporter and fan this year, especially if I don't make any big events.

[Richbot]

Wait hold on there






I didn’t say anything about him being fast

[SkysTheLimit]

Originally Posted by sgreer78

I ran mine on medium Sunday and thought it was okay-good. Sunday we have a TnT, I hope to try it on soft, maybe a combo of soft-med to see what I like better. I usually like a softer front end.

Originally Posted by z3papa

Looking back, I think I had some custom end links which I had previously made sitting around and used some the parts off those to adapt the Dinan set to work better. The only Nat'l guy running full stiff as far as I know is Sean O'Boyle out west. Laughlin used to run his full soft which invokes a different response altogether which I was not a fan of.

Some feedback to add to the mix:

Did my first event of the season today. It was also my first time out with the car. So take this with a grain of salt.

Temperature ranged from 65-80 degrees, first heat out. Brand new RE71Rs square. Asphalt surface.

The car seemed to push quite a bit with the bar on medium. I don't see how I could run it any stiffer locally. I'll be attending the local T&T on next Saturday and am actually going to explore softening the bar up a bit. Will report back once I do that. I may try one medium hole + one soft hole, and then full soft to see how I like it.

Here's a video from today of one run I thought was decent. I have a lot of fast drivers in my region, so did better than I expected for my first of the season with a new car.

[sgreer78]

Looks to me like the push is coming from asking too much from a camber limited macstrut car. Also, new re71's aren't quite turned on until you get a couple heat cycles through them.

[Richbot]

Yeah a couple times in there that’s uh...optimistic entry speed but I think you will figure out how to drive around it. It’s gonna push steady state with a 9” front wheel and no camber there’s not a whole lot you can do about it. Softening it up might give you nice balance but if you’re not able to go near the throttle unless the wheel is straight steady state balance doesn’t help much But full soft is still stiffer than stock just have to testes a lot and see what you oike

And yeah what Sean said about tires you gotta give them a minute to wake up

[SkysTheLimit]

Originally Posted by sgreer78

Looks to me like the push is coming from asking too much from a camber limited macstrut car. Also, new re71's aren't quite turned on until you get a couple heat cycles through them.

Originally Posted by Richbot

Yeah a couple times in there that’s uh...optimistic entry speed but I think you will figure out how to drive around it. It’s gonna push steady state with a 9” front wheel and no camber there’s not a whole lot you can do about it. Softening it up might give you nice balance but if you’re not able to go near the throttle unless the wheel is straight steady state balance doesn’t help much But full soft is still stiffer than stock just have to testes a lot and see what you oike

And yeah what Sean said about tires you gotta give them a minute to wake up

I was a little optimistic but I am more convinced it was an issue with my line vs the ideal line in those spots. The speed would have been carried with a better approach/exit. I watched the #1 PAX/RAW guy's line (despite him being in a much faster class) and realized what I did wrong. He also happened to ride with me that day.

Hope to clean it up as I learn the car, but yeah, that all makes sense. I am already comfortable with some degree of understeer as I am coming from an even more camber limited E46 that had 245 tires up front...so this is a huge increase in grip compared to what I am used to.

All things considered, I am searching for that steady state balance. And I do feel the bias is slightly off based on that course setup, which was an OK mix of fast/slow but perhaps more slow. I will start the first few runs @ T&T as-is to offer a "control" to compare to.

[z3papa]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Yeah a couple times in there that’s uh...optimistic entry speed but I think you will figure out how to drive around it. It’s gonna push steady state with a 9” front wheel and no camber there’s not a whole lot you can do about it. Softening it up might give you nice balance but if you’re not able to go near the throttle unless the wheel is straight steady state balance doesn’t help much But full soft is still stiffer than stock just have to testes a lot and see what you oike

And yeah what Sean said about tires you gotta give them a minute to wake up

This. You can reduce a little early/mid entry understeer but you'll pay the price on transitions by going to soft. I've tried it a few times and didn't like it. I may try one side soft/one side middle but don't like the concept especially if there is any chance of pre-load. I also think the understeer becomes more pronounced when conditions are cold.

[CSBM5]

Agree with all these comments. Just dialing back the entry speed a tick so you can avoid having to be late on the throttle on exit pays huge dividends on this car; however, on mine (8.5, 9.5 with 275s all around when I F-street'd the car), even if I overcooked the entry a bit too much, I could either open up the line a tad or scrub it good with lock input and drop throttle and then the car would immediately respond to the throttle with the tail (this was on Rivals back 4-5 years ago). I was continually amazed how I could rotate the tail like that and recover what would be terminal plowing out in many other cars.

The RE-71R isn't as forgiving as the Rival, so overdriving them seems like there is more to lose.

[SkysTheLimit]

Originally Posted by z3papa

This. You can reduce a little early/mid entry understeer but you'll pay the price on transitions by going to soft. I've tried it a few times and didn't like it. I may try one side soft/one side middle but don't like the concept especially if there is any chance of pre-load. I also think the understeer becomes more pronounced when conditions are cold.

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Agree with all these comments. Just dialing back the entry speed a tick so you can avoid having to be late on the throttle on exit pays huge dividends on this car; however, on mine (8.5, 9.5 with 275s all around when I F-street'd the car), even if I overcooked the entry a bit too much, I could either open up the line a tad or scrub it good with lock input and drop throttle and then the car would immediately respond to the throttle with the tail (this was on Rivals back 4-5 years ago). I was continually amazed how I could rotate the tail like that and recover what would be terminal plowing out in many other cars.

The RE-71R isn't as forgiving as the Rival, so overdriving them seems like there is more to lose.

All good points. Thanks guys.

Making me rethink my approach. I think what is getting me is just how neutral the car feels in factory form with no front bar. But of course the front bar on our camber limited cars greatly helps with transitions. Adding just the front bar says understeer according to physics, so I think it just might be what Rich said about getting used to the healthy dose of push and learning how to drive around it. Would there be preload with 2 different holes assuming links are properly adjusted?

Can't help but agree on the Rival vs RE71 feel. Those Rivals loved a nice slip angle and to me felt better in terms of communication. The RE71's are something like...grip, grip, grip...overdoing it? I am just going to silently give without warning you.

Definitely, though, I need to work on line and learn "slow in, fast out". Need to also remain open-minded as that was only 1 day, 1 event with the car!

[The Nebulizer]

Originally Posted by SkysTheLimit

I am already comfortable with some degree of understeer as I am coming from an even more camber limited E46 that had 245 tires up front...so this is a huge increase in grip compared to what I am used to.

I make the same e46 M3 to e90 M3 switch periodically, but I respond oppositely with a tendency to under-drive the e90 expecting understeer that isn't as present.

Meanwhile my e46 is frustrating me again, but this time I am not sure why. Understeer was not so horrible. The car has been feeling good, but I am way behind on time. I think I just need to adjust my expectations and accept that I'm not so good at this - and that is OK. Maybe I should give up the e46 in FS losing battle and convert to STU and just have fun with it and screw results.

[Richbot]

Also don’t forget you have 400hp you can deploy one hp at a time if you’re careful, like csb said the throttle is a hell of a steering wheel on these cars

The front bar buys you a rear end that can take a lot more throttle by keeping that inside rear down and helping the schizophrenic stock diff be less schizo

[sgreer78]

Rain, 40º, essentially no push. Dinan bar, middle hole. 275 re71's

[SkysTheLimit]

Did a few more events since my last post and have NJ Pro this upcoming weekend. Really excited!

On a separate note. To generate some discussion:

I softened my front bar at the T&T and never went back. I dropped a full second - some certainly attributable to tires, some improvement in line, but the rotation was significantly improved.

I saw some photos of the car and yes, on soft, the car has a lot of body roll. But for my driving style it seems to be an improvement. It's not quite as snappy as before but I have no difficulty going quickly through slaloms, and the push I was experiencing before is mostly gone. Had some pro instructors ride along in the car and all had comments about my driving, and not the car setup.

Again, take this with a grain of salt as the NJ lot is relatively small compared to some of the stuff you guys have out there, and is 100% sealed asphalt. Not concrete.

I figure I'm about at 40-50% on my front pair of RE71R's. Center rib is about 20-30% right now. Ran these at about 31psi average +/-. Did 1 event solo, 3 events with a co-driver, and 1 T&T ~25 runs total there. Do you guys see similar tire wear?

[z3papa]

Tread wear on RE71R's is very quick at first, and then slows once you get to where you are at. By my though, you appear to have something like 67 runs which is about 1/2 to 2/3's the way through.

[sgreer78]

I'm at 55 runs and will flip the fronts before the next event. Rears are wearing quite even.