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      07-03-2019, 06:15 PM   #1
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General Cooling Question

Apologies in advance if these are remedial questions with equally remedial answers.

Three years ago I had methanol injection installed with my AA supercharger. Last year I began tracking pretty regularly, and as I've progressed on the track I have noticed my oil temps have increased. Last year on PS4's my temps would peg right at 255, and this year on PSC2's my temps appear to be a few ticks above 255. Everything else is unchanged, so more grip has led to more heat. Engine works harder. I get that part.

This past weekend was a scorcher (clear skies, humid, and low-to mid 90's), but I was able to run five 30 minute sessions at Summit Point (main course). Lots and lots of full throttle. Went through almost 1.75 tanks of gas and two gallons of methanol. Car pulled strong the entire day.

Questions as follows:

- Is methanol injection lowering engine oil temps? If so, is this via boosted octane? preventing of detonation? Something else?
- Is methanol injection having an impact on coolant temps? If so, is this simply a byproduct of lower oil temps?
- At what oil temp will the car enter limp mode?
- Will the car enter limp mode from overheated coolant?
- Does humidity have any impact on the above?

Thanks in advance for your knowledge!

SJ
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      07-03-2019, 06:20 PM   #2
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Yes methanol is lowering engine temps. Not because of the octane boost, but because when it evaporates is 'sucks up' lots of heat. Not sure if this effect can actually be noticed in a car, but that's that. Officially I believe the methanol is used to prevent detonation, aka as supplemental fuel

Coolant and oil temps go hand in hand

When the needle goes past the 3/4 ball the car starts pulling timing, usually it won't go into limp until it hits the 4/4 area

Humidity makes everything worse


If you keep getting faster you will probably need the full do88 kit plus the oil diverter valve mod which is an epic PITA to install. And then when you get really fast you'll have to remove the supercharger unless you plan on doing 1 hot lap followed by a few cool down laps
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      07-03-2019, 07:29 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Yes methanol is lowering engine temps. Not because of the octane boost, but because when it evaporates is 'sucks up' lots of heat. Not sure if this effect can actually be noticed in a car, but that's that. Officially I believe the methanol is used to prevent detonation, aka as supplemental fuel

Coolant and oil temps go hand in hand

When the needle goes past the 3/4 ball the car starts pulling timing, usually it won't go into limp until it hits the 4/4 area

Humidity makes everything worse


If you keep getting faster you will probably need the full do88 kit plus the oil diverter valve mod which is an epic PITA to install. And then when you get really fast you'll have to remove the supercharger unless you plan on doing 1 hot lap followed by a few cool down laps
That's a buzz kill (removing the SC)!

I did the diverter valve install earlier this year, and yes it was a massive PITA! There were a few points where I began to question my sanity. Thankfully I have a patient wife.

Regarding timing. Would the decrease in HP be noticeable?
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      07-03-2019, 07:52 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
That's a buzz kill (removing the SC)!

I did the diverter valve install earlier this year, and yes it was a massive PITA! There were a few points where I began to question my sanity. Thankfully I have a patient wife.

Regarding timing. Would the decrease in HP be noticeable?
Believe me you will know when the car is limiting timing, soon after you will go into limp mode

It all depends on how much you track and what 'fast' means for you. It may be that the supercharger works just fine for what you want to achieve and for sure it is TONS of fun to drive
Lots of people feel they are 'fast' but aren't really, so what works with person A does not necessarily work for person B.

Dogbone dogbone on this forum is among the fastest here and he runs a supercharged car, albeit in time-attack style events, not HDPEs. He can do 2-3 laps before the car goes into limp mode but note that his 'fast' is F A S T, so it's possible someone else in his car would never get to limp mode.
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      07-03-2019, 08:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Believe me you will know when the car is limiting timing, soon after you will go into limp mode

It all depends on how much you track and what 'fast' means for you. It may be that the supercharger works just fine for what you want to achieve and for sure it is TONS of fun to drive
Lots of people feel they are 'fast' but aren't really, so what works with person A does not necessarily work for person B.

Dogbone dogbone on this forum is among the fastest here and he runs a supercharged car, albeit in time-attack style events, not HDPEs. He can do 2-3 laps before the car goes into limp mode but note that his 'fast' is F A S T, so it's possible someone else in his car would never get to limp mode.
Ha!

25 yr old me would think I was blazing fast! Thankfully wisdom comes with age, and nearly 54 year old me knows that while I'm faster than a year ago, I by no means am "fast."

Good to know what to expect. My new target goal will be achieving limp mode during a HPDE event.

Thanks again for the knowledge sharing!
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      07-04-2019, 12:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Believe me you will know when the car is limiting timing, soon after you will go into limp mode

It all depends on how much you track and what 'fast' means for you. It may be that the supercharger works just fine for what you want to achieve and for sure it is TONS of fun to drive
Lots of people feel they are 'fast' but aren't really, so what works with person A does not necessarily work for person B.

Dogbone dogbone on this forum is among the fastest here and he runs a supercharged car, albeit in time-attack style events, not HDPEs. He can do 2-3 laps before the car goes into limp mode but note that his 'fast' is F A S T, so it's possible someone else in his car would never get to limp mode.
(I go to HPDEs as well. In fact, more events are HPDE for fun than time attack. My car is not an ideal time attack car. I just do them because the competition is fun and I like the atmosphere.)

When SYT_Shadow is saying I do 2-3 laps, he's talking about maximum 10/10ths pace laps---with full aero, Pirelli slicks, BBK, suspension, etc. In fairness to the engine, after those kinds of laps, the tires need a break too. Just by backing off a few seconds on the pace, the car can run for long periods.

Let's look at the ultimate situation as a conversational comparison----Formula1. In qualifying, these guys do exactly ONE hot lap and then back off. They're backing off because of the tires. They can't take it. And if you compare the lap times from qualifying to the race lap times, the race laps are MANY seconds slower. Sometimes 5-7 seconds slower. How often do you hear the words "tire management" in a Formula1 race? All the time. Well, in fairness to my car, if I slowed down 6 seconds from my maximum pace, my car could easily run for as long as I want. One day at Buttonwillow, it was a Speed District event where they had open track from 3:30-5PM. I had a set of Michelin hard compound slicks. The hard compound tires are not very fast, but they can run forever. My fastest lap time ever at Buttonwillow is a 1:47. These Michelin tires were almost burned up, so I decided to just hammer on them and go have fun. I drove 30 straight minutes of 1:51-1:52 laps. Ran out of gas. Got gas. Jumped right back out there and ran another 10-15 minutes. Got bored. Brought it in. The engine was fine. So, the 2-3 laps that SYT_Shadow is talking about are basically my "qualifying"-style laps.

Since you're running meth, an oil diverter and you're on street tires, I would not overly worry about overheating right now. And I would definitely not be thinking about removing the supercharger. You've made two large commitments already to combatting the heat. And street tires prevent you from really pounding on that supercharger. Don't get me wrong, you can still overheat the car. All you have to do is throw the car in 2nd gear and do the whole track at 8000rpms. Instant overheat.

For now, go out, drive your butt off, build speed and skill, and have fun. Sounds like the car should be fun as hell to drive!
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      07-05-2019, 06:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
(I go to HPDEs as well. In fact, more events are HPDE for fun than time attack. My car is not an ideal time attack car. I just do them because the competition is fun and I like the atmosphere.)

When SYT_Shadow is saying I do 2-3 laps, he's talking about maximum 10/10ths pace laps---with full aero, Pirelli slicks, BBK, suspension, etc. In fairness to the engine, after those kinds of laps, the tires need a break too. Just by backing off a few seconds on the pace, the car can run for long periods.

Let's look at the ultimate situation as a conversational comparison----Formula1. In qualifying, these guys do exactly ONE hot lap and then back off. They're backing off because of the tires. They can't take it. And if you compare the lap times from qualifying to the race lap times, the race laps are MANY seconds slower. Sometimes 5-7 seconds slower. How often do you hear the words "tire management" in a Formula1 race? All the time. Well, in fairness to my car, if I slowed down 6 seconds from my maximum pace, my car could easily run for as long as I want. One day at Buttonwillow, it was a Speed District event where they had open track from 3:30-5PM. I had a set of Michelin hard compound slicks. The hard compound tires are not very fast, but they can run forever. My fastest lap time ever at Buttonwillow is a 1:47. These Michelin tires were almost burned up, so I decided to just hammer on them and go have fun. I drove 30 straight minutes of 1:51-1:52 laps. Ran out of gas. Got gas. Jumped right back out there and ran another 10-15 minutes. Got bored. Brought it in. The engine was fine. So, the 2-3 laps that SYT_Shadow is talking about are basically my "qualifying"-style laps.

Since you're running meth, an oil diverter and you're on street tires, I would not overly worry about overheating right now. And I would definitely not be thinking about removing the supercharger. You've made two large commitments already to combatting the heat. And street tires prevent you from really pounding on that supercharger. Don't get me wrong, you can still overheat the car. All you have to do is throw the car in 2nd gear and do the whole track at 8000rpms. Instant overheat.

For now, go out, drive your butt off, build speed and skill, and have fun. Sounds like the car should be fun as hell to drive!
Thank you DogBone! I really appreciate how helpful you all have been with my questions! I've got VIR next month so really looking forward to that. Had a great time last year so hoping for a repeat!
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      07-05-2019, 07:09 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
(I go to HPDEs as well. In fact, more events are HPDE for fun than time attack. My car is not an ideal time attack car. I just do them because the competition is fun and I like the atmosphere.)

When SYT_Shadow is saying I do 2-3 laps, he's talking about maximum 10/10ths pace laps---with full aero, Pirelli slicks, BBK, suspension, etc. In fairness to the engine, after those kinds of laps, the tires need a break too. Just by backing off a few seconds on the pace, the car can run for long periods.

Let's look at the ultimate situation as a conversational comparison----Formula1. In qualifying, these guys do exactly ONE hot lap and then back off. They're backing off because of the tires. They can't take it. And if you compare the lap times from qualifying to the race lap times, the race laps are MANY seconds slower. Sometimes 5-7 seconds slower. How often do you hear the words "tire management" in a Formula1 race? All the time. Well, in fairness to my car, if I slowed down 6 seconds from my maximum pace, my car could easily run for as long as I want. One day at Buttonwillow, it was a Speed District event where they had open track from 3:30-5PM. I had a set of Michelin hard compound slicks. The hard compound tires are not very fast, but they can run forever. My fastest lap time ever at Buttonwillow is a 1:47. These Michelin tires were almost burned up, so I decided to just hammer on them and go have fun. I drove 30 straight minutes of 1:51-1:52 laps. Ran out of gas. Got gas. Jumped right back out there and ran another 10-15 minutes. Got bored. Brought it in. The engine was fine. So, the 2-3 laps that SYT_Shadow is talking about are basically my "qualifying"-style laps.

Since you're running meth, an oil diverter and you're on street tires, I would not overly worry about overheating right now. And I would definitely not be thinking about removing the supercharger. You've made two large commitments already to combatting the heat. And street tires prevent you from really pounding on that supercharger. Don't get me wrong, you can still overheat the car. All you have to do is throw the car in 2nd gear and do the whole track at 8000rpms. Instant overheat.

For now, go out, drive your butt off, build speed and skill, and have fun. Sounds like the car should be fun as hell to drive!
Thank you DogBone! I really appreciate how helpful you all have been with my questions! I've got VIR next month so really looking forward to that. Had a great time last year so hoping for a repeat!
I'll be at VIR next month with NASA. Who are you going with? I am in a grey E46M3.
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      07-05-2019, 12:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
I'll be at VIR next month with NASA. Who are you going with? I am in a grey E46M3.
Very nice looking car!

I'll be there with TrackDaze on Aug 12-13th.

Gentleman who has been helping me learn the ins & outs of tracking instructs with several organizations (incl. NASA) and he speaks highly of that group. I think I'll give them a try in the future.
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      07-05-2019, 12:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
l
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
I'll be at VIR next month with NASA. Who are you going with? I am in a grey E46M3.
Very nice looking car!

I'll be there with TrackDaze on Aug 12-13th.

Gentleman who has been helping me learn the ins & outs of tracking instructs with several organizations (incl. NASA) and he speaks highly of that group. I think I'll give them a try in the future.
Track Daze is good group. I ran with them a couple of years ago.
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      07-08-2019, 02:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
l

Very nice looking car!

I'll be there with TrackDaze on Aug 12-13th.

Gentleman who has been helping me learn the ins & outs of tracking instructs with several organizations (incl. NASA) and he speaks highly of that group. I think I'll give them a try in the future.
Sweet, I am going to try to make the Aug 12-13th TrackDaze event as well. My KW Clubsports came in today!!!

White e90, Hope to see you there.

Chris

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      07-09-2019, 07:43 PM   #12
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Sweet, I am going to try to make the Aug 12-13th TrackDaze event as well. My KW Clubsports came in today!!!

White e90, Hope to see you there.

Chris
Fantastic! I'll look for you.


Gary
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      08-09-2019, 10:04 AM   #13
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Not going to make the VIR event on the 12th & 13th, BUT I am registered for Summit Point on Oct. 5th & 6th.

I just didn't have time to get my KW's all sorted out. Have fun though!
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      08-12-2019, 02:48 PM   #14
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Not going to make the VIR event on the 12th & 13th, BUT I am registered for Summit Point on Oct. 5th & 6th.

I just didn't have time to get my KW's all sorted out. Have fun though!
I'm here and NOT having fun. Car is a mess. No power, running rough, just getting swamped by everyone. Not happy.
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      08-16-2019, 02:44 PM   #15
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One thing I have noticed is most people will start buying different coolers without looking at the biggest constraint first. The v8 produces an enormous amount of heat and more so when it is tuned to deliver more power. It is very tightly packaged and the bonnet is sealed. There is nowhere for the air flowing through the radiator to go.

Removing the rubber boot from the right hand vent lets a lot of heat out but the best thing to do is to run a vented bonnet where the vents are so designed to literally suck the hot air out from the engine bay which also allows the cold air to flow faster through the radiator and the two other coolers in front of it.
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      08-16-2019, 03:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant Man View Post
One thing I have noticed is most people will start buying different coolers without looking at the biggest constraint first. The v8 produces an enormous amount of heat and more so when it is tuned to deliver more power. It is very tightly packaged and the bonnet is sealed. There is nowhere for the air flowing through the radiator to go.

Removing the rubber boot from the right hand vent lets a lot of heat out but the best thing to do is to run a vented bonnet where the vents are so designed to literally suck the hot air out from the engine bay which also allows the cold air to flow faster through the radiator and the two other coolers in front of it.
Trackspec makes one of the common vent setups like you are referring to. Doesn't sound like they make much of an impact on their own but are helpful as part of an overall upgraded system. We just put them on as part of the current build process including adding the epic oil diverter valve and trying out a different fan setup. These are in addition to the full do88 big pack that is already on the car - that while it does an excellent job temps can still get higher than where we would like them on extended runs when it is hot outside.



If that doesn't have the desired effect then we are playing around with the idea of trying to direct the air out DTM style

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      08-18-2019, 08:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant Man View Post
One thing I have noticed is most people will start buying different coolers without looking at the biggest constraint first. The v8 produces an enormous amount of heat and more so when it is tuned to deliver more power. It is very tightly packaged and the bonnet is sealed. There is nowhere for the air flowing through the radiator to go.
This. You need more cooling surface exposed to more fresh air. I think people are wasting money on upgraded coolers. You need more surface area...meaning more coolers.

I run into this in the E46 M3 community. People install an aftermarket cooler replacing an old, beat up OEM cooler...of course it works better! I lowered my temps by installing a 2nd cooler in series.
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      08-18-2019, 03:06 PM   #18
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Have trackspec hood vents. What else can I do without going very impractical?
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      08-18-2019, 04:13 PM   #19
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Have trackspec hood vents. What else can I do without going very impractical?
Run a higher water to coolant ratio
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      08-18-2019, 06:39 PM   #20
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2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpewpew View Post
Have trackspec hood vents. What else can I do without going very impractical?
That's the hard part about the E9X M3...limited space.

Deleting the AC would help a lot. The condenser blocks air flow.
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2015 F34 328iX GT Glacier Silver
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue
2004 E46 M3 Imola Red
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      08-19-2019, 07:46 AM   #21
Grillpt
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Drives: E92 M3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exclusivs View Post
Run a higher water to coolant ratio
This.

Water Wetter or Lucas Super Coolant and predominantly water makes a big difference.

I usually just drain the radiator and fill it back up with this. I don't purge the whole system.
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      08-21-2019, 08:21 AM   #22
decimation1
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Drives: 08 e92 MT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
I'm here and NOT having fun. Car is a mess. No power, running rough, just getting swamped by everyone. Not happy.
Sorry to hear that!! Did you get it sorted out?
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