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10-11-2013, 03:38 PM | #244 |
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^ What kinda driving was done on that car? Mainly street? Lotsa track time?
Anyway, the evidence is pretty disturbing. I'll have to send my oil out to Blackstone during my next oil change. My car currently has almost 41k.
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10-14-2013, 02:13 PM | #245 |
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Regular Guy was gratious enough to send me bearings to look at and measure and hardness test.
What has been observed is the original 088/089 bearings are a copper/lead content while the 702/703 bearings are of an aluminized tin/silicon compound. Measurements with my mic are as follows, I am in no way saying what is right or wrong but there is always a tenth or two between different people, just because I measure one way is not to say another measurement is incorrect. What matters is the same guy measuring the crank and the clearance for the final outcome. 088 .07875 089 .07885 091 .0837 090 .0836 702 .07855 703 .07875 Measurements are pretty much in line with what others have documented up until they get polished. What is a MASSIVE change is the hardness of the bearings. I will not get into the difference of what is right or wrong here but just know the new 702/703 bearings are a huge jump in hardness The average hardness for the 088/089 bearings are the same at 16.2B Scale The average hardness for the 702-703 bearings are the same at 61.8B Scale This puts to rest the theory that one bearing is harder than the other relative to the old vs new ones. We can work bearings to get a few tenths when needed at our shop. The big one here is not only are we gaining on the average .0002-.0003 by going to the 702/703 but we are also gaining .0003 more by our polishing method. In essence a rod that was .001 clearance before with 088-089 can now be installed with the newer polished bearings and be AROUND .0016. Bearings that were in at .0013 should be able to get to .0019. It is not the end all be all but it will help. Also remember I have one smaple of each bearing. From our experience ther can be +-.0001 from shell to shell. Not every bearing will turn out the same as these measurements. Here are some pics for comparison. I did not do pictures of the before polishing sizes, they were measured but not photographed.
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Last edited by kawasaki00; 10-14-2013 at 02:20 PM.. |
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10-14-2013, 03:44 PM | #246 |
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Thanks Kawasaki.
How does your polishing compare to the WPC process AutoTalent had used on their bearings that apparently may have increased clearances too? Is a harder bearing a good thing or a bad thing? Thanks again. .
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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10-14-2013, 04:37 PM | #247 |
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Would it make sense to switch oils depending on the season? Am in Chicago so winters get pretty cold, but in the summer its hot and I track quite a bit...also, is there any risk in preventative switching out OEM for OEM of the bearings?? Am worried I've had no problems, replace the bearings, and the new ones don't match as well or they create a clearance issue where one never existed before...does that make sense? Also, haven't heard enough about the statistical probability of these events and how much tech and engineering improves and that clearances may or may not be changing over time...I plan on doing a winter refresh with the car and am just running down the checklist and looks like this will be added...the beauty of science and engineering is that almost nothing is set in stone (thinking larger concepts, not math) , just greater degrees of understanding...thanks for continuing to add to that level of understanding to all
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10-14-2013, 04:44 PM | #248 |
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You're the man, Kawasaki, for getting this data. In your opinion, are bearings with harder surfaces more likely to score the crank, instead of being a consumable on the cheaper, more serviceable bearing? Just curious, seems there's always a catch
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10-14-2013, 07:12 PM | #249 |
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For those wondering on the usage of 0W-40 Mobil1 oil:
This past weekend the M3 went to WSIR Big Willow and ran multiple 30 minute sessions with no stops during the sessions lapping 1:33.xx to 1:35.xx all day. Weather was approximately 76*F. The Oil Pressure did not vary from stock much at all, at least not an appreciable difference to be of concern, the values were still within BMW specifications of where the oil pressure should be operating. Oil Temperatures. The temperature of the oil never exceeded 225*F (slightly past the half way point on the cluster gauge) surprisingly. Another fact to note, in a slightly cooler climate at the same track with TWS 10W-60, the car run much hotter oil temps (slightly past the 3rd marking for those who want a reference point). During cool down laps, oil temperature also lowered noticeably faster than they did with the 10W-60. This M3 will remain on 0W-40 Mobil1 during a hotter event, and will report back once again, however I expect it to be equally impressive in less ideal ambient conditions as well. -Malek
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10-14-2013, 08:05 PM | #250 | |
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10-14-2013, 08:09 PM | #251 | ||
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Unfortunately I cant really talk about what was done to the polished bearing though. I will say it is a different process than the WPC, not better just different. If the clearance can be brought up to a more acceptable level with the newer bearings then I would not have a problem running them. I do how ever have a problem running the harder bearing when the clearance is tight. IMHO this is part of why the newer 2011 and forward cars are more likely to kick the rods out during that first 25/30k miles. At least with the softer bearing it will be much more forgiving if it is tight.
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10-14-2013, 10:15 PM | #252 | ||
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As time permits, I'll keep updating this thread with new bearing pictures. I still have many more sets to post, but so little time to do it. |
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10-14-2013, 11:02 PM | #253 | |
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Awesome real-world feedback- very helpful, thx
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10-15-2013, 01:14 AM | #254 | |
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10-15-2013, 03:16 AM | #255 |
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So is this accurate?:
-There are 6 different bearings. Are the adjacent numbers a top/bottom set? -BMW slightly loosened bearing clearances and made the bearings much harder when implementing new lead free bearings? This happened in 2011 model cars? What is the deal with the way thicker 090/091 bearings? It's obviously very interesting to the vast majority of us as to which material/hardness you believe is right and which is wrong. It is pretty amazing that BMW has speced radically differing hardnesses in the exact same application with only a couple of tenths of size difference.
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10-15-2013, 09:03 AM | #257 | |||
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090/091 is bottom/top for oversize (first crank regrind) 702/703 is bottom/top for lead-free bearings [/quote]-BMW slightly loosened bearing clearances and made the bearings much harder when implementing new lead free bearings? This happened in 2011 model cars?[/quote] Not sure which model year the changes were made. We will track this as more motors are disassembled. Quote:
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10-15-2013, 09:19 AM | #258 | |
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10-15-2013, 09:22 AM | #259 |
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Agree. The thinner oil should be able to release heat better than the thicker oil. Those running will also probably notice when the oil temp rises, it also falls quicker as well.
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10-15-2013, 09:24 AM | #260 | |
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10-15-2013, 11:47 AM | #261 |
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So if I get this right BMW tried to solve the problem but only made it worse? So the harder 702/703 bearings wear a bit slower but destroy the engine when they do? My car is a 2008 model so I assume I have the softer 088/089 lead bearings.
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10-15-2013, 12:21 PM | #262 |
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What will or will not happen at this point is pure speculation until real world data is collected over time. The only facts we have is that bearings were changed to provide a more durable surface and BMW knows that the TWS oil is not the only oil that can or should be used in the S65 motor. Most of the people I talk to who race say that TWS oil is shit. I have switched recently as my car is on the track several times a year. One of the issues with the m3 on the track is oil temp recovery time and hopefully the new oil will help with this.
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10-15-2013, 01:07 PM | #263 |
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You do.
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