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      02-11-2019, 02:02 PM   #155
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If I was buying today I'd have bought your other front kit undoubtedly. I'm not sure about the 372 kit. So big. Gauche.

Fun fact, my Ferodos came from you guys!

And when my rings wear out, I'll probably pull the trigger

But that'll be in...what 2030? Will cars even be legal by then or will we all have to travel in tubes? (bad joke reference to other thread, lol)
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      02-11-2019, 02:05 PM   #156
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I'm interested in seeing your write up. When you say we're getting a lot more for money what do you mean? Give me a couple example of where we're getting a lot more. If we are getting more does it really translate to what are street cars. Does the extra that you offer benefit most of the users on this forum. There are a few guys who have basically turned their cars into full race cars. Beyond those few guys


Quote:
Originally Posted by jritt@essex View Post
I'll chime in on this necro-thread, since there weren't nearly as many available options back in the day.

A proper brake kit should be a good match to the needs of the car and driver. That is in terms of fade resistance, feel, longevity, etc. Bigger will last longer and gives more headroom for upgrades to other aspects of the car (added horsepower, stickier tires, etc...but bigger also weighs more and can limit wheel fitment (particularly with 380mm discs).

We believe our front 372mm kits are now the standard by which all others are judged. We have multiple pad options, stainless ventilated pistons with anti-knockback springs standard, high vane count discs, and the Radi-CAL caliper design is by far the most advanced technology available anywhere. Our kits are incredibly lightweight, while still fitting inside 18's. Our front 372mm kit shaves 14 unsprung lbs. off the nose vs. the OEM brakes despite being larger, and you can get them with 1" thick pads that last forever. You can see options here:

https://www.essexparts.com/my-vehicl.../BMW/M3/%20E92

Lots of customer feedback in our other thread: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...ighlight=essex

I also wrote an extensive comparison of our Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL kits vs. Stoptech if anyone is interested in seeing it. Our kits are more money than StopTech, but you are also getting a lot more for your money. Thanks for your consideration.

Last edited by Dr. Dre; 02-11-2019 at 02:29 PM..
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      02-11-2019, 02:08 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
If I was buying today I'd have bought your other front kit undoubtedly.

Fun fact, my Ferodos came from you guys!

And when my rings wear out, I'll probably pull the trigger

But that'll be in...what 2030? Will cars even be legal by then or will we all have to travel in tubes? (bad joke reference to other thread, lol)
Lol...thanks man. You'll be helping yourself into your car via a walker. Appreciate the support! It is interesting for sure to see the feedback on all of the forums. The bottom line across all cars...M3 to Z06, to GT3, to Miata...there are wildly differing brake demands placed on these cars at the track. What works for one person may mean next to nothing for someone else. Different tracks, different mods, different drivers. Some people can get away with barely any brake mods, while others will strain the toughest system. It's actually been pretty amazing to see during the past 15 years I've been helping people with their brakes.
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      02-11-2019, 02:15 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Dre View Post
I'm interested in seeing your write up. When you say we're getting a lot more for money what do you mean? Give me a couple example of where we're getting a lot more. If we are getting more does it really translate to what are street cars.

One, two, three and to the four...First of all, I have to tell you that I'm extremely envious of your screen name!

When you look at brake kits, you have to look big picture and long-term. You can't just look at the initial purchase price. Our kits have proven more durable, have a higher standard specification, and hold their value incredibly well when sold on the used market. As such, the miles per dollar one can squeeze out of our kits is off the chart vs. anything else out there. Here's the write-up I did a while back:



I've had several forum members PM me with questions about how our Radi-CAL Competition Kits compare to, and differ from, StopTech Big Brake Kits. Below I've put together a comparison between the two brands. Pretty much everything below applies to our system vs. the OEM brakes, and all of our competitors' aftermarket kits vs. our Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Kits.

For reference, I was the sales manager at StopTech for 4-5 years back in the early to mid 2000's when they were just getting their legs. I actually helped build their presence in the Audi world, most notably on the B5 S4. I also ran the StopTech ST-60 system on my C5 Z06 while I worked at them, so I'm intimately familiar with their products. The StopTech system is very nice with high quality parts. When we designed our Essex/AP Racing kits however, we set out to make every component in our kits lighter, stiffer, more durable, and far more effective than anything else on the market. I believe we have succeeded.

Calipers

Core Design

The StopTech ST-60 is a basic, no frills, conventional design from roughly year 2003. It was designed to be as versatile as possible to service a wide range of vehicles from sports cars to trucks out of the same casting. Over time it has undergone some changes, moving from a casting to a forging, losing a little weight, etc. It is a quality road caliper. The Trophy version was conceived in roughly 2009, originally as a 'special edition'. It is the same caliper with a bit of fat trimmed, and the option of running AKB springs at an added cost.

The Pro5000R Radi-CAL's, CP9660 and CP9668, were designed in 2014 using AP's collective knowledge gained from roughly 7 years of Radi-CAL designs in Formula 1, NASCAR Sprint Cup, DTM, etc. You can read about The Radi-CAL design philosophy here, and the huge impact they had at the elite level of racing. The primary benefits of the Radi-CAL design are:
Massive Stiffness Increase- A 30+ % increase in both static and dynamic stiffness allows for far less deflection under load, which means superior pedal feel & modulation, more even pad wear, and longer caliper service life.
Considerable Mass Reduction- Removing all extraneous caliper mass lowers the caliper weight, despite the huge stiffness increases
Optimized Airflow- Air moves around and through the caliper more efficiently, providing superior heat evacuation.
Efficient Packaging- The wide, asymmetric caliper profile and internal porting allows the caliper to fit into tighter spaces.

From a technical standpoint, the Radi-CAL design makes everything else on the market a bit of a dinosaur. They are the current state-of-the-art in caliper design, and the gold standard in elite racing.

Anti-knockback springs

AP Racing has them, StopTech doesn't, unless you pay extra for their Trophy Kit. People severely underestimate how valuable these springs are. After going through S turns, you'll have a much lower pucker factor in the next brake zone with the springs installed.

Piston type
StopTech= cast aluminum
AP= Domed-back, ventilated, machined stainless steel

Stainless is far superior at keeping heat out of your brake fluid. The domed-back provide added stiffness and superior pedal feel, and the ventilation also allows them to run cooler. StopTech will tell you that SS pistons are a problem because they expand at a different weight than the aluminum caliper body when they are heated, which can lead to piston cocking and problems. That is complete nonsense. Every serious racing caliper on the planet runs either SS or titanium pistons. I've been with Essex/AP Racing for ten years now, and we've sold thousands of calipers with SS pistons in the aftermarket at this point, and we have NEVER had an issue with a piston cocking, etc. Literally, not once.

Weight
AP Racing CP9660 Pro5000R weighs 6.2 lbs. without pads. Our CP9668 (which is wider and takes a 25mm thick pad) weighs only 6.8 lbs. The StopTech ST-60 weighs roughly 8.8 lbs.

Dust Boots
StopTech uses a street caliper, and as such it uses dust boots. AP Racing Competition calipers have none. If you've ever run dust boots on the track, you'll find that they burn up and cause a big mess almost instantly. Their only value is if you're driving on winter or debris/dirty roads. As soon as they go on track they essentially lose all value.

Seals
Both calipers have quality, high temp seals.

Hydraulic protection
StopTech has an external crossover pipe for fluid, and outer bleed screws, while the Radi-CAL Pro5000R's have internal porting and don't even have an outer bleed screw. This feature protects the hydraulics from track debris, and when you're swapping wheels. No chance of knocking a bleed screw or bending a crossover tube.

Materials and Bridge
The caliper bodies on the ST-60 and Pro5000R are both high quality forged aluminum parts. The bridge on the AP uses two bolts and is easier to manipulate. On the CP9668, a spring clip quick-change bridge option is also included, which reduces pad change time to about six seconds. You squeeze the spring clip and lift...that's it, no tools required! With four bolts, the bridge on the ST-60 can be a hassle to get in and out. On my Z06 I had to wrestle with it a bit to get it seated properly, particularly after it was heat-cycled numerous times.

Pad choice/cost/size

Both the ST and AP calipers use an old AP Racing pad shape and have tons of pad options. The radial depth on the Pro5000R calipers is 54mm vs. 51mm, so you get a tiny bit more pad volume with the AP's. Thickness on the ST-60 and CP9660 is 18mm, but our CP9668 offers 25mm thickness if you're endurance racing, or if you're just lazy and don't like to change pads as often!

Stainless Steel hardware
Both calipers have high quality stainless steel hardware.

Footprint/size
In addition to weighing much less, the CP9660 has excellent wheel fitment, partially because it has no outer bleed screws and it is tapered on the corners. It fits inside OEM wheel options without a spacer. Despite being considerably wider, the CP9668 is still a compact package and will fit many wheels. Because we use a 372mm diameter disc, we can still fit inside 18" wheels, and our disc is about as large as you can squeeze inside most 18's.

Finish
StopTech= painted. Look pretty, but will not look as good after hard use. Paint and powdercoat tend to change color dramatically at track temps. If you're driving through road salt however, they will be better protected than anodized.

AP Racing= anodized. Do not color shift nearly as much. An added bonus is that they also look 'racier' (like what you see on full-blown race cars).

Rebuild Service
Essex offers a lifetime professional reconditioning service. You can send your calipers to Essex and have them rebuilt by the same techs who service NASCAR and IMSA teams. I'm unsure of ST's procedures, policies, and prices on rebuilds at this time.

Discs

Design
Both companies offer high quality discs for the kits in question. Discs from both manufacturers are quality castings that are crack resistant and will last a long time under heavy track use. That said, the StopTech discs are a more pedestrian 48 vane design, whereas the AP Racing discs have 84 vanes (nearly twice as many). That means more disc face stability and higher airflow. Our discs also have the patented J hook face slot are the #1 choice at the elite level of motorsports (NASCAR, IMSA, DTM, Aussie V8, Super GT, etc.).

Size/Mass/wheel fitment
The discs in the front StopTech kits are either 380x32mm or 355x32mm. Our front discs are 372x34mm. We have the largest disc that will fit behind most 18" wheels. Our discs are thicker, have nearly twice as many vanes, and you'll have more wheel fit options than you will with a 380mm disc.
StopTech 355's with hats weigh about 18 lbs., their 380's weigh about 21 lbs. Our 372's weigh approximately 21 lbs. assembled.

Spare iron price
StopTech 355's are $345 each, and 380's are $375 each, and our 372mm discs are $399. We believe that the tiny premium for our disc is more than offset by the technology and longevity embedded in our discs.

Disc hats
Both have a quality design and are made from aircraft grade aluminum. Both are optimized for weight and airflow.

Disc Burnishing
For $100, Essex will burnish your discs with the pad compound of choice. That means you don't have to fiddle around with bedding-in your discs, or worry that you're doing it properly. Our patented burnishing machine and process make sure it's done properly every time. We burnish thousands of discs each year for pro race teams. StopTech does not offer this option/service.

Brake Lines
Both systems came with a high quality set of brake lines, but the Spiegler lines in our kit are the highest quality available. They feature stainless fittings with a unique swivel system that prevents twisting and kinking.

Other Factors

Initial Purchase Price

StopTech ST-60/380mm kit=$3695
StopTech ST-60/380mm Trophy Sport Kit= $4495 (if you want dust boots, it's more)
Essex Designed AP Racing CP9660/372mm kit= $4399
Essex Designed AP Racing CP9668/372mm kit= $4799

Obviously I'm a bit biased, but it's almost inconceivable that anyone would pay a similar amount for the aging StopTech technology vs. our latest AP Racing Pro5000R offerings. The Pro5000R Radi-CAL kits are a step beyond the ST kits in every facet. Yes, our kits are initially ever-so-slightly more expensive than the basic ST-60 kit. However, there is a HUGE difference in the level of hardware you're getting in each kit. Our setup is the same as what you'd get on a factory Audi racecar. Every component is designed to be stiffer, lighter, and more durable than anything else on the market. There's nothing even close.

Brand/Reputation/Panache
StopTech has a solid reputation for supporting grassroots racers, providing quality parts at an obtainable price (I like to think I was actually a large part of building that reputation early on ). Lots of lower-level racing series use ST products successfully.
AP Racing is the best of the best, with over 700 Formula 1 wins on their brake components. Just about all factory BMW race cars run and trust AP Racing. They have the most cutting-edge products, and when people see the AP Racing logo, they think "the best."

Aesthetics
Other than not being available in fancy colored paint, I don't think it's a remotely close comparison as to which kit looks better. The ST-60 caliper makes the AP Racing CP9660 and CP9668 look like spaceships! Behind the wheels, 380mm discs effectively look nearly identical to a 372mm. The radius of the 380mm disc means it only sticks out 3mm closer to the wheel on either side vs. a 372mm, which is negligible visually. The J Hook slots also look way cooler than a straight slot.

In summary I'll say that I'm not trying to bash StopTech. I have nothing against them, and they make nice products. I also still have friends who work there. That said, time has moved on. We now have superior technology and offerings available to the average enthusiast that weren't an option 10 years ago. Onward and upward.
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      02-11-2019, 02:18 PM   #159
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Oh and one other thing: The STR40 kit dropped 11lb off my car, probably closer to 13 if I'd compared new stuff to new stuff. It was just under $2800 on sale with shipping back in 2014. The STR60 kit was a lot more, very close to $4k, probably because nobody wanted the smaller rotor because it's way too small and crap . If I'd wanted to pair with a rear kit, the STR40 rear kit saves approximately 0 pounds, and would have cost me another $2500 or so.

The RadiCal front kit is 14 lb off, you get better rotors and a 6-pot caliper with more features

Pair that with the now-available B rear replacement rotors and you can knock more than 20lb off the brakes for under five grand if you wait for a sale. That's pretty rad. Or you can go full-special and us the 340 rear kit Essex offers, which is very very light, as it should be, it's in the back, rear brakes on an FR are the the aircraft equivalent of a trim tab, important but if they were as big and capable as the wings you will have made a pretty idiotic airplane, and lose another 10

It's nice to see continuing improvements in support for this platform, it deserves it. The "Do No Harm" principle of car modding is hard to adhere to but not when you have stuff like this to choose from

EDIT: OH, and please make an aftermarket rotor replacement option for the W212 E63 AMG S-model thanks. pretty please
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      02-11-2019, 02:28 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Oh and one other thing: The STR40 kit dropped 11lb off my car, probably closer to 13 if I'd compared new stuff to new stuff. It was just under $2800 on sale with shipping back in 2014. The STR60 kit was a lot more, very close to $4k, probably because nobody wanted the smaller rotor because it's way too small and crap . If I'd wanted to pair with a rear kit, the STR40 rear kit saves approximately 0 pounds, and would have cost me another $2500 or so.

The RadiCal front kit is 14 lb off, you get better rotors and a 6-pot caliper with more features

Pair that with the now-available B rear replacement rotors and you can knock more than 20lb off the brake rotors for under five grand. That's pretty rad. Or you can go full-special and us the 340 rear kit Essex offers, which is very very light, as it should be, it's in the back, rear brakes on an FR are the the aircraft equivalent of a trim tab, important but if they were as big as the wings you will have made a pretty idiotic airplane

It's nice to see continuing improvements in support for this platform, it deserves it. The "Do No Harm" principle of car modding is hard to adhere to but not when you have stuff like this to choose from

Full special.

FYI...to anyone interested in a rear kit. We still have some of our original rear brake kit that uses a conventional (non Radi-CAL) calipers. They are fantastic kits and have won national championships in NASA, etc. You can see them here:
https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...ear-cp5040-e92

We need to move these out to make room for the Radi-CAL kits, and I would be happy to give someone a great deal on one if interested. They are featured in this thread: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...ighlight=essex


Forgot to say...I've been trying to resist picking up an e90 for my daily driver, and I'm finding fewer and fewer reasons to do so! Great cars, and still plenty of support.
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      02-11-2019, 02:32 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Pair that with the now-available B rear replacement rotors and you can knock more than 20lb off the brakes for under five grand if you wait for a sale. That's pretty rad. Or you can go full-special and us the 340 rear kit Essex offers, which is very very light, as it should be, it's in the back, rear brakes on an FR are the the aircraft equivalent of a trim tab, important but if they were as big and capable as the wings you will have made a pretty idiotic airplane, and lose another 10

EDIT: OH, and please make an aftermarket rotor replacement option for the W212 E63 AMG S-model thanks. pretty please
You're absolutely right on the rear. I think everyone would be stunned to know how few replacement discs we sell on our rear 340mm kits. I have guys who have had them on the car for years without swapping discs. It's crazy.

I drive a W219 CLS550 as my daily. My data shows your front disc as a 360x36mm with a 65mm radial depth, which is a really oddball size. Our closest potential option on that would be a 380x34mm, D66, spacing the caliper out. Unfortunately, we've never had a single other person ask for this disc. If you can scare up some interest we can take a look at it.

Last edited by jritt@essex; 02-11-2019 at 02:52 PM..
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      02-11-2019, 02:48 PM   #162
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I think it's the same part number for W204 P30, W218 and W212, 360x36 floating
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      02-11-2019, 03:52 PM   #163
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Girodisc and RB make replacements so I think the odds are good you'd be chasing your tails looking for a market. Unless you could come in under a grand per axle for a brand new casting and hat to fit rotors to the literally DOZENS of people who put non-OE parts on their 600hp benz sedans, lol, business case made

Anyway, back to the M3 stuff, M3 brakes are neat, if you don't appreciate the awesome aftermarket you get when you buy the E9xM you're a big dummy
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      02-13-2019, 05:06 PM   #164
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All good stuff above. I'm sure AP is superior. But one correction - the ST 355mm front kit has 35mm wide rotors.

Trinity has stupid good pricing on ST40s now. Ahhhh
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      02-14-2019, 01:36 PM   #165
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Trinity is where I got mine iirc

And yeah, it's 35mm. I know this because my rotors are still just a hair below 34mm, which is more than 32, and they're worn from being used for 55,000 miles. Science
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      02-23-2019, 05:54 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post

Oh, the Ferodo pads for the ST40 caliper don't have the noise reducing thingie on the backing plate. So that'll be interesting to see if they're noisier or not.
Any feedback on noise and feel with the 2500s vs ST pads?
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      02-24-2019, 04:27 PM   #167
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Car's still parked for the winter! So far, about equal. Ferodos slightly louder when dropped
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      03-25-2019, 04:08 PM   #168
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i used STR40 in the front (R=trophy). But i've had to add in anti knock back springs. They are fine now but my brain has already embedded a left foot tap on certain sections after esses or high lateral G turns. I might test the left foot thing next time and just hit the brakes well before the braking zone to see if the springs work lol.

I was running full aero and pirelli DH take offs. They're fine to me. But I think my dust boots have melted given the fact that my wheel area was smoking, but nothing a proper cool down doesn't take care of. I was just being lazy. It got 10k views on IG though

AP for sure are superior but won't make you an outstanding driver all of a sudden and for the price, the stoptechs are fine. AP is higher end equipment though and should be on everyone's wish list. That's different from a cost/benefit to each individual though.

I got my kit for a great deal and can get replacement parts for cheap AF as well.
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      03-26-2019, 11:06 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyatth View Post
Any feedback on noise and feel with the 2500s vs ST pads?
Worn ST street performance pads vs. new DS2500's - There's slightly more cold squeal (talking very cold). They also don't bite much below 40 degrees F, you can feel them warm up before grabbing. Also getting some pad clicks but that's probably more from them rocking a bit on a slightly not-flat rotor that's been used for a whil and has some taper to it...they also don't have any sound-deadening coating/plate on the back (oem-style) -the ST street performance pads for the ST40 have this.

Hot they're great, and quiet. I'm not putting much stock in my impressions of them right now because of the weather and the fact that I half-assed it with worn, un-turned rotors and new pads, but overall, an improvement I think
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      03-26-2019, 02:11 PM   #170
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Thanks for the follow up!
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      03-26-2019, 08:24 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Number 86 View Post
i used STR40 in the front (R=trophy). But i've had to add in anti knock back springs. They are fine now but my brain has already embedded a left foot tap on certain sections after esses or high lateral G turns. I might test the left foot thing next time and just hit the brakes well before the braking zone to see if the springs work lol.

I was running full aero and pirelli DH take offs. They're fine to me. But I think my dust boots have melted given the fact that my wheel area was smoking, but nothing a proper cool down doesn't take care of. I was just being lazy. It got 10k views on IG though

AP for sure are superior but won't make you an outstanding driver all of a sudden and for the price, the stoptechs are fine. AP is higher end equipment though and should be on everyone's wish list. That's different from a cost/benefit to each individual though.

I got my kit for a great deal and can get replacement parts for cheap AF as well.
What would the price point where you deem STR40s okay? Asking for a friend.
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      03-26-2019, 11:25 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derbo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Number 86 View Post
i used STR40 in the front (R=trophy). But i've had to add in anti knock back springs. They are fine now but my brain has already embedded a left foot tap on certain sections after esses or high lateral G turns. I might test the left foot thing next time and just hit the brakes well before the braking zone to see if the springs work lol.

I was running full aero and pirelli DH take offs. They're fine to me. But I think my dust boots have melted given the fact that my wheel area was smoking, but nothing a proper cool down doesn't take care of. I was just being lazy. It got 10k views on IG though

AP for sure are superior but won't make you an outstanding driver all of a sudden and for the price, the stoptechs are fine. AP is higher end equipment though and should be on everyone's wish list. That's different from a cost/benefit to each individual though.

I got my kit for a great deal and can get replacement parts for cheap AF as well.
What would the price point where you deem STR40s okay? Asking for a friend.
Pretty sure I saved more than $1000 on my kit vs AP. PFC are great too. Just can't find deals on these.
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