BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
EXXEL Distributions
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-26-2019, 01:17 PM   #1
ichy
Private
19
Rep
77
Posts

Drives: e90 m3
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: nyc

iTrader: (0)

Just purchased KW Clubsport 2-way and would like to get some input on what alignment specs (camber and toe) I should be running. I'm doing about 8-10 track days this year but would like something little conservative since I do take the car out sometimes on a nice evening. The car is also driven to the track on re71rs 275/35/18 on a 18x10 et25 apex sm10.

Appreciate all the feedback!
Appreciate 0
      06-26-2019, 08:45 PM   #2
elim11
Major
357
Rep
1,290
Posts

Drives: e90m3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: irvine/sf

iTrader: (13)

R:-3.3 camber 0 toe front
F : -2.4 camber 1/8" toe in
Spec by west end alignment. Car is easily controllable in the corners . Would recommend
__________________
Appreciate 1
ichy18.50

      06-26-2019, 10:00 PM   #3
ichy
Private
19
Rep
77
Posts

Drives: e90 m3
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: nyc

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elim11 View Post
R:-3.3 camber 0 toe front
F : -2.4 camber 1/8" toe in
Spec by west end alignment. Car is easily controllable in the corners . Would recommend
Is that a little too aggressive if I drive to the track?
Appreciate 0
      06-27-2019, 08:59 AM   #4
dparm
World's greatest HPDE driver
dparm's Avatar
United_States
2170
Rep
7,068
Posts

Drives: C7 Corvette Grand Sport
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ichy View Post
Is that a little too aggressive if I drive to the track?

I don't think so unless you're doing 1000 miles each way. Toe is what will eat the tires, not camber.
__________________
Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport
Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP
Appreciate 0
      06-27-2019, 09:54 AM   #5
slicer
Major General
slicer's Avatar
United_States
1400
Rep
5,876
Posts

Drives: '13 E92 M3 - '17 F31 330i
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Santa Barbara, CA - Instagram - @slicer_m

iTrader: (36)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elim11 View Post
R:-3.3 camber 0 toe front
F : -2.4 camber 1/8" toe in
Spec by west end alignment. Car is easily controllable in the corners . Would recommend
I think you have the R and F reversed.

F -3.3
R -2.4

OP - I would recommend swapping a shorter main spring in the front for better wheel clearance. Eibach 140mm length, 60mm diameter in the spring rate that came with your version of CS (it's stamped on your KW spring). If not you will need a front spacer. Plus you can fit wider 10.5" wheels in the future. Doing the swap now will save you the labor of pulling the suspension out to do it later.
__________________
'13 AW E92 M3 - Ohlins TTX, SPL Susp Arms, AP Racing BBK (Essex), Akrapovic GT4, CSF Cooling, VPhreaks Bat, OE M3 GTS - Lip/RSD/Cage, M235ir Wing, Varis Diffuser, Karbonius Airbox, MFactory DS, M24 Door Cards, KMP Wheel, Cobra Seats w/BK Mounts, BBS E88
'17 MR 330i F31 M-Sport Touring - For Lease Assumption - Forged BBS RE - For Sale
INSTAGRAM - @Slicer_M
Appreciate 0
      06-27-2019, 09:59 AM   #6
elim11
Major
357
Rep
1,290
Posts

Drives: e90m3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: irvine/sf

iTrader: (13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by elim11 View Post
R:-3.3 camber 0 toe front
F : -2.4 camber 1/8" toe in
Spec by west end alignment. Car is easily controllable in the corners . Would recommend
I think you have the R and F reversed.

F -3.3
R -2.4
Yes thanks for catching that.

OP not aggressive if you drive to the track only. I also drive probably 3000 miles on the street with not much issues thus far. Just rotate and potentially flip tire when needed.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-27-2019, 07:45 PM   #7
ichy
Private
19
Rep
77
Posts

Drives: e90 m3
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: nyc

iTrader: (0)

Thanks for the input. Think I'm gonna go with -3 front with 0 toe and -2 rear with 1/16 toe in
Appreciate 0
      06-28-2019, 08:58 AM   #8
tsk94
Private First Class
tsk94's Avatar
Canada
35
Rep
160
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Calgary

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elim11 View Post
F:-3.3 camber 0 toe front
R: -2.4 camber 1/8" toe in
Spec by west end alignment. Car is easily controllable in the corners . Would recommend
This is almost exactly what I'm running on our track car: -3.3* w/ 0 toe in the front, and -2.5* with 1/8" toe in in the rear.

Also don't overlook the importance of ride heights. 1/4" negative rake is a good starting point.
Appreciate 0
      06-28-2019, 11:06 PM   #9
P1zzaboy
Enlisted Member
6
Rep
46
Posts

Drives: E93 M3 '08
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Quebec, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk94 View Post
This is almost exactly what I'm running on our track car: -3.3* w/ 0 toe in the front, and -2.5* with 1/8" toe in in the rear.

Also don't overlook the importance of ride heights. 1/4" negative rake is a good starting point.
What is your fender to ground height?
Appreciate 0
      06-29-2019, 10:34 AM   #10
tsk94
Private First Class
tsk94's Avatar
Canada
35
Rep
160
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Calgary

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by P1zzaboy View Post
What is your fender to ground height?
So, the 1/4" rake is measured from the difference between the front and rear jack point. This is Bimmerworlds suggested method for measuring rake on the E9X chassis.

With that being said the front and rear ground to fender measurements for our car are as follows:
Front: 635mm
Rear: 599mm

Ground to fender are somewhat misleading, as these will change depending on the diameter of tire you are running. The above numbers are with the car running 275/35R18 all around. If for example you were running 275/40R18, these ride height numbers would be higher, but rake would still remain the same. Thus, centre of wheel to fender is a better method as it ignores differences in overall tire diameter.

Hope that helps.

Last edited by tsk94; 06-29-2019 at 12:40 PM.. Reason: Mixed up front and rear numbers..
Appreciate 0
      06-29-2019, 11:28 PM   #11
ichy
Private
19
Rep
77
Posts

Drives: e90 m3
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: nyc

iTrader: (0)

So I was only able to get a maximum front camber of -2.3 from the plates on the kw club sports 2way. Anyone that have these and was able to get more out of it?
Appreciate 0
      06-30-2019, 12:29 AM   #12
fsmtnbiker
Private
33
Rep
50
Posts

Drives: E92 M3, E36 M3, TM3
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ichy View Post
So I was only able to get a maximum front camber of -2.3 from the plates on the kw club sports 2way. Anyone that have these and was able to get more out of it?
Yes, you should easily be able to get -3 or more with those plates. You have to lower the mounts and slide the adjuster further in under the strut top.
Appreciate 1
ichy18.50

      07-01-2019, 03:35 PM   #13
P1zzaboy
Enlisted Member
6
Rep
46
Posts

Drives: E93 M3 '08
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Quebec, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk94 View Post
So, the 1/4" rake is measured from the difference between the front and rear jack point. This is Bimmerworlds suggested method for measuring rake on the E9X chassis.

With that being said the front and rear ground to fender measurements for our car are as follows:
Front: 635mm
Rear: 599mm

Ground to fender are somewhat misleading, as these will change depending on the diameter of tire you are running. The above numbers are with the car running 275/35R18 all around. If for example you were running 275/40R18, these ride height numbers would be higher, but rake would still remain the same. Thus, centre of wheel to fender is a better method as it ignores differences in overall tire diameter.

Hope that helps.
Yes I understand FTG is relative to tire size. I run the same size as you, but have 635mm F and 635mm R

That rear ride height of 599mm must tuck the rear tires in the arches a lot? I thought my car was low
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2019, 08:57 PM   #14
tsk94
Private First Class
tsk94's Avatar
Canada
35
Rep
160
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Calgary

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by P1zzaboy View Post
Yes I understand FTG is relative to tire size. I run the same size as you, but have 635mm F and 635mm R

That rear ride height of 599mm must tuck the rear tires in the arches a lot? I thought my car was low
It's tucked up a bit for sure, but I wouldn't say it's that low. Some of the E92 GT4 factory race cars are even lower than this by ~10-15mm. At first the rear ride height was setup quite a bit higher, but resulted in a lot of rear end instability/oversteer at turn in and mid corner. Lowering the rear to where it is now has massively improved this.

My main point was not to over look the importance of proper ride height settings for track use, they are just as important as the rest of the alignment.
Appreciate 1
gmx62.00

      08-14-2019, 01:51 AM   #15
MPower7
Second Lieutenant
MPower7's Avatar
73
Rep
298
Posts

Drives: 11' e92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SF

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fsmtnbiker View Post
Yes, you should easily be able to get -3 or more with those plates. You have to lower the mounts and slide the adjuster further in under the strut top.
Same issue here. Undue the 3 bolts on the top mount? Shouldn't it be able to move over by pushing it?
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2019, 08:39 AM   #16
tsk94
Private First Class
tsk94's Avatar
Canada
35
Rep
160
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Calgary

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower7 View Post
Same issue here. Undue the 3 bolts on the top mount? Shouldn't it be able to move over by pushing it?
Yes. You might need to unweight the wheel to make it easier to push over though.
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2019, 10:57 AM   #17
slicer
Major General
slicer's Avatar
United_States
1400
Rep
5,876
Posts

Drives: '13 E92 M3 - '17 F31 330i
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Santa Barbara, CA - Instagram - @slicer_m

iTrader: (36)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower7 View Post
Same issue here. Undue the 3 bolts on the top mount? Shouldn't it be able to move over by pushing it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk94 View Post
Yes. You might need to unweight the wheel to make it easier to push over though.
It's best to unweight both front wheels so that the sway bar is not loaded. Remove both front wheels as well.
__________________
'13 AW E92 M3 - Ohlins TTX, SPL Susp Arms, AP Racing BBK (Essex), Akrapovic GT4, CSF Cooling, VPhreaks Bat, OE M3 GTS - Lip/RSD/Cage, M235ir Wing, Varis Diffuser, Karbonius Airbox, MFactory DS, M24 Door Cards, KMP Wheel, Cobra Seats w/BK Mounts, BBS E88
'17 MR 330i F31 M-Sport Touring - For Lease Assumption - Forged BBS RE - For Sale
INSTAGRAM - @Slicer_M
Appreciate 1
tsk9434.50

      09-01-2019, 03:05 PM   #18
kayha12
Private First Class
kayha12's Avatar
33
Rep
102
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Frederick, MD

iTrader: (1)

Also interested to see you guys are able to achieve -3 or more camber, my plates are maxed out on one side and the other has maybe a hairs worth, but am only at -2.7
__________________
NASA Mid Atlantic - TT3 #97
'12 E92 M3 ZCP
Sponsored by Andrewtech Automotive
Appreciate 0
      09-01-2019, 04:52 PM   #19
VictorH
Major
285
Rep
1,176
Posts

Drives: '09 M3
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kayha12 View Post
Also interested to see you guys are able to achieve -3 or more camber, my plates are maxed out on one side and the other has maybe a hairs worth, but am only at -2.7
Depends what plates you are running. When I ran Ground Control street plates, my max was just about what you are seeing. I'm running Vorschlag now with aftermarket suspension and can get a bit over 4 degrees negative on both sides (which is too much for street tires). I run -3.5 degrees on track with street tires.
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2019, 05:34 PM   #20
kayha12
Private First Class
kayha12's Avatar
33
Rep
102
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Frederick, MD

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorH View Post
Depends what plates you are running. When I ran Ground Control street plates, my max was just about what you are seeing. I'm running Vorschlag now with aftermarket suspension and can get a bit over 4 degrees negative on both sides (which is too much for street tires). I run -3.5 degrees on track with street tires.
Right, I was looking at aftermarket camber plates to get more camber - was hoping the kw clubsport camber plates could pull more
__________________
NASA Mid Atlantic - TT3 #97
'12 E92 M3 ZCP
Sponsored by Andrewtech Automotive
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2019, 11:28 PM   #21
Bartledoo
Just Some F****** Guy
Bartledoo's Avatar
United_States
648
Rep
1,100
Posts

Drives: 2011 E90 M3 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Seattle, WA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kayha12 View Post
Right, I was looking at aftermarket camber plates to get more camber - was hoping the kw clubsport camber plates could pull more
I'm at -2.8 front with quite a bit more adjustment left on kw clubsports. What is your ride height like up front?
__________________
E90M 6MT Slicktop Single Humper
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:41 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST