German Engineering = Reliability?!

[Atomicchicken]

I have heard in the past about the somewhat poor reliability of German cars and checked online but it still seems as if most reputable automotive sites still rate German cars as average or below average in reliability. I was just wondering why this is the case? I associate high quality and high price when I think of products from Germany but for some strange reason reliability is not one quality that jumps to mind. I often hear that German engineering is world class and that these cars are over engineered but if that is the case, why are their reliability scores still lower than other brands?

[FirstF80InSpace]

I think part of the problem is that German automakers tend to over-engineer their cars to compete with the likes of Lexus. So what they do is load their car with new cutting edge features, electronics, etc. This leads to a greater chance of something going wrong.

Historically speaking, the electronics parts of German cars are their weakest link. No doubt the major components of their cars are very durable, it's the new electronic stuff that tends to have the bugs. Combine this with the fact that German cars are expensive to fix, and there you have a misconception that German cars are largely unreliable.

Having said that, I've owned Audi, Mercedes and BMW over the past 15 years, and (knock on wood) never had a major thing go wrong with any of my German cars. Just minor electrical things that were covered under warranty. Ie. Telecommunications module, sunroof switch, noisy fuel pump...

[JoeFromPA]

German premium brands vs. Japanese premium brands...

They both use the latest technology in their products and have for a long time now.
They both engineer very solidly.
Germans appear to be more profitable overall at a given price point, indicating their costs are lower.

....

Everyone has their own experiences. My observation would be that Japanese automakers have tighter quality control. With german vehicles you see ones that are perfect and the next one is a reliability mess - this is why people still buy VWs, because enough people have perfect ones to counterbalance those who have awful experiences. Whereas it's extremely rare to find ANYONE who has a terrible experience with a Lexus (for example); their consistency and quality control is better somehow.

As an anecdote: My m3 is now 4 years, 5 days, and 51k miles old and has been absolutely perfect. Technically it's been the single most reliable vehicle I've ever owned as it's needed less maintenance and repairs than any other vehicle over 51k miles.

[Fast4d]

they tend to go with new designs and technology for sake of performance before it is proven and matured.

look at the N63

first of its kind in the production world.

look at the reliability.....horrible.

[Aaaaaaaaa]

Who buys cars for their reliability anyway

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by pheerIx

Who buys cars for their reliability anyway

People that buy Japanese, especially Toyota and Lexus.

[Aaaaaaaaa]

Originally Posted by alex2364

People that buy Japanese, especially Toyota and Lexus.

Sad. They're dead inside.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by pheerIx

Who buys cars for their reliability anyway

You consider it in your next purchase after a horrible experience. I know BMWs aren’t perfect, but the F8X cars have had years of very good history in this area. It is definitely one of the things that helped me choose the M3 over the Alfa QV.

[EricSMG]

I don't think engineering directly correlates to reliability, necessarily. A dead-bolt is not a product of high/precision engineering and yet it's one of the most reliable mechanical components in the modern world.

Conversely, the Space shuttle is the product of some of the most advanced engineering ever and it blows up.

As such, I personally think engineering correlates more to complexity/capabilities/performance/precision/harmony of many sub-systems/etc..

[SunnyD]

Originally Posted by pheerIx

Who buys cars for their reliability anyway

People that want to keep their cars past the warranty period?

[///M Power-Belgium]

=> https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=786615

[10"]

I think most people tend to confuse reliability with maintenance.

German cars require more maintenance. More replacement of parts at shorter intervals. Pretty typical of more high performance parts. A lot of ordinary Japanese and American cars are not trying to be performance oriented; so their parts last longer and require less maintenance and/or replacement.

That being said I do think BMW for example have frequently dropped the ball on things like water pumps, fuel pumps, etc.

The fact is modern cars on the whole are fairly reliable...german cars are no exception.

[insanecoder]

..not to mention that on percentage basis more BMW owners mod and tune their cars running over spec
hows that suppose to improve "reliability" stats?

mine is running very smoothly w/o issues (made in Munich) ya vo!

[Emilime75]

As much as I love my BMW, and German cars in general, and as sad as it may be, my 14 year old Chevy Suburban has been just about bullet proof. In the 8 years and 80k miles I've only had to make 2 repairs, aside from general maintenance and wear items, and neither of those left me stranded or kept me from driving it until they were fixed...and not once did I have to bust out a laptop and do any coding for something as minor as a battery replacement.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by 10"

I think most people tend to confuse reliability with maintenance.

German cars require more maintenance. More replacement of parts at shorter intervals. Pretty typical of more high performance parts. A lot of ordinary Japanese and American cars are not trying to be performance oriented; so their parts last longer and require less maintenance and/or replacement.

That being said I do think BMW for example have frequently dropped the ball on things like water pumps, fuel pumps, etc.

The fact is modern cars on the whole are fairly reliable...german cars are no exception.

Nah. Poor engineering. Parts are too complicated to be manufactured at a competitive economic cost. Mazda makes the performance oriented Miata, those things never break.

[backhill]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

I don't think engineering directly correlates to reliability, necessarily. A dead-bolt is not a product of high/precision engineering and yet it's one of the most reliable mechanical components in the modern world.

Conversely, the Space shuttle is the product of some of the most advanced engineering ever and it blows up.

As such, I personally think engineering correlates more to complexity/capabilities/performance/precision/harmony of many sub-systems/etc..

Seconded. How you engineer a part may affect the reliability, but not necessarily so. Quality testing and re-engineering, and then testing and adjusting again and again is what leads to higher reliability. You can over engineer and over-spec something, but it may not be optimized for lifetime stresses and wear and tear, and maybe one-time use, i.e. a top-fuel dragster. High level engineering, high level performance, one-time use.

The best examples as it relates to high use would be how many times a car door is opened and closed, or how many times a vehicle is started and cycled through the ignition process. Engineers need to guess the lifetime of stress that would be endured on the vehicle for all of the components involved in those activities.

Every automaker will have their own benchmark for how much testing is required. They are engineering around uncertainty and risks of failure vs how the part actually functions. While they are not mutually exclusive, they also are not necessarily products of one another.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by backhill

Seconded. How you engineer a part may affect the reliability, but not necessarily so. Quality testing and re-engineering, and then testing and adjusting again and again is what leads to higher reliability. You can over engineer and over-spec something, but it may not be optimized for lifetime stresses and wear and tear, and maybe one-time use, i.e. a top-fuel dragster. High level engineering, high level performance, one-time use.

The best examples as it relates to high use would be how many times a car door is opened and closed, or how many times a vehicle is started and cycled through the ignition process. Engineers need to guess the lifetime of stress that would be endured on the vehicle for all of the components involved in those activities.

Every automaker will have their own benchmark for how much testing is required. They are engineering around uncertainty and risks of failure vs how the part actually functions. While they are not mutually exclusive, they also are not necessarily products of one another.

Engineers rarely ever guess. If they did, there'd be a lot of dead people in the world. If anything, BMW is an engineering-driven company that advances the state of the art in some areas as engineering challenges, yet there is an economic factor to be considered in the design and manufacture of parts and components and subassemblies.

MTBF can be calculated for almost any machine, component, or part. There is hardly any mystery to automotive design and manufacturing at this point in an industry that is well over 100 years old and over billions of product manufactured. Reliability is designed into each component, varibility depends mostly on adherence to manufacturing process and deviation in part tolerence and the buildup of tolerances between mating parts.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by pheerIx

Who buys cars for their reliability anyway

It's never been my primary concern. I've been driving BMWs for 30 years now and none of them have ever caused me trouble. My E39 540i had bad pixels and broken cupholders and a radiator replacement under warranty and one fuel pump that I had to pay for. That's it in 30 years. I really don't care what some report says.

[smrtypants44]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way

Toyota has world-class, gold standard manufacturing- which drives lower defects and issues

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Nah. Poor engineering. Parts are too complicated to be manufactured at a competitive economic cost. Mazda makes the performance oriented Miata, those things never break.

My NB Miata died at 23k miles. Was technically outside of the bad #4 bearing issue, but that's what spun. Plenty of Issues with my later Mazda3, including it being totaled after a minor accident where I was stopped. It took a 30 foot drop to kill my GTI and a telephone pole to kill our X1.

[Redd]

Since we're talking about reliability, I've owned Italians for many years. Alfa 156 V6, Fiat Coupe 20VT Plus, brands well known for their propensity to break down. FIAT - Fix It Again, Tony. Used to hate how the German drivers would insult us Italian drivers that our cars were unreliable.

The M3 is my first BMW and you know what, it's exactly like an Italian in terms of reliability. It's got finicky electronics/sensors and will leave you dead by the roadside. Parts are expensive, like the Italians. And also like the Italians, many parts which should have recommended replacement schedules, don't.

But, having been trained by years of Italian ownership, I know how to make these cars reliable. Do preemptive replacement of parts before they fail. For the M3, some of these parts are rod bearings, throttle actuators, brake vacuum hose with sensor, etc. If you drive it til something fails, normally a small failure will create more problems down the line. My M3 was plagued with tons of issues during my first year of ownership (i got her when she was 6 yrs old). After the first round of issues and preventive replacement, she's been rock solid the past 18 months.

Strangely, the most reliable car I've ever owned was the RenaultSport Megane RS. Rock solid for 5 years of daily driving, trackdays and hill runs. Never even changed one suspension arm in 5 years. Just oil change and drive.

P/S - I'm not in the US, btw.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

My NB Miata died at 23k miles. Was technically outside of the bad #4 bearing issue, but that's what spun. Plenty of Issues with my later Mazda3, including it being totaled after a minor accident where I was stopped. It took a 30 foot drop to kill my GTI and a telephone pole to kill our X1.

I have a coworker with a 30 year old Miata he bought new. He recently had to put a new top on it (2017) and that's about it outside of regular maintenance. Yours sounds like a manufacturing defect.

I have over 850,000 total accumulated miles on BMWs, all but 68K of it on new-purchased cars, so I can say I know what level BMWs can provide for reliability. Out of those miles, I only needed two instances of flatbeds to come to the rescue. But I DIY, so that's the real trick to owning a BMW.