To Those that Self-Adjust for Track/Street Alignment

[Boba1214]

I love the passion y'all have on this topic--it shows that you're super particular (ie. anal haha) on how certain things are done, which totally gives me confidence on getting the right answer for my scenario.

• I'm not lapping for times or doing TAs on the track.
• I DD the car ~10k/year and canyon carve 2x a month. Will include 3-4 track days a year.
• Since my "spirited" driving occurs a few times a month, I'd imagine they would eat up the tires pretty quickly, which was was why I wanted to go with the camber and toe markings so I can re-adjust them myself after
• Main goal is to preserve tread life on the track and canyons

With emphasis on the last point, I'd want the camber and toe measurements to be somewhat close between changes. I mean imagine doing the street to track change, and coming back to the street with toe being 0.5deg off.

With the markings on the tie rod (screw driver indentation or thin marker), how far off can one expect with the toe adjustment? The Millway camber plates have measurement (millimeter) on them so I can just use blue tape to leave a precise mark.

[dogbone]

Before my car was a gutted/dedicated track car, it was dual duty.

For many years, I had a simple, repeatable procedure that worked very well for me---it preserved my street tires very well, and I had great performance at the track.

My approach was based on the observations that the car massively wore the outside edges of the front tires on track. (Street tires hide the fact that the car wears outside edges for a long time. Soft/race tires show it very quickly.)

Here's what I did:

-I went to an alignment shop and had a track alignment done with maximum camber on the front.
-Then when I got home, I lifted both front wheels and went to absolute minimum camber on the front. I drove the car around on the street with minimum camber. The street tires wore very nicely. And the car felt fine driving on the street with minimum camber on a Vorshlag camber plate.
-I would drive to the track, and then use two floor jacks at the track to slam the camber plates to maximum camber. This gave me good performance at the track, and then best possible tire wear. Then, when the track event was over, I lifted both sides of the front, changed camber back to minimum, put my street tires on and drove home.

No marking plates, no nonsense. Worked great.

And as far as toe change from min to max camber, I asked the alignment shop to look at toe at both min and max camber. It changed 0.01.........nothing to worry about.

On this platform, my advice has always been to run as much camber as you can on track. (Most regular camber plates top out at around -4º.) If it's dual duty car, then just take camber to minimum for street use. Easy.

[leftfootbr8king]

This was another hot topic a few weeks ago, but if you dial in a bit more caster (for both street and track) you can run less static negative camber because you’ll get more dynamic negative camber.

I also like that the wheels do better at self centering and it adds a bit of weight to the steering (which I prefer).

More caster doesn’t hurt tire wear, either.

The only potential downside is too much caster can cause weight jacking (inside wheel lift) in corners however I’ve got over 9 degrees and have not experienced it. I run a relatively soft spring setup paired with adj sway bars that are both set 1 hole from full stiff so that could play a factor in my handling dynamics.

[Boba1214]

Originally Posted by dogbone

.........

And as far as toe change from min to max camber, I asked the alignment shop to look at toe at both min and max camber. It changed 0.01.........nothing to worry about.

.............

Did you see it on the machine that changing your camber from min to max resulted in only 0.01 change in toe? Otherwise that is impossible from my understanding of how our Macpherson suspension works.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Boba1214

Did you see it on the machine that changing your camber from min to max resulted in only 0.01 change in toe? Otherwise that is impossible from my understanding of how our Macpherson suspension works.

I was at a lasar alignment shop, and we watched the toe changes live on the screen as we made the camber changes. They were so minimal, I never gave it another thought.

[MineralWhiteF80]

my experiences: i have access to an alignment rack where i can play as much as i want. I tried to do a very “real world” simulation test of my track/street alignment swap to see how repeatable it was. The goal was to see what happens by only moving the camber plates. The rear suspension alignment specs stayed the same; only the front was the concern.

My test:
1. Set and marked both track and street camber positions on alignment rack to exacting specs I wanted and watched how toe changed between the two settings.
2. Pulled car off rack drove it 10 miles.
3. Jacked car up in parking lot, slid the camber plates out to the least amount of negative camber.
4. put the car back on the rack and rechecked the numbers.

Regardless of what my actual settings were, my first attempt at simply “swinging the plates in and out” to my track and street markings showed quite different results.

It turns out the tolerances in most all camber plates allow some wiggle room because there are gaps between the screws and slots that adjust camber, the bottom camber plate can twist and slide forward/back/left/right a little in relation to the top camber plate and all of that movement didn’t allow me to get repeatable results with just making a permanent marker dot at specific camber settings. I had to make substantially more alignment point marks on the plates to be sure the top and bottom plates were exactly in same positions each time before i was able to get close to a mostly repeatable result. Like Shadow and others have mentioned, does a little bit of a difference matter for the average joe HPDE car and a little street use? absolutely not.

Also, Adjusting alignment settings on a car is VERY touchy and a lot of time adjusting the toe to a specific number is hard- the smallest movement of your wrench can be too much and then simply tightening down a bolt or nut to lock the setting in place can change the toe setting! thats why i think trying to adjust toe settings in a parking lot or home garage isn’t a great idea and won’t do anything good for you

[MineralWhiteF80]

SYT_Shadow DRLane leftfootbr8king

What are your opinions and experiences with front caster settings, and what do you typically run? Im trying to get an idea of how much more I can run over factory on my “average joe” HPDE/track day/fun-only car with Nitron R1 coilovers (F:700lb/R:1000lb springs), and square 18x10 275/35/18 wheel/tire setup.

thanks!

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by MineralWhiteF80

SYT_Shadow DRLane leftfootbr8king

What are your opinions and experiences with front caster settings, and what do you typically run? Im trying to get an idea of how much more I can run over factory on my “average joe” HPDE/track day/fun-only car with Nitron R1 coilovers (F:700lb/R:1000lb springs), and square 18x10 275/35/18 wheel/tire setup.

thanks!

The simple answer is running ~9° of positive caster is helpful and has dynamic camber benefits. But folks have been running less to maximize static camber for a long long time on the platform. I asked a question about this on the forum years ago when I started learning about alignments and didn’t get much more than “it’s what everyone does”. Since have spent time learning through HPA, Suspension Secrets, local race engineers, and self exploration making changes and testing.

Pain the ass answer:

Unfortunately it’s a lot of depends and it’s a pain to adjust properly. Having a perfectly level surface is the challenge with most home alignments.

Sounds like you’re already well aware but for others reference, caster adjustment is made either via race camber plates (pulling top of strut back) or changing the length of the front control arm to push or pull the bottom. Point is a lot of adjustment = lots of frustration.

Ideall you can lift the car up and down on the alignment rack with turn tables. If that’s not an option is best to do the caster using the lift with turn tables and then move the car to the alignment rack. Caster is first, then camber, then toe. You’ll also see running running different amounts across the pass/driver sides.

Lastly it’s tire dependent. Check with tire manufacturer for guidelines or recs.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by MineralWhiteF80

my experiences: i have access to an alignment rack where i can play as much as i want. I tried to do a very “real world” simulation test of my track/street alignment swap to see how repeatable it was. The goal was to see what happens by only moving the camber plates. The rear suspension alignment specs stayed the same; only the front was the concern.

My test:
1. Set and marked both track and street camber positions on alignment rack to exacting specs I wanted and watched how toe changed between the two settings.
2. Pulled car off rack drove it 10 miles.
3. Jacked car up in parking lot, slid the camber plates out to the least amount of negative camber.
4. put the car back on the rack and rechecked the numbers.

Regardless of what my actual settings were, my first attempt at simply “swinging the plates in and out” to my track and street markings showed quite different results.

It turns out the tolerances in most all camber plates allow some wiggle room because there are gaps between the screws and slots that adjust camber, the bottom camber plate can twist and slide forward/back/left/right a little in relation to the top camber plate and all of that movement didn’t allow me to get repeatable results with just making a permanent marker dot at specific camber settings. I had to make substantially more alignment point marks on the plates to be sure the top and bottom plates were exactly in same positions each time before i was able to get close to a mostly repeatable result. Like Shadow and others have mentioned, does a little bit of a difference matter for the average joe HPDE car and a little street use? absolutely not.

Also, Adjusting alignment settings on a car is VERY touchy and a lot of time adjusting the toe to a specific number is hard- the smallest movement of your wrench can be too much and then simply tightening down a bolt or nut to lock the setting in place can change the toe setting! thats why i think trying to adjust toe settings in a parking lot or home garage isn’t a great idea and won’t do anything good for you

Yes, I also have an alignment machine and this is spot on. 1/6th of a turn of a tie rod takes you from a green acceptable range of toe to way out into the red. It's way more sensitive than anyone here is making it out to be and as little as .7* camber changes toe by as much as .3*. Not sure how dogbone is saying his only changed .01*.

Reality is the avg person just cant tell the difference but if they rolled into an alignment shop they would be way off.

If you really do massive amounts of daily driving then it might be worth it. If the car is mostly a weekend car or hpde car then there is really 0 reason to mess with the alignment. You'll be going through tires way faster than alignment change matters for the minimal street driving.

[bigjae1976]

It really depends on your expectations.

Adjusting the suspension based on marks is not exact by any measure but it will get you somewhat closer.

If you must optimize track performance and tire life, you need to do an alignment each time which can get expensive. Firestone has a lifetime alignment deal but you're probably better off just eyeballing it unless you can find a tech that really cares - they do exist.

You could get a string alignment setup which...BY FAR AND WAY...the hardest part is getting the car on a completely level surface. Again, depends on your expectations of quality.

I think most of us will be OK with adjusting to marks on a camber plate.

[leftfootbr8king]

It should be noted that I never meant to imply toe didn’t change when you adjust camber. I meant it’s possible to have it be repeatable, within a spec almost any alignment shop would be happy to deliver you.

I found that with very specific marks on the plates, reset to the mark on both the x and y axis, you’d get practically repeatable measurements. So if you had a street setting of say: camber at -2.2 and 1/32” toe-in per side, you could slide the plates to -3.2 and be at like, 1/16” toe out. And if you slid them back and forth again, you might be at 0 toe when at street camber settings, and 3/32” toe out when back to track camber settings. This might not be good enough for some people. Truth is, it’s not good enough for me. I’m the kind of guy to dial ride heights to the exact mm at each corner ( scales to do corner balance are one of my next purchases).

BUT, when you pay someone to do your alignment for you, there’s a 99% chance they don’t get it dialed any more accurately. If you find someone who cares, consider yourself lucky.

Again, care is required. There is some play in the slots in the plates, but if you don’t put a wrench on your tie rod ends, and you put the plates back to the same exact spot on both axis the toe doesn’t change more than a 1/32” of an inch either way from its prior measurement at that specific mark/camber setting.

Something that will throw you off and make you believe your toe changed more than it did is not achieving the exact same steering wheel position prior to measuring. It doesn’t take more than top dead center of the wheel being off by a 1/4” to make a mess of your toe measurements.

I don’t have a dog in this fight. Everything I tested and have reported on was just for the hell of it. Because I can and I was a bit curious. I have a trailer, and I don’t slide my plates at the track, because it would already be dialed before it left the garage.

At the end of the day, my recommendation is that everyone who might want to do more than 2-3 alignments a year should invest in a string setup. I have quicktrick, and haven’t found any faults with it.

They seem daunting till you spend a few hours with them. When you consider the time you spend messing around with making an appt, driving there, waiting for it to be done, driving home and still most likely not getting the exact specs you asked for, you could invest that time teaching yourself something.

To the point of needing a level surface…yea that’s true. Your garage floor most likely has some grade to it for drainage, but you can zero the level to the grade of the floor when you’re dialing in the strings.

Or get wheel stands (but then you’ll need a way to get the car onto those stands)

[gmx]

Or get a 4post lift

[e92BMW///M3]

This was a great read, lots of information and points of view.

Trying to apply to my use case, I've not had an alignment in some time, and even since then I've lowered the car approximately 6mm. So suffice to say between the lowering and the NJ roads I imagine my alignment could use a refresh which will be part of the plan this offseason. It was initially set at a moderate -2.7* of camber up front and I am contemplating maxing out the camber for my last event just to see if there is a performance difference.

Dumb question... is it as simple as jacking the car up, loosening the 3 top mounts, sliding the camber plate and retorquing? Diagrams I found online said 25 ft lbs but that seems low?

Edit: Dumb question 2 - how are you marking the plates to move them back and forth (outside of dogbone's suggestion to just do max and min).

[DRLane]

Torque to 18 ft/lbs