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      11-19-2017, 10:32 AM   #23
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A much broader. bigger question imo is what folk rarely seem to appreciate in respect how endemic the use of fossil fuels is in just about every single factory product we use every day i.e. almost everything that makes our economies tick! The energy source(s) needed to wholesale replace fossil fuels to allow every factory on the planet to produce said products is THE massive challenge ahead of us - this discussion is indeed referencing multiple uses of ICE's but perhaps overly focused on transport alone - pertinent to this forum of course but really can't be considered in isolation. Just consider the scale of replacing the power demand for everything non-automobile related which has to happen in parallel - massive challenge.

I suspect we have yet to see the real game changing breakthroughs in alternative energy that are to come, whether that be some sort of fusion breakthrough or whatever, that likely will make this discussion obsolete . I do have a seriously hard time seeing how current non-fossil fuel technologies are going to replace the current burden on fossil fuels, beyond transportation alone. Also be aware that it is probably more correct to say that the "cost of extracting" fossil fuels will limit their use in time vs saying they will be 'gone' by such and such a date. The vast majority of producing fields (oil case) average 30-40% recovery i.e. we leave 60-70% of the HC resource in the ground largely (not exclusively) due to the currently prohibitive cost to extract more (much higher recoveries for gas). Technologies that re-invent secondary and tertiary recovery mechanisms could delay the demise of fossil fuels to longer than some think. So I guess I am hoping (dreaming!) for new scientific breakthroughs in energy alternatives than the current option mix if we are to progress as quickly as obviously the planet needs us to. And yes I work in the fossil fuel industry!
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      11-19-2017, 11:11 AM   #24
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      11-19-2017, 11:24 AM   #25
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I kinda read through this quickly. My only comment is I have to assume the battery is large, heavy and in the bed of the the trailer and not in the tractor. So my two concerns would be that (1) all tractors would have to be standardized to Tesla's battery configuration (2) the weight of the battery would significantly reduce the load capacity of the trailer, which would limit the semi's load carrying capability. The weight that can be carried per truck is limited to the capacity of roads and bridges they travel on, which would reduce the load per mile efficiency.

A question no one asked in my opinion.
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      11-19-2017, 12:12 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I kinda read through this quickly. My only comment is I have to assume the battery is large, heavy and in the bed of the the trailer and not in the tractor.
Large, yes. Heavy, yes. In the bed, no.

Quote:
The battery... takes up a space about three feet high, and stretches from the front wheels to the second pair.
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-truck-revealed/
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      11-19-2017, 12:54 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RABAUKE View Post
I'm a retired guy who has been around long enough that I tend to question things that are touted as the latest and greatest. I put this up for discussion, and in the hopes that folks will see that EV's of all sorts aren't quite the solution or at least quick win that some would have you believe. I have said on this forum on lots of other posts that I think that EV's are decades from becoming the mainstream, I could be wrong, but there are numerous hurdles to over come as this article points out and how numerous other stories that I have posted from this author illustrate.

It occurs to me that some governments are going to outright ban ICE in the next decade or so, and given my earlier mentioned age and questioning of things, and I'll throw in that my job had me imbedded in government for a significant period of time that i don't trust that governments have the answers to all of these questions but they will stuff their solution down our throats any way.
It's strange when these types of threads pop up, usually the most vehemently anti-progress/irrational/ones that simply don't even try to understand the technology- try to claim that the opposition is saying somehow a switch will be"flipped" on overnight in 5 years and everything from a semi truck to a weed-eater will be electric.

Your throwing up a false argument, trying to put words in the mouth's of everyone that sees this as the future. "Future" doesn't mean everything changes overnight and "da guberment" comes to confiscate your ICE car.

Honestly, I see your posts as simple scaremongering due to irrational fear of the unknown.
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      11-19-2017, 04:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
It's strange when these types of threads pop up, usually the most vehemently anti-progress/irrational/ones that simply don't even try to understand the technology- try to claim that the opposition is saying somehow a switch will be"flipped" on overnight in 5 years and everything from a semi truck to a weed-eater will be electric.

Your throwing up a false argument, trying to put words in the mouth's of everyone that sees this as the future. "Future" doesn't mean everything changes overnight and "da guberment" comes to confiscate your ICE car.

Honestly, I see your posts as simple scaremongering due to irrational fear of the unknown.
So I know you drive a Tesla so clearly you've made up your mind and I know you are happy with your EV. I'm not scaremongering, and I don't have any fear, "Irrational" or otherwise.

I've made my point before and it's simple and I'll repeat it. I think the "grid"/infrastructure is a long way from being ready to support any large-fast transition to EV's, this isn't anything other than listening to arguments on both sides and coming to my own conclusion. I suspect that at some point in time ICE will be few and far between, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I might be wrong and you might be right, but I guess time will tell.

Having said that, I seriously don't see myself driving an EV, now or in the future. I'm not close minded, if one comes to market that speaks to me, then I'd consider it. In the mean time, I'll still put diesel in my benz, and gas in my 993 and 45 year old boat.
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      11-19-2017, 04:58 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Large, yes. Heavy, yes. In the bed, no.



https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-truck-revealed/
Still, it affects the overall weight, and limits the cargo hold.
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      11-19-2017, 09:22 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RABAUKE View Post
So I know you drive a Tesla so clearly you've made up your mind and I know you are happy with your EV. I'm not scaremongering, and I don't have any fear, "Irrational" or otherwise.
Huh? What Tesla?
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      11-19-2017, 09:49 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciaranob View Post
I suspect we have yet to see the real game changing breakthroughs in alternative energy that are to come, whether that be some sort of fusion breakthrough or whatever, that likely will make this discussion obsolete . I do have a seriously hard time seeing how current non-fossil fuel technologies are going to replace the current burden on fossil fuels, beyond transportation alone.
The move from fossil fuels to renewable is happening. In Australia we love our dirty coal because of their wonderfully strong lobby groups; but depending on where you are in the world depends on the most viable renewable alternative.

Hydro, Wind, Solar, Geothermal and Tidal all work - some cost more than others, some are further advanced than others but in some parts of the world some are actually cheaper than fossil fuels. I know I'm being a bit vague, but what works in Australia doesn't work in Antarctica.

The big ones are wind and solar. Wind works wonderfully in cold windy parts of the world. Solar works wonderfully where the sun shines. In Australia it's now cheaper to generate solar (total cost of ownership) than it is coal. Obviously, that doesn't work nearly as well in Britain.

It's happening slowly because of vested interests, but it is happening.

The biggest challenge to renewable isn't actually the generator - it's the storage. Coal and Gas have this wonderful ability to be turned up at a moment's notice - whereas wind works only when its windy, solar works only when it's sunny; Geothermal just creates a set amount night & day.

Again, there are solutions, but they're expensive - so the 'challenge' for renewable is they can really only be used for "base load", then they need to be topped up using fossil.

I was going to go on and say this is immaterial for EV because even with "the long tailpipe" they're more environmentally friendly; but I thought I'd check my facts at somewhere more independent than tesla.com, and it turns out in the USA and Australia they're not.
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      11-20-2017, 07:05 AM   #32
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I guess your post on 11.11.2017 led me to think that:

"Which has nothing to do with what I was talking about...but hey, I guess that's the way we are playing it? Then there's this:"
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      11-20-2017, 07:22 AM   #33
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Good information thread.
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      11-20-2017, 08:33 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinylengraver View Post
I have one basic issue with the whole EV concept.
In terms of simple physics, would you rather burn some fossil fuel in your ICE vehicle to power it and suffer minor energy loss as compared to the situation where you are burning the same fossil fuel to power the turbine to create the electricity to charge the battery to power your EV?
I mean it makes no sense at all if you look at it this way, does it?
How is it better, cheaper, more efficient, cleaner... whatever???

I mean to most ordinary people electricity looks like a clean, cheap and abundant energy source - you just plug something in and voila - magic!
Seriously, I think this is how they are trying to sell this entire EV concept to people. Like they just don't know any better and will buy into yet another scam as long as it is a cool and responsible and politically correct thing to do. It's all about the "environment", you know. But if you ask an ordinary person, they would not even know the definition of the word, I bet.

The one thing that is certain is that your battery pack will degrade over time and your range will decrease until your car becomes a lawn ornament and you will only be driving it as far as your plug-in cord will reach. Just like that laptop you bought five years ago. I thing this will ensure that cars become truly disposable with an expiry date set by the battery pack, and that is how you do business ladies and gentlemen, thank you.
Nuclear electricity is cheap, clean and safe but after Chernobyl, new regulations made it impossible to bring in more nuclear power plants.

The Soviets were sloppy, nuclear power done right is safe.
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      11-20-2017, 08:42 AM   #35
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Close to 80% of France's electricity comes from nuclear energy, in the US only about 20% of our electricity comes from nuclear energy.

France is the world's largest net exporter of electricity.
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      11-20-2017, 09:20 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smrtypants44 View Post
The reasons why people buy a Tesla car is because of emotion: Its fast, its high tech, they want to save the environment.
I have a friend who lives in CA. He owns a Tesla. He told me the #1 reason to buy a Tesla was that you can use the carpool lane driving solo, because you're better than everyone else.
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      11-20-2017, 10:37 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by CO_Steve View Post
I have a friend who lives in CA. He owns a Tesla. He told me the #1 reason to buy a Tesla was that you can use the carpool lane driving solo, because you're better than everyone else.
It's the same here in Ontario, Hybrids and EV's are issued with Licence plates that are green rather than the normal blue. let s you drive in HOV lanes solo and preferred parking in malls etc. Plus all the free places to charge up, well paid for with tax dollars free. Oh, and if you purchase a hybrid or EV you are eligible for up to $14,000 rebate from government.....
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      11-20-2017, 11:26 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by anglo View Post
Close to 80% of France's electricity comes from nuclear energy, in the US only about 20% of our electricity comes from nuclear energy.

France is the world's largest net exporter of electricity.
And they actually recycle unspent rods instead of piling it up in barrels and talking about making a place to put it, later.
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      11-20-2017, 11:29 AM   #39
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How much will the battery cost if it goes bad during the million mile warranty?
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      11-20-2017, 12:10 PM   #40
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Agreed - of course it is indeed happening but it has been happening for over two decades imo - some of the more significant advances arguably have been in storage potential/capacity for alternate energy. Recall in 1998 having to make a presentation on energy mix at a leadership training school attempting to quantify this (company I worked for had announced itself as the largest developer of solar panels despite being a fraction of it's total business), but in respect total energy use across all industries worldwide, (then) current and predicted contributions from renewables fell massively short - this state of affairs has not appreciably changed in those 20 years. I have no doubt whatsoever that a critical tipping point will be reached (with respect to a transition from fossil fuels) and/or our ingenuity will overcome this challenge eventually but I suspect it will take a newer form of energy breakthrough (preferably one that surmounts storage concerns) to truly make it happen and in a meaningful timeframe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xQx View Post
The move from fossil fuels to renewable is happening. In Australia we love our dirty coal because of their wonderfully strong lobby groups; but depending on where you are in the world depends on the most viable renewable alternative.

.....
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      11-20-2017, 12:37 PM   #41
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Will autopilot keeps truckers out of the fast lane, that is more important than the environment.
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      11-20-2017, 12:48 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciaranob View Post
A much broader. bigger question imo is what folk rarely seem to appreciate in respect how endemic the use of fossil fuels is in just about every single factory product we use every day i.e. almost everything that makes our economies tick! The energy source(s) needed to wholesale replace fossil fuels to allow every factory on the planet to produce said products is THE massive challenge ahead of us - this discussion is indeed referencing multiple uses of ICE's but perhaps overly focused on transport alone - pertinent to this forum of course but really can't be considered in isolation. Just consider the scale of replacing the power demand for everything non-automobile related which has to happen in parallel - massive challenge.

I suspect we have yet to see the real game changing breakthroughs in alternative energy that are to come, whether that be some sort of fusion breakthrough or whatever, that likely will make this discussion obsolete . I do have a seriously hard time seeing how current non-fossil fuel technologies are going to replace the current burden on fossil fuels, beyond transportation alone. Also be aware that it is probably more correct to say that the "cost of extracting" fossil fuels will limit their use in time vs saying they will be 'gone' by such and such a date. The vast majority of producing fields (oil case) average 30-40% recovery i.e. we leave 60-70% of the HC resource in the ground largely (not exclusively) due to the currently prohibitive cost to extract more (much higher recoveries for gas). Technologies that re-invent secondary and tertiary recovery mechanisms could delay the demise of fossil fuels to longer than some think. So I guess I am hoping (dreaming!) for new scientific breakthroughs in energy alternatives than the current option mix if we are to progress as quickly as obviously the planet needs us to. And yes I work in the fossil fuel industry!
I would say, again, that the EV is merely a new way to deliver energy to the wheels without an on board fuel tank. Whatever that technology may be in the future that replaces fossil fuel, generating it at strategic locations and delivery to the customer without having to transport solid, liquid, or gas (as in air) seems more efficient.
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      11-20-2017, 12:51 PM   #43
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How much will the battery cost if it goes bad during the million mile warranty?
Large scale manufacturing and development will drive the prices of battery manufacturing down for the sheer incentive of market competitiveness.
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      11-20-2017, 12:57 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by RABAUKE View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
It's strange when these types of threads pop up, usually the most vehemently anti-progress/irrational/ones that simply don't even try to understand the technology- try to claim that the opposition is saying somehow a switch will be"flipped" on overnight in 5 years and everything from a semi truck to a weed-eater will be electric.

Your throwing up a false argument, trying to put words in the mouth's of everyone that sees this as the future. "Future" doesn't mean everything changes overnight and "da guberment" comes to confiscate your ICE car.

Honestly, I see your posts as simple scaremongering due to irrational fear of the unknown.
So I know you drive a Tesla so clearly you've made up your mind and I know you are happy with your EV. I'm not scaremongering, and I don't have any fear, "Irrational" or otherwise.

I've made my point before and it's simple and I'll repeat it. I think the "grid"/infrastructure is a long way from being ready to support any large-fast transition to EV's, this isn't anything other than listening to arguments on both sides and coming to my own conclusion. I suspect that at some point in time ICE will be few and far between, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I might be wrong and you might be right, but I guess time will tell.

Having said that, I seriously don't see myself driving an EV, now or in the future. I'm not close minded, if one comes to market that speaks to me, then I'd consider it. In the mean time, I'll still put diesel in my benz, and gas in my 993 and 45 year old boat.
There will always be hold outs for old, comfortable technology. I think some of us, myself included, will have to come to grips with the fact that we are discussion something that probably won't be fully realized until after we are dead and gone.
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