Oddly quite on the F8X boards...

[swartzentruber]

Originally Posted by STooK

All this bickering between e9x and f8x community has got to stop, seriously. I'm getting sick and tired of e9x owners saying f8x sucks, and f8x owners saying e9x sucks. Buy what YOU want and keep it moving...at the end of the day, you'll be driving it.

I don't know that painting E9x M3 owners in such broad strokes is all that useful either. I think there's a lot of us that fall more in the park of general disappointment. Do we think it sucks? No. Are we disappointed, and think BMW could have done better? Yes. Finally, there is no inevitability that ever subsequent generation of a performance car be better. On paper, pure numbers, the F80 is better. In the real world that we live in, while history regard it as better? Only time will tell.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

Finally, there is no inevitability that ever subsequent generation of a performance car be better. On paper, pure numbers, the F80 is better. In the real world that we live in, while history regard it as better? Only time will tell.

It's not only "History" and "time" that will decide. I decided, that right now I'm not getting one. I may never get one.

Everything EXCEPT the engine, and maybe the looks, seems better in the new M3, and I'd say looks are evenly mediocre for both cars.

For me, the engine is a major disappointment. Rather than being a singularly spectacular feature, it has been reduced to a mere appliance. Produces lots of power, propelling the car forward rapidly, over a broad band of RPM starting just off idle. If that's *ALL* an engine is, then sure, even this is better than the prior version.

For me, there is beauty and enjoyment in the uniqueness of performance (8400 RPM V8, great sound, redline right next to peak HP), design and application (nothing but an M3 ever had an S65, and the S65 was wholly different than any non-///M engine) of the S65 that simply is not delivered by the N55-derived turbo. The sound, (comparatively) low revs and flat final 2k RPM, along with turbo lag and being a derivative (tuned version) of a regular series BMW engine simply saps my enthusiasm.

This car should have a DI S65.

I see it as nothing more than a cost-cutting measure. The price of the new M didn't go up much, as long as you don't count the 1/2 price engine they put in it. Maybe it's a good tradeoff for BMW. It's not for aficionados of fine and rare engines.

Sour grapes? NO WAY! I hope each version gets faster - that only continues the legacy of special cars that represent ///M. The fact that my E90 will destroy an E46 in any race, in no way reduces my love of that model M3; they're fantastic.

I'm just disappointed to see the "special" go away, in favor of an "appliance" engine.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

I don't know that painting E9x M3 owners in such broad strokes is all that useful either. I think there's a lot of us that fall more in the park of general disappointment. Do we think it sucks? No. Are we disappointed, and think BMW could have done better? Yes. Finally, there is no inevitability that ever subsequent generation of a performance car be better. On paper, pure numbers, the F80 is better. In the real world that we live in, while history regard it as better? Only time will tell.

Its entirely reasonable to have your opinion without repeatedly bashing the f8x over the same subjective issues. I agree and fall into your camp but OP is just trolling.

We can celebrate the e9x and the s65 without bashing the s55 which unquestionably is a performer in performance and mpg. I like the forums because it is a place to connect with like minded individuals, learn valuable information, see new products and admire peoples projects, I dont come here to argue over platform superiority and have or read internet pissing contests.

Lets all just be friends.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

Its entirely reasonable to have your opinion without repeatedly bashing the f8x over the same subjective issues. I agree and fall into your camp but OP is just trolling.

We can celebrate the e9x and the s65 without bashing the s55 which unquestionably is a performer in performance and mpg. I like the forums because it is a place to connect with like minded individuals, learn valuable information, see new products and admire peoples projects, I dont come here to argue over platform superiority and have or read internet pissing contests.

Lets all just be friends.

No way you jerks what about the e46!

[991brothers]

I honestly believe Op is feeling really insecure about his purchase of the E9x M3. These threads solve nothing.

[M3/4 life]

The point that’s being missed in these debates is the fact that when the E9x came out it literally kicked every cars ass in every comparison test that was done! The E9x was praised by all as was the E46 when it came out, however with the new F8X the only cars ass it has kicked is the E9x…….

[Denk]

I'll take the BMW styling with the GT350's engine.

[m3ray]

Originally Posted by Denk

I'll take the BMW styling with the GT350's engine.

Now that's something I'd like to see. Who will be the one to drop that engine into a Beemer?

[V8FunNaturally]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Good summary of the fact pattern.

Fact of the matter is some of the people (just a few) have resorted to providing dis-information, jumping to premature/erroneous conclusions .

Actually for those who have followed the release of the e9x in 2007 and the f8x in 2014, bmw marketing are the ones who poisoned the well this time around trying to defend their forced trajectory away from racing NA engines.
Those who have insiders connections knows this but the 3.0 liter generic engine in the m4 was resisted internally by the motorsport division engineers. The 'cleaner' emissions was the official reason it -had- to be used but the true enabler was that it is cheaper to produce than an artful and bespoke high revving v8. More profit margin under the same M badge. More profit margin in the wake of a financial crisis post 2009.
There was an apparent insecurity in bmw marketing about this ecoboost engine and the whole m4 car as a result. They first exaggerated how lighter it would be, then when it wasn't that much lighter they were silent. Then they spinned all kinds of sugggestive lies about the artificial sound system which is an auditory cover up of that engine. They threw all those extra CF parts to distract minds away from the questionable engine. And yes when they released the M4 they bashed its predecessor in a way you didn't see in the e46 to e92 transition as if the new car alone was insufficiently capable to wage its access to the M legacy they had to disown their brainchild e92. All because they know the f8x is questionable from an enthusiast point of view. bmw marketing is largely responsible for poor marketing PR and alienating e9x owners who could see through the lies.

[TommyLights]

I raced an M4 with a JB4. It was fast as hell, pulled on him after 110mph. That's with a VF540 kit.

[FogCityM3]

Good observations and agree BMW marketing fueled the fire to a very large degree which didn't help their cause at all (actually backfired). It is well documented that the M division always wanted to stay normally aspirated and after repeated comments on the subject until the new car development got started, there were a few senior management departures, including the head of the ///M division (retired). I do think Clarkson's "B-team" comments were made very deliberately as they corroborate some of the backchannel stores circulating around that you allude to.

In the 3 series board, everyone acts as if the 3-series/M3 not making the C&D 10 best is no big deal, but you know they used to carry tons of advertisements in the dealerships bragging about being on this list for so long and would even copy C&D's reviews to hand out to people. So yes, it matters. You can bet that not making the C&D 10 best list is a big problem in Munich as far as longer term brand perception (LUCKILY the M235i made it, so near term damage may not be as great). You couple all this with the rare hiring of outside talent from Ferrari and Audi, stories of the return of V10 engines, poor sales in the M5/M6 (and think the same may be happening with the M3/4) and a narrative starts to develop.

Originally Posted by sunsweet

Actually for those who have followed the release of the e9x in 2007 and the f8x in 2014, bmw marketing are the ones who poisoned the well this time around trying to defend their forced trajectory away from racing NA engines.
Those who have insiders connections knows this but the 3.0 liter generic engine in the m4 was resisted internally by the motorsport division engineers. The 'cleaner' emissions was the official reason it -had- to be used but the true enabler was that it is cheaper to produce than an artful and bespoke high revving v8. More profit margin under the same M badge. More profit margin in the wake of a financial crisis post 2009.
There was an apparent insecurity in bmw marketing about this ecoboost engine and the whole m4 car as a result. They first exaggerated how lighter it would be, then when it wasn't that much lighter they were silent. Then they spinned all kinds of sugggestive lies about the artificial sound system which is an auditory cover up of that engine. They threw all those extra CF parts to distract minds away from the questionable engine. And yes when they released the M4 they bashed its predecessor in a way you didn't see in the e46 to e92 transition as if the new car alone was insufficiently capable to wage its access to the M legacy they had to disown their brainchild e92. All because they know the f8x is questionable from an enthusiast point of view. bmw marketing is largely responsible for poor marketing PR and alienating e9x owners who could see through the lies.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by Tomz_M3

I raced an M4 with a JB4. It was fast as hell, pulled on him after 110mph. That's with a VF540 kit.

Nice! He was probably Map 1, max.

[TommyLights]

Originally Posted by jc05e46m3

Nice! He was probably Map 1, max.

No idea. I upgraded to a 620 based on that experience.

[STooK]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Good observations and agree BMW marketing fueled the fire to a very large degree which didn't help their cause at all (actually backfired). It is well documented that the M division always wanted to stay normally aspirated and after repeated comments on the subject until the new car development got started, there were a few senior management departures, including the head of the ///M division (retired). I do think Clarkson's "B-team" comments were made very deliberately as they corroborate some of the backchannel stores circulating around that you allude to.

In the 3 series board, everyone acts as if the 3-series/M3 not making the C&D 10 best is no big deal, but you know they used to carry tons of advertisements in the dealerships bragging about being on this list for so long and would even copy C&D's reviews to hand out to people. So yes, it matters. You can bet that not making the C&D 10 best list is a big problem in Munich as far as longer term brand perception (LUCKILY the M235i made it, so near term damage may not be as great). You couple all this with the rare hiring of outside talent from Ferrari and Audi, stories of the return of V10 engines, poor sales in the M5/M6 (and think the same may be happening with the M3/4) and a narrative starts to develop.

Wow, I just realized the 3 series didn't make C&D top 10 this year. I always hear that annoying commercial on the radio boasting how it's been on the list 18 times or something in a row yea, this is pretty huge. Maybe this will be a wake up call to BMW that more (models) isn't better.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by Tomz_M3

No idea. I upgraded to a 620 based on that experience.

Hahahahahahah! Nice. There was a 620 kit out at NFZ, but it wasn't doing as well as long boarders 625 kit or the stage 3 AA kit. All fast cars though.

[rngrjag]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

Its entirely reasonable to have your opinion without repeatedly bashing the f8x over the same subjective issues. I agree and fall into your camp but OP is just trolling.

We can celebrate the e9x and the s65 without bashing the s55 which unquestionably is a performer in performance and mpg. I like the forums because it is a place to connect with like minded individuals, learn valuable information, see new products and admire peoples projects, I dont come here to argue over platform superiority and have or read internet pissing contests.

Lets all just be friends.

Not trolling. Did I post this on the F8X board? I'm very secure in the purchase of my N/A M3. Are you insecure about me stating the facts? The new car is fast. It sounds worse and has lost steering feel. It is a factual statement that the new car is superior in every meaningful performance metric. It is also apparent that it has lost a lot of what made old M cars M cars; their soul. Sooo, to the poster that holds the holier-than-thou "I don't judge a car by what professionals say about it in magazines." Congratulations. For the vast bulk of car guys out there, what professionals say about a car is important. I wasn't bashing the F8X. I was noting it has no longer received the accolades of the previous cars. As an E46 M owner, now a E92 M owner, I have been a loyal ///M customer. The twin-turbo S55 motor just isn't for me. Period. Enjoy your F8X. Just know that despite its performance superiority it has won NONE of the accolades and awards of the previous M3. No "engine of the year" awards, no Automobile Allstars, No Car and Driver Ten Best. That's a fact. Don't be offended by the facts, just wick up the boost to 11 and blow your hair back.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by rngrjag

Not trolling. Did I post this on the F8X board? I'm very secure in the purchase of my N/A M3. Are you insecure about me stating the facts? The new car is fast. It sounds worse and has lost steering feel. It is a factual statement that the new car is superior in every meaningful performance metric. It is also apparent that it has lost a lot of what made old M cars M cars; their soul. Sooo, to the poster that holds the holier-than-thou "I don't judge a car by what professionals say about it in magazines." Congratulations. For the vast bulk of car guys out there, what professionals say about a car is important. I wasn't bashing the F8X. I was noting it has no longer received the accolades of the previous cars. As an E46 M owner, now a E92 M owner, I have been a loyal ///M customer. The twin-turbo S55 motor just isn't for me. Period. Enjoy your F8X. Just know that despite its performance superiority it has won NONE of the accolades and awards of the previous M3. No "engine of the year" awards, no Automobile Allstars, No Car and Driver Ten Best. That's a fact. Don't be offended by the facts, just wick up the boost to 11 and blow your hair back.

I dont have an F8X, I have two s65 powered cars. Trust me, I am dedicated to the s65. Do I turn my appreciation and celebration of the s65 into negativity on the s55? No. Can I talk about how I enjoy my cars without even mentioning the s55? yes.

Am I insecure about the facts? no. what facts are there to be insecure about? The s65 has all the merits posted before by a forum member. Those are the merits that motivated me to swap one into a 1 series and cast aside the turbo motor. Trust me. I get it. I prefere the NA s65 over the turbo motors... does that make me ignore the facts that on paper, in stock form, the m4 beats the e9x in lap times, economy, braking, weight, etc. No. Do I care if it wins in those departments? no. Do I want to buy an M4 for those facts on paper alone? No as it doesnt personally do it for me. I am fine not purchasing the car. I am not loosing sleep over it or making threads about it on the forums.

[rngrjag]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

I dont have an F8X, I have two s65 powered cars. Trust me, I am dedicated to the s65. Do I turn my appreciation and celebration of the s65 into negativity on the s55? No. Can I talk about how I enjoy my cars without even mentioning the s55? yes.

Am I insecure about the facts? no. what facts are there to be insecure about? The s65 has all the merits posted before by a forum member. Those are the merits that motivated me to swap one into a 1 series and cast aside the turbo motor. Trust me. I get it. I prefere the NA s65 over the turbo motors... does that make me ignore the facts that on paper, in stock form, the m4 beats the e9x in lap times, economy, braking, weight, etc. No. Do I care if it wins in those departments? no. Do I want to buy an M4 for those facts on paper alone? No as it doesnt personally do it for me. I am fine not purchasing the car. I am not loosing sleep over it or making threads about it on the forums.

Once again you conveniently ignore the FACT I was highlighting with my OP...your retort to my points is that the new car has numerical superiority--which is odd, since I conceded that as a premise in my argument. I was, and am, struck by the FACT THAT, DESPITE THE OBVIOUS STATISTICAL SUPERIORITY, THE NEW ///M HAS NOT RECEIVED THE ACCOLADES OF THE OLD CAR. I bolded that just so you could understand what I have been stating all along. This is an E92 M forum, bud, and discussion about E92 Ms, and its competition, is what the board is for, and why I enjoy it. So, your point about "loosing sleep" is silly, and your "making threads about it on forums," asinine. What, pray tell, Aristotle, should one do on a forum? Obviously, both my insecurity for purchasing a last week of E92 M3 production, despite KNOWING the new model was coming out as a twin turbo (and BECAUSE of this fact), and my teeny-tiny little member MUST be why I was pointing out that the old ///M3 had accolades and awards for days, while the new one DOES NOT have a one.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by rngrjag

Once again you conveniently ignore the FACT I was highlighting with my OP...your retort to my points is that the new car has numerical superiority--which is odd, since I conceded that as a premise in my argument. I was, and am, struck by the FACT THAT, DESPITE THE OBVIOUS STATISTICAL SUPERIORITY, THE NEW ///M HAS NOT RECEIVED THE ACCOLADES OF THE OLD CAR. I bolded that just so you could understand what I have been stating all along. This is an E92 M forum, bud, and discussion about E92 Ms, and its competition, is what the board is for, and why I enjoy it. So, your point about "loosing sleep" is silly, and your "making threads about it on forums," asinine. What, pray tell, Aristotle, should one do on a forum? Obviously, both my insecurity for purchasing a last week of E92 M3 production, despite KNOWING the new model was coming out as a twin turbo (and BECAUSE of this fact), and my teeny-tiny little member MUST be why I was pointing out that the old ///M3 had accolades and awards for days, while the new one DOES NOT have a one.

Ok, ill be more clear and address your Accolades.

The fact the that the M4, despite being superior to the e9x in the aspects that cars are judged on for being awarded those accolades and not receiving your the awards, is more a demonstration of how far BMW's competition has come. Other brands have caught up to the m3 ( and many have surpassed) and times are different. The lack of Accolades are not an example of the reasons I do not emotionally want a F8X and will be keeping my s65 toys and has ZERO to do with the e9x.

I didnt mean to insult you or anything but your original post, despite your intention, absolutely comes off when written as an insure e9x owner. Im not the only person who took it that way and I never mentioned your "Teeny-Tiny Little Member."

[rngrjag]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

Ok, ill be more clear and address your Accolades.

The fact the that the M4, despite being superior to the e9x in the aspects that cars are judged on for being awarded those accolades and not receiving your the awards, is more a demonstration of how far BMW's competition has come. Other brands have caught up to the m3 ( and many have surpassed) and times are different. The lack of Accolades are not an example of the reasons I do not emotionally want a F8X and will be keeping my s65 toys and has ZERO to do with the e9x.

I didnt mean to insult you or anything but your original post, despite your intention, absolutely comes off when written as an insure e9x owner. Im not the only person who took it that way and I never mentioned your "Teeny-Tiny Little Member."

Your armchair psychology regarding my "insecurity" occasioned that remark. You did mean to insult me when you stated I was "trolling." We typically use that as a pejorative for people who don't care or know anything about a particular car or a marque but trash them anyway, just to be an ass.

My post was support for the "sour grapes" E92 ///M community. We have collectively been maligned by the F8X community as bashing THEIR CAR, which is simply not true. I, and many others here, have been around BMW ///M cars long enough to know that the M Division has long stated that adding turbos was essentially a cop-out way to make a "special" car. Some of us actually buy ///Ms precisely because they USED to have high-revving bespoke motors. When the new model came out, we were lambasted as "complainers," "haters," "insecure," etc., etc., ad naseum. What I objected to, and have clearly stated before, was that in ONE generation M Division abandoned nearly everything that made previous M cars "soulful." The steering, the sound, the linear, naturally aspirated power. Look, an electric car, such as a Tesla, delivers monstrous torque and can be "quicker" to 60. Who gives a shit? Many M enthusiasts LIKE revving the motor to the moon for power, LIKE the banshee wail as you approach a redline that is normally reserved for race cars. However, when we articulate perfectly rational, well-reasoned arguments for why we LIKE the E92 better, we are "bitter" or "can't afford" the new car. Give me a f***ing break.

Couple my subjective enthusiasm for the previously espoused M Division philosophy, now abandoned, with the FACT that many aspects of the newer BMWs are not being as well-received by the automotive press. Seems we E92 ///M owners aren't bitter, "insecure," or trolls. Seems like our subjective judgments are being echoed by the lack of accolades received by the new cars. I don't have an axe to grind with F8X owners. I have an axe to grind with BMW and the M Division producing cars that I don't appreciate to the same degree as the older models, DESPITE their numerical superiority. As an enthusiast, I speak with my dollars. As a forum member, I speak with posts. However, if E92 ///M owners love BMWs and are disappointed with the new models, but would like BMW to retain our business by building //M cars we want to buy, how does that make me "insecure" or a "troll?" This isn't about the usual internecine battle about the newer model being "better," etc. This is about BMW and ///M Division diluting their heritage, the ///M brand, and totally abandoning their previously clearly articulated philosophy.

The E46 ///M3 to E92 ///M3 was about a new motor. But the philosophy was the same.

The E39 ///M5 to the V-10 ///M5 (can't remember the model designation) was about a new motor. But the philosophy was the same.

The E92 ///M to F8X ///M is about a new motor. BUT THE PHILOSOPHY HAS BEEN ABANDONED, and the car has suffered as a result, at least with respect to the critical acclaim, DESPITE its empirical superiority.

The V-10 ///M5 to the F10 ///M5 is about a new motor. BUT THE PHILOSOPHY HAS BEEN ABANDONED, and the car has been panned by critics, DESPITE its empirical superiority.

SEE A TREND HERE? How about I, as an ///M enthusiast who actually buys these cars new, tells BMW to get their head out of their fourth point of contact and return to what made ///M cars appealing, not just to me, apparently, but to the professionals who make a living driving and testing these cars? How the hell is that insecurity, or trolling, or bashing F8X owners and their cars? That's called being an enthusiast, and being an enthusiast for what ///M Division used to stand for, and the cars they built as a result. Hence my comments about the Ford GT350. If one has a particular preference for a high-revving, mean sounding, normally aspirated V-8, manual transmission car, it seems this will fit the bill nicely. BUT I WOULD PREFER TO BUY A BMW ///M MADE TO SIMILAR SPECIFICATIONS.

Your comments in bold are a cop out. No shit other manufacturers are improving their products. That is merely a truism. It doesn't mean M Division had to abandon its core philosophy to compete. Hell, if Ford can build the GT350, BMW certainly could. Get it now?

[malrash]

Originally Posted by rngrjag

Your armchair psychology regarding my "insecurity" occasioned that remark. You did mean to insult me when you stated I was "trolling." We typically use that as a pejorative for people who don't care or know anything about a particular car or a marque but trash them anyway, just to be an ass.

My post was support for the "sour grapes" E92 ///M community. We have collectively been maligned by the F8X community as bashing THEIR CAR, which is simply not true. I, and many others here, have been around BMW ///M cars long enough to know that the M Division has long stated that adding turbos was essentially a cop-out way to make a "special" car. Some of us actually buy ///Ms precisely because they USED to have high-revving bespoke motors. When the new model came out, we were lambasted as "complainers," "haters," "insecure," etc., etc., ad naseum. What I objected to, and have clearly stated before, was that in ONE generation M Division abandoned nearly everything that made previous M cars "soulful." The steering, the sound, the linear, naturally aspirated power. Look, an electric car, such as a Tesla, delivers monstrous torque and can be "quicker" to 60. Who gives a shit? Many M enthusiasts LIKE revving the motor to the moon for power, LIKE the banshee wail as you approach a redline that is normally reserved for race cars. However, when we articulate perfectly rational, well-reasoned arguments for why we LIKE the E92 better, we are "bitter" or "can't afford" the new car. Give me a f***ing break.

Couple my subjective enthusiasm for the previously espoused M Division philosophy, now abandoned, with the FACT that many aspects of the newer BMWs are not being as well-received by the automotive press. Seems we E92 ///M owners aren't bitter, "insecure," or trolls. Seems like our subjective judgments are being echoed by the lack of accolades received by the new cars. I don't have an axe to grind with F8X owners. I have an axe to grind with BMW and the M Division producing cars that I don't appreciate to the same degree as the older models, DESPITE their numerical superiority. As an enthusiast, I speak with my dollars. As a forum member, I speak with posts. However, if E92 ///M owners love BMWs and are disappointed with the new models, but would like BMW to retain our business by building //M cars we want to buy, how does that make me "insecure" or a "troll?" This isn't about the usual internecine battle about the newer model being "better," etc. This is about BMW and ///M Division diluting their heritage, the ///M brand, and totally abandoning their previously clearly articulated philosophy.

The E46 ///M3 to E92 ///M3 was about a new motor. But the philosophy was the same.

The E39 ///M5 to the V-10 ///M5 (can't remember the model designation) was about a new motor. But the philosophy was the same.

The E92 ///M to F8X ///M is about a new motor. BUT THE PHILOSOPHY HAS BEEN ABANDONED, and the car has suffered as a result, at least with respect to the critical acclaim, DESPITE its empirical superiority.

The V-10 ///M5 to the F10 ///M5 is about a new motor. BUT THE PHILOSOPHY HAS BEEN ABANDONED, and the car has been panned by critics, DESPITE its empirical superiority.

SEE A TREND HERE? How about I, as an ///M enthusiast who actually buys these cars new, tells BMW to get their head out of their fourth point of contact and return to what made ///M cars appealing, not just to me, apparently, but to the professionals who make a living driving and testing these cars? How the hell is that insecurity, or trolling, or bashing F8X owners and their cars? That's called being an enthusiast, and being an enthusiast for what ///M Division used to stand for, and the cars they built as a result. Hence my comments about the Ford GT350. If one has a particular preference for a high-revving, mean sounding, normally aspirated V-8, manual transmission car, it seems this will fit the bill nicely. BUT I WOULD PREFER TO BUY A BMW ///M MADE TO SIMILAR SPECIFICATIONS.

Your comments in bold are a cop out. No shit other manufacturers are improving their products. That is merely a truism. It doesn't mean M Division had to abandon its core philosophy to compete. Hell, if Ford can build the GT350, BMW certainly could. Get it now?

fantastically worded.
Should be easy to follow now.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by rngrjag

Your armchair psychology regarding my "insecurity" occasioned that remark. You did mean to insult me when you stated I was "trolling." We typically use that as a pejorative for people who don't care or know anything about a particular car or a marque but trash them anyway, just to be an ass.

My post was support for the "sour grapes" E92 ///M community. We have collectively been maligned by the F8X community as bashing THEIR CAR, which is simply not true. I, and many others here, have been around BMW ///M cars long enough to know that the M Division has long stated that adding turbos was essentially a cop-out way to make a "special" car. Some of us actually buy ///Ms precisely because they USED to have high-revving bespoke motors. When the new model came out, we were lambasted as "complainers," "haters," "insecure," etc., etc., ad naseum. What I objected to, and have clearly stated before, was that in ONE generation M Division abandoned nearly everything that made previous M cars "soulful." The steering, the sound, the linear, naturally aspirated power. Look, an electric car, such as a Tesla, delivers monstrous torque and can be "quicker" to 60. Who gives a shit? Many M enthusiasts, LIKE revving the motor to the moon for power, LIKE the banshee wail as you approach a redline that is normally reserved for race cars. However, when we articulate perfectly rational, well-reasoned arguments for why we LIKE the E92 better, we are "bitter" or "can't afford" the new car. Give me a f***ing break.

Couple my subjective enthusiasm for the previously espoused M Division philosophy, now abandoned, with the FACT that many aspects of the newer BMWs are not being as well-received by the automotive press. Seems we E92 ///M owners aren't bitter, "insecure," or trolls. Seems like our subjective judgments are being echoed by the lack of accolades received by the new cars. I don't have an axe to grind with F8X owners. I have an axe to grind with BMW and the M Division producing cars that I don't appreciate to the same degree as the older models, DESPITE their numerical superiority. As an enthusiast, I speak with my dollars. As a forum member, I speak with posts. However, if E92 ///M owners love BMWs and are disappointed with the new models, but would like BMW to retain our business by building //M cars we want to buy, how does that make me "insecure" or a "troll?" This isn't about the usual internecine battle about the newer model being "better," etc. This is about BMW and ///M Division diluting their heritage, the ///M brand, and totally abandoning their previously clearly articulated philosophy.

The E46 ///M3 to E92 ///M3 was about a new motor. But the philosophy was the same.

The E39 ///M5 to the V-10 ///M5 (can't remember the model designation) was about a new motor. But the philosophy was the same.

The E92 ///M to F8X ///M is about a new motor. BUT THE PHILOSOPHY HAS BEEN ABANDONED, and the car has suffered as a result, at least with respect to the critical acclaim, DESPITE its empirical superiority.

The V-10 ///M5 to the F10 ///M5 is about a new motor. BUT THE PHILOSOPHY HAS BEEN ABANDONED, and the car has been panned by critics, DESPITE its empirical superiority.

SEE A TREND HERE? How about I, as an ///M enthusiast who actually buys these cars new, tells BMW to get their head out of their fourth point of contact and return to what made ///M cars appealing, not just to me, apparently, but to the professionals who make a living driving and testing these cars? How the hell is that insecurity, or trolling, or bashing F8X owners and their cars? That's called being an enthusiast, and being an enthusiast for what ///M Division used to stand for, and the cars they built as a result. Hence my comments about the Ford GT350. If one has a particular preference for a high-revving, mean sounding, normally aspirated V-8, manual transmission car, it seems this will fit the bill nicely. BUT I WOULD PREFER TO BUY A BMW ///M MADE TO SIMILAR SPECIFICATIONS.

Your comments in bold are a cop out. No shit other manufacturers are improving their products. That is merely a truism. It doesn't mean M Division had to abandon its core philosophy to compete. Hell, if Ford can build the GT350, BMW certainly could. Get it now?

I agree with your sentiments. I am very much in line with all of your concerns and value the same things in a car. I agree with your opinion.

It was more your original post and the language you use suggests a very different tone than your post above. There have been a lot of threads on here baiting in f8x guys and so much subjective arguing back and forth that it gets very tired. Despite whatever you meant to say, your original post does come off like one of those threads.