Driver died at buttonwillow today.

[CalSE]

Originally Posted by circlek

This is a video from a couple of years ago when an EVO did two off and back on in front of me. You can see the snap back and heading back across with passenger side facing the corner worker station. This EVO probbly wasn't carrying the same speed which is why he ended up a few hundred feet short of the station, but it gives everyone some idea.

Everyone be safe out there.

https://youtu.be/oWGaz9QOVwk?t=3m4s

Oh man! I am now skerd.

[beats]

Originally Posted by surewin

Yeah, very sad. That's why many driving instructors say that if you know that you're going to dip your tires in the dirt after the esses bc you early apexed or something, it's best to just ride into the dirt.

From my (limited) experience, this is the number one cause of crashes. People losing two wheels, fighting to get back on, and coming right across the track (often into a wall at my tracks...). Scary, and such a basic mistake. I even recall learning when I was 16, in driver training not to fight it if you ever drop wheels off the road. I guess at speed, everyone reacts differently, and in a panic, not always with the best outcome.. I think clubs focus too much on learning the lines (at earlier stages) and not enough on what to do in emergency situations (ie brake failure, 2 wheels off, even safe run-off areas). I guess that's partly a function of how popular the sport has grown, and how many different clubs are out there now.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by skru_fase

From my (limited) experience, this is the number one cause of crashes. People losing two wheels, fighting to get back on, and coming right across the track (often into a wall at my tracks...). Scary, and such a basic mistake. I even recall learning when I was 16, in driver training not to fight it if you ever drop wheels off the road. I guess at speed, everyone reacts differently, and in a panic, not always with the best outcome.. I think clubs focus too much on learning the lines (at earlier stages) and not enough on what to do in emergency situations (ie brake failure, 2 wheels off, even safe run-off areas). I guess that's partly a function of how popular the sport has grown, and how many different clubs are out there now.

I agree with that what if situations should be discussed much more.

[CalSE]

Originally Posted by skru_fase

From my (limited) experience, this is the number one cause of crashes. People losing two wheels, fighting to get back on, and coming right across the track (often into a wall at my tracks...). Scary, and such a basic mistake. I even recall learning when I was 16, in driver training not to fight it if you ever drop wheels off the road. I guess at speed, everyone reacts differently, and in a panic, not always with the best outcome.. I think clubs focus too much on learning the lines (at earlier stages) and not enough on what to do in emergency situations (ie brake failure, 2 wheels off, even safe run-off areas). I guess that's partly a function of how popular the sport has grown, and how many different clubs are out there now.

On every track I have been to, I have studied possible run-offs and barrier locations in the event I am unable make the turns. My memory is poor so I routinely refresh myself every track day during the warm up and/or down laps.

[CalSE]

Double post delete.

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

when I hit ir right I am WOT all the way from entering esses to sunset. If I'm a little off, I have to maintenance on the last apex, but even then it's because I'm worried rather than the car not being able to be full throttle.

Your suspension is uberer than mine; I have to basically maintenance throttle at the last turn or I will understeer off the track; it's almost happened to me a couple times.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by redpriest

Your suspension is uberer than mine; I have to basically maintenance throttle at the last turn or I will understeer off the track; it's almost happened to me a couple times.

Time for suspension! I need brake kit.

[CalSE]

[/QUOTE]

when I hit ir right I am WOT all the way from entering esses to sunset. If I'm a little off, I have to maintenance on the last apex, but even then it's because I'm worried rather than the car not being able to be full throttle.[/QUOTE]

You are WOT from start of esses to sunset! I always have to lift before the last left due to too high of an exit speed.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by CalSE

On every track I have been to, I have studied possible run-offs and barrier locations in the event I am unable make the turns. My memory is poor so I routinely refresh myself every track day during the warm up and/or down laps.

That's taught at every Pacific region BMW CCA school. Look for the run off areas. Where are you going to go if you run out of brakes here? Etc., Etc.

As for a student putting a wheel or two off on the exit? You won't be able to see my hand move to grab the wheel and lock it in place b/c it moves at the speed of light. Had to do it before and I held it until he whoa'd it down a bit. That's the farthest off track a student has ever take me (he barely went off and didn't fight it, fwiw). I'm not going to let a student kill me. I'm more likely to do that to my self...

As for the esses at BW: just look for the Riverside worker station as you enter the esses. This will straighten your line out helping minimize your steering inputs.

[M3 Number 86]

when I hit ir right I am WOT all the way from entering esses to sunset. If I'm a little off, I have to maintenance on the last apex, but even then it's because I'm worried rather than the car not being able to be full throttle.[/QUOTE]

You are WOT from start of esses to sunset! I always have to lift before the last left due to too high of an exit speed.[/QUOTE]
It's because I'm slow lol. What's weird is I'm pretty fast from end of riverside to end. I'm slow from start to club corner. We'll see next time out.

[M3 Number 86]

Got some additional info just talking with other people in the SoCal track community. It's sad to hear.

The death sounded like it was from severe neck snapping and the only reason why the passenger survived is because his head hit the cage pretty hard this not snapping his neck but breaking his jaw, face, and biting of his tongue. Hope he has a good recovery.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by skru_fase

From my (limited) experience, this is the number one cause of crashes. People losing two wheels, fighting to get back on, and coming right across the track (often into a wall at my tracks...). Scary, and such a basic mistake. I even recall learning when I was 16, in driver training not to fight it if you ever drop wheels off the road. I guess at speed, everyone reacts differently, and in a panic, not always with the best outcome.. I think clubs focus too much on learning the lines (at earlier stages) and not enough on what to do in emergency situations (ie brake failure, 2 wheels off, even safe run-off areas). I guess that's partly a function of how popular the sport has grown, and how many different clubs are out there now.

Whether to try and save it keep it on track...always a tough decision. It really comes down to situational awareness and thinking ahead.

For example...you have someone behind you and the back end steps out. Probably not the best time to try and save it. If you're not watching your mirrors, fail to catch the car and then your totally unpredictable. It's not so much the car behind you that will be the issue...it's the one that's 2 back that might not be paying attention not expect the guy in front of him to pull up.

I think there are drivers that try and control the car...then there are drivers that manage weight and work with the car. The weight managers will stay ahead of the car and can keep the car on track.

Ones who are controlling the car will try and force it down the track even if the weight has shifted (aka grip) in a way that will no longer keep it in its intended direction of travel.

This is working with the car...

This is not...

[Kong Sheng Han]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Whether to try and save it keep it on track...always a tough decision. It really comes down to situational awareness and thinking ahead.

For example...you have someone behind you and the back end steps out. Probably not the best time to try and save it. If you're not watching your mirrors, fail to catch the car and then your totally unpredictable. It's not so much the car behind you that will be the issue...it's the one that's 2 back that might not be paying attention not expect the guy in front of him to pull up.

I think there are drivers that try and control the car...then there are drivers that manage weight and work with the car. The weight managers will stay ahead of the car and can keep the car on track.

Ones who are controlling the car will try and force it down the track even if the weight has shifted (aka grip) in a way that will no longer keep it in its intended direction of travel.

This is working with the car...

This is not...

How do you learn these skills? During my autox, I was trying to control the car, and I recognized that I wasn't working with the car. I actually completely spun out once. I'd rather know what to do before I make a mistake at 60+ MPH at the track.

Edit: Here's the video. I was going to make a thread about skid recovery, but you posted here so..

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Kong Sheng Han

How do you learn these skills? During my autox, I was trying to control the car, and I recognized that I wasn't working with the car. I actually completely spun out once. I'd rather know what to do before I make a mistake at 60+ MPH at the track.

Edit: Here's the video. I was going to make a thread about skid recovery, but you posted here so..

IMO...there should be a focus on mindset. You're a weight manager and guide the car by managing weight. You have to know where the weight is, where you want it to go and then figure out how to get it there.

So in my oversteer video...the weight transferred to the right rear wheel, too much weight from too much throttle which causes the loss of grip. So the momentum of the car causes the rear end to step out.

You can lift...but then you shift weight to the front axle away from the rear axle so then you are taking away weight from the place where you need it. So the car will catch and rotate the opposite direction.

So the steering wheel turns right and I stay on the throttle. When you turn the steering wheel right, where does the weight go? To the left. Add throttle, you get some more weight on the left rear wheel...which is the drive wheel where you need some more weight. The front wheels are still guiding the direction of travel. So the key is to get the weight shifted off of the corner that has too much weight before you run out of steering lock. The key to catching the slide and bringing the rear back in is precise throttle control. You will also need to carefully reduce the throttle smoothly to bring weight off of the spinning rear wheel to regain grip. From the video, you can hear the throttle continuing to be applied continuously.

If you can't catch it...you step on the brake to go off wherever the car is pointed. And you stay on the brake until you come to a stop.

[Estoril Blue]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

I agree with that what if situations should be discussed much more.

Instructors should be covering this topic at every Meet and Greet. Every time.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

Instructors should be covering this topic at every Meet and Greet. Every time.

Most of my days are with a school and there is the same introductory meeting that goes over flags and passing zones and things I already know. It's geared towards the new guys. Unless you have instructor don't get any further attention. I often seek instructors out and chat since I know most of them by now.

[Kong Sheng Han]

Thanks Jae.

When you said "so the steering wheel turns right," is that the wheel turning right, by itself, without driver input? Is that what I see in a lot of recovery videos? M_Achilles comes to mind.

And then driver turning it right even more causes the weight shift to the left?

I think the best way for me to learn would be to practice in a controlled environment. Autox comes to mind, but I don't think I can get one in before Jan. 9.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Kong Sheng Han

Thanks Jae.

When you said "so the steering wheel turns right," is that the wheel turning right, by itself, without driver input?

What's causing the wheel to turn? When the back end starts to lose grip and comes around, the rotation of the back end will cause the steering wheel to turn.

Here's where people fight the car.

BMWs have a good amount of caster so the front wheels will track straight. So the key is to keep the front wheels pointed down track. Let the car do the work and keep the wheels in the intended direction. You may need to make a correction of the front wheels depending on if you need to change the orientation of the front wheels.

Use the throttle to control the car. This is where the whole "smoothness" thing comes into play.

[Kong Sheng Han]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

What's causing the wheel to turn? When the back end starts to lose grip and comes around, the rotation of the back end will cause the steering wheel to turn.

Here's where people fight the car.

BMWs have a good amount of caster so the front wheels will track straight. So the key is to keep the front wheels pointed down track. Let the car do the work and keep the wheels in the intended direction. You may need to make a correction of the front wheels depending on if you need to change the orientation of the front wheels.

Use the throttle to control the car. This is where the whole "smoothness" thing comes into play.

Makes a lot of sense now. Obviously physics isn't my strongest subject. I'm gonna try to practice in a controlled environment before my DE.

I appreciate your help.

[imolam3]

See if you can attend one of the skid control class. Driveway Austin has one. Or find an empty parking lot on a rainy day and have at it.

[dparm]

Having never driven that track, is it a case of target fixation? Are people just entering that corner and not looking at the correct spot ahead?

When I attended Bondurant earlier this year, they drilled this into our head constantly.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by dparm

Having never driven that track, is it a case of target fixation? Are people just entering that corner and not looking at the correct spot ahead?

When I attended Bondurant earlier this year, they drilled this into our head constantly.

Not in this case. This turn will shoot you the other way like a slingshot into the wall.