RPi Ram Intake Scoops with Dyno. [14 whp]

[SlammedR8]

Sticky & Tightie

Believe me, I love my RPi Air Scoops. and Im not hating 1 bit...its a great mod and i feel the power on the hwy.
You both replied to the guys post on the last page...however neither of you mentioned the fact that 1-2 hp gains are useless/pointless. Spending $129 for 1-2 hp is just plain dumb...you'll never notice or feel it!
Bottom line question ....Do you agree that you will not feel 1-2 hp? Thats all I want you guys to answer (and RPiPower can answer as well...)

Thanks guys...and again Im not hating...Im just being realistic.

[ace996]

Sticky,
I didn't originally address you, but since you've taken it upon yourself to be RPI's fanboy/spokesman (unpaid?) and drawn your sword to me, then I will direct this your way.

This is going to be fun...I'll first say thank you for allowing me the opportunity to bring to light some major flaws you may have with your "scoop-faith"...
(my replies will be in red in your quoted post below)...

Originally Posted by Sticky

Ugh, where to begin with this whole mess.

First, I'll start with Eloy knows what the hell he is talking about.-usually someone will put supporting diologue after a statement like that.

Second, do you have a dyno where you work - no, and I bet you don't either.? Do you work with these scoops all day?-Thankfully, no...and I bet you don't either. Do you design these scoops?-Wonderful string of questions...this is fun... NO, and I bet you don't either. Do you test them back to back on the dyno?-No. You really don't think additional oil cooling is necessary?-For the majority of people who don't track their cars...NO, at least that's what's been the experiences from those who've taken the car on the track. Do you think you are going to overheat the car on the street? Explain to me, why is the RPI M5/M6 oil cooler is a popular upgrade for consistency for the S85?- Please don't bring in the M5/M6 examples...we are discussing the M3, of which not one person, at least from what I've seen, has hit over 260degs of oil temp - that includes one of us who ran Thunderhill in 105degrees.


Have you ever been to RPI?- Have you seen the fan they use on the dyno? Do you know what steps Eloy takes in dynoing the cars and doing repeat pulls? I would bet most facilities DON'T have 70 mph fans, RPI does. Did you bother looking into this before making your, basically ignorant, claim of RPI needing to upgrade their fan?
-In order to properly test a product that works with air-pressure, caused by actual airflow at the speed at which the vehicle is moving, the "dyno-fan" is a joke. It's like testing aerodynamics in front of a dyno... I'm sure you can understand that absurdity.
And upgrading the fan was sarcasm in response to the car needing an upgraded oil-cooler...because of it's...what word did they use, I forget...but due to the unacceptable cooling sysem not being able to handle their torturous 2-3 dyno pulls.
What was the skyrocketing temps of the oil?... 300?320?

Naturally aspirated motors do suffer from heat soak you knowyep, I know.. If you haven't been able to get your oil temps to rise you obviously have not driven the car hard enough on the track. Maybe the weather is way cooler in New York, but our here in California an upgraded oil cooler is way up there on my list of upgrades for the car.-Yes, please share with us the stratospheric temperatures you've encountered whilst on track? And have the temps risen since you've chosen to block a portion of your radiator with these scoops? And what were your coolant temps? Perhaps a $10 bottle of WaterWetter and a 25/75 ratio of coolant/water will help your perceived problem. Or you could just spend a $1000 or so on an upgraded oil-cooler.

If you bothered to do ANY research on your own instead of just running your mouth, you would see all the data you requested is available on M5board regarding the scoops.-now here's where we have the problem...and perhaps you haven't read my posts clearly enough to understand my point.
THE M5/M6 AIRBOX IS CLOSED, MEANING A SCOOP SHOULD HELP DIRECT MORE INTAKE PRESSURE INTO THE AIRBOX, BECAUSE THERE ISNT A MAJOR LEAK OUT THE BOX. OUR AIRBOX IS NOT CLOSED, IT HAS A GAPING HOLE OUT THE HOOD.
PLEASE STOP COMPARING THE M5/M6 INDUCTION SYSTEMS TO OUR M3 SYSTEMS.
Hopefully, you can understand that. Read it a few more times if it doesn't click right away.

If you are skeptical and whatnot, don't buy them. You are months behind on this topic, if not years. Come back when you have done some research on the topic. If this product did not work, why in the hell do the M5/M6 and 335 guys show gains with a FAN on a dyno pull, after pull - please go up a few lines and re-read the capitalized print. Again, you compare our airboxes to those of other vehicles...perhaps you should do some research to see just why our airbox is different, perhaps then your stalwart stubborn stand of why this must also apply to our M3s may soften.
Really easy explanation...
Why doesn't water stay in a bucket with a hole in the bottom?
Or air stay in a balloon with hole?
Our airbox has a gaping hole, that's why the M5/M6's success with the scoops does not apply to the M3.. Why the hell does everyone feel a difference at highway speeds? -The same reason why all the Honda guys "feel" something when they change their exhausts, even though they lose power and torque when dyno'd or take it to the strip. YOU WANT TO BELIEVE...
Hey, I'm not saying they do absolutely nothing, perhaps throttle response is improved..who knows, I'm just sceptical of any gain over a few RWHP...not gonna happen with a gaping leak out the top of the hood.Why in the hell has everyone started ripping off RPI's design?-Well...and here's where you may get a little insulted...it's because of you. Because people who don't know better, who want to believe a difference is for real, have a hard time not spending their money. It's because you'll buy it and shout from the rooftops just how good it is, without any real testing, on forums like these and others will want to do it, too. So they can sell them and make money...that's why. And you know who buys this "stuff"...you.


Don't spread your nonsense around, thanks. - Truth is tough to swallow, huh? No worries, I'll type slow. Let me know if you have any more questions you'd like me to directly answer.

You want to prove me wrong?...prove that the scoops aren't just some blingy product on which you've wasted your money? Then log some runs with the scoops on the road, the only place where you'd see the actual application of it's use.
Put a pressure sensor in the box, a GPS/Performance logger in the car, log many pulls with and without the scoops and then come back and you'd have a leg to stand on... Do something to address the hole in the hood, tape over it and then do the logs over...I bet the scoops actually do something, like on the M5/M6s, when there isn't a leak out the airbox. Then come back and let us know how it worked out.

Until then, you're helping to sell a product that is unproven and over-hyped..."turbonator"-esqe...and that's poor form.

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by ace996

this is going to be fun...I'll first say thank you for allowing me the opportunity to bring to light some major flaws you may have with your "scoop-faith"...
(my replies will be in red in your quoted post below)...



You want to prove me wrong?...prove that the scoops aren't just some blingy product on which you've wasted your money? Then log some runs with the scoops on the road, the only place where you'd see the actual application of it's use.
Put a pressure sensor in the box, a GPS/Performance logger in the car, log many pulls with and without the scoops and then come back and you'd have a leg to stand on... Do something to address the hole in the hood, tape over it and then do the logs over...I bet the scoops actually do something, like on the M5/M6s, when there isn't a leak out the airbox. Then come back and let us know how it worked out.

Until then, you're helping to sell a product that is unproven and over-hyped..."turbonator"-esqe...and that's poor form.

+1 on the real world trial not a dyno. Like I've said before selling products has less to do with what the product does as it has to do with a market demand. If there is demand for that product somebody is certainly going to fill that demand if a profit can be made. I'm not saying these scoops do or do not work, although I am highly skeptical these plastic pieces that for some reason aren't included from the factory by BMW really produce that much HP, and have no negative effects. But real world tests are what we need, dyno numbers don't really mean anything. I would love to see a car with scoops race a car without scoops.

[lugnut]

+1 to Ace's comments. I would love to see all the possible combinations of scoops/no scoops, plugged/not plugged posted somewhere.

Just my 2 cents, but I find it hard to believe that plugging the vent in the hood wouldn't have some negative effect on the vehicle. BMW spent millions designing and testing this car, and granted they have other variables to deal with besides pure performance, but if that holds, than wouldn't the ALMS M3 have this vent plugged, or more likely removed all together. From the pics I looked at it is very tough to see an overhead shot of the hood, but it looks like there is still something on the driver's side of the hood.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...3DGXN%26sa%3DN

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by ace996

Sticky,
I didn't originally address you, but since you've taken it upon yourself to be RPI's fanboy/spokesman (unpaid?) and drawn your sword to me, then I will direct this your way.

This is going to be fun...I'll first say thank you for allowing me the opportunity to bring to light some major flaws you may have with your "scoop-faith"...
(my replies will be in red in your quoted post below)...



You want to prove me wrong?...prove that the scoops aren't just some blingy product on which you've wasted your money? Then log some runs with the scoops on the road, the only place where you'd see the actual application of it's use.
Put a pressure sensor in the box, a GPS/Performance logger in the car, log many pulls with and without the scoops and then come back and you'd have a leg to stand on... Do something to address the hole in the hood, tape over it and then do the logs over...I bet the scoops actually do something, like on the M5/M6s, when there isn't a leak out the airbox. Then come back and let us know how it worked out.

Until then, you're helping to sell a product that is unproven and over-hyped..."turbonator"-esqe...and that's poor form.

Read this, come back when you know what you are talking about:

http://m5board.com/vbulletin/m5-e60-...available.html

Here is ASR's dyno of the M3 scoops, since RPI's can't be trusted:

http://m5board.com/vbulletin/e90-m3-...no-e92-m3.html

The product is proven, has been proven, you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by J08M3

+1 on the real world trial not a dyno. Like I've said before selling products has less to do with what the product does as it has to do with a market demand. If there is demand for that product somebody is certainly going to fill that demand if a profit can be made. I'm not saying these scoops do or do not work, although I am highly skeptical these plastic pieces that for some reason aren't included from the factory by BMW really produce that much HP, and have no negative effects. But real world tests are what we need, dyno numbers don't really mean anything. I would love to see a car with scoops race a car without scoops.

The scoops vs. no scoops thing has been DONE! Do some REASEARCH!

http://m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-...ally-work.html

[lugnut]

Haven't we all been over the whole M5 vs M3 thing already. Posting results for a different car, with a different motor is pointless. It's not like you are talking about a 135/335/535, which, at a minimum has the same engine. If I posted a link that showed that "product x" showed a 15hp gain on a VW, would you assume that it would automatically produce similar gains on a Corvette?

Why not just post a link showing how the Ram Air Firebird had more horsepower than a Mustang. It would be just as relevant to you evidently.

And please, let the vendor/Elroy speak for himself. He seems very knowledgeable about his product, where as you are now coming off as an arrogant shill.

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by Sticky

The scoops vs. no scoops thing has been DONE! Do some REASEARCH!

http://m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-...ally-work.html

I didn't think researching a M5 board and seeing what people have done to improve their M5 had any relevance to products on a M3.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by J08M3

I didn't think researching a M5 board and seeing what people have done to improve their M5 had any relevance to products on a M3.

Actually, it would help you big time. See, the principle is the same. Obviously the motors are different, yet based on the same basic design.

See, if I look at data from, say, higher octane results on the M5 it won't necessary correlate 100% to the M3. There are principles that hold true and the background data will only help me with an understanding of the current data.

The M5board post served more to highlight silencing the same style doubters. People raised EXACTLY the same questions vs. the M5. What happened? The data was produced, reproduced, again and again. So if you doubt Eloy and his level of professionalism in dealing with his customers and in his development, the data already exists to support his claims.

You don't see the relevance because you don't want to.

There simply ALREADY is a ton of data to sort through with the M5/M6 , and 335 with scoops. The M3 has not been around that long, in a year or two we will have as much available. Why not utilize a source that has already dealt with these basic questions people here are asking?

I have already done the scoops, already ran cars, and already looked through various dynos with scoops for the E92 M3. You have... typed.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by lugnut

Haven't we all been over the whole M5 vs M3 thing already. Posting results for a different car, with a different motor is pointless. It's not like you are talking about a 135/335/535, which, at a minimum has the same engine. If I posted a link that showed that "product x" showed a 15hp gain on a VW, would you assume that it would automatically produce similar gains on a Corvette?

Why not just post a link showing how the Ram Air Firebird had more horsepower than a Mustang. It would be just as relevant to you evidently.

And please, let the vendor/Elroy speak for himself. He seems very knowledgeable about his product, where as you are now coming off as an arrogant shill.

Genius, the S65 is based on the S85. The intake is a bit different and that is one of the technical aspects he HAS BEEN DISCUSSING. It might surprise you I learn a lot of things on other boards about other cars that help me in understanding of my own. Shocking...

Eloy does not have time to silence every person who has no clue what they are talking about. He has to maintain a level of professionalism. I don't, I don't have anything to sell, so I can call you an idiot and not worry about it.

This same crap has already been done. A person doubts a manufacturer, lets call them lugnut, who has already built up credibility with quality parts at reasonable prices. There is mountains of data to support the manufacturer, and all the doubter has is skepticism. The manufacturer produces a dyno, offers to INSTALL FOR FREE the scoops at his facility, offers to DYNO the car to prove it, and has hundreds of satisfied customers. What do you have?

[Sales@Evolve]

I've been reading this thread with interest and was very interested to see if these scoops work.

We have a Dastek centrifugal fan with a 20hp motor. Our dyno is used primarily for live mapping (standalone systems and piggy backs etc). When we are mapping we have coolant (top and bottom hose), oil, air intake temperatures on screen taken from the vehicle through the OBD port to ensure nothing is getting too warm. No point mapping at 40 degrees intake temp with coolant temps approaching boiling point and oil temperatures above 120 degrees.
Our fan delivers well over 100mph wind speeds and keeps E39 M5's and E92 M3's cool depending on how we position it.

Not many people believe we can do this but some very well known engineers from M5board have been highly impressed with the kind of cooling we have after seeing it in person and datalogging their cars both on road and on the dyno.

We have had two instances now where we have had 335i's held under full load at 3-5000rpm for a good few mins and they are still cooler than on the road.

So, with the correct cooling it is possible to run these as cool as on the road under load upto a certain point.

Not all of you are going to agree with the above, I certainly didn't until I installed the fan.

So, in theory the RPi scoops or similar scoops with the correct cooling should show any differences on our dyno atleast.

On the M3, given that it's not a sealed system anyway, any increase in air pressure directly after the scoops will have zero effect on the system as a whole as pointed out by a couple of guys on here. That makes perfect sense.

The positive thing that I can suggest is that the air intake temperatures may fall faster with the scoops once the vehicle starts moving or has a fan blowing infront of it after being heatsoaked. It's not a huge difference in time a good few seconds until the AIT gets to around only 2-3 degrees higher than ambient. However, once intake temperature has stabalised it makes absolutely no difference. This is the general behaviour we see with intake upgrades such as these.

One negative aspect of the upgrade is the blocking of the frontal surface area of the radiator. It looked like to be atleast 25% of the radiator is now blocked off. We didn't get a chance to use thermocouples on the different areas of the radiator on a 335i to really have a proof that cooling could be affected but it would come as no surprise if there was a difference.

We are due to test these scoops on an M3 properly next week. M3's are seriously hard work on a dyno to get consistent results. Even with identical sensor readings you get fluctuations in fuelling from one run to another giving different top end power curves and ultimate horsepower. Tyre temperatures do play a role and when your looking for small increments in power it's always in the back of your head....... was that the engine making more power or the tyres just getting hot? Typically M3's will give very consistent readings if run after run is done on our dyno with only 1hp difference upto around 7000rpm. After this you always get a small fluctuation due to the ECU constantly changing fuelling at the top end.

I do believe that all products should be given a chance. It wouldn't be the first time people were proved wrong.

There is also no point in even trying to compare this arguement to that of the E60 M5. The intake system is completely different.

We will be getting back to you as soon as we know.

btw.....we don't offer RPi scoops right now! If the tests go well then we might consider them.

EDIT: Just to add, the scoops had no effect on power on a 335i.

[ace996]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Genius, the S65 is based on the S85.

Yes, I would say that in comparison, Lugnut's post does show Genius, or at least a solid level of comprehension and the ability to differentiate between an apple and an orange...but I bet you meant that description in a less than complimentary fashion... resorting to calling names?

Originally Posted by Sticky

The intake is a bit different and that is one of the technical aspects he HAS BEEN DISCUSSING.

The intake is not just a "bit" different, there is a gaping hole out the hood that lets the majority of "ram-air" pressure out of the box. Saying your head is just a bit different with the same size hole in it would be a gross misrepresentation of it's condition. I spelled it out in my above posts, and you've ignored my points. I'll ask nicely so as to have you not ignore/hide from the following question....
PLEASE TELL US HOW REAL POSITIVE RAM-AIR PRESSURE IS ATTAINED WITH THE HOOD VENT?

Please stick to the conversation of the "unique" airbox to the M3. Showing us M5/M6 or even 335 comparisons really does not help you support your points, but rather shows your stubborn unwillingness to accept a view other than your own.

And yes, showing us another company's dynos is only showing us a picture of the same pile of hype, yet taken from another camera.

And if I were Eloy, I'd ask you to STFU as you're not doing him any service as his spokesman in this thread.

Now...please do not forget the questions I asked you above... I impatienty await your reply...

[schnell325]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

I've been reading this thread with interest and was very interested to see if these scoops work.

We have a Dastek centrifugal fan with a 20hp motor. Our dyno is used primarily for live mapping (standalone systems and piggy backs etc). When we are mapping we have coolant (top and bottom hose), oil, air intake temperatures on screen taken from the vehicle through the OBD port to ensure nothing is getting too warm. No point mapping at 40 degrees intake temp with coolant temps approaching boiling point and oil temperatures above 120 degrees.
Our fan delivers well over 100mph wind speeds and keeps E39 M5's and E92 M3's cool depending on how we position it.

Not many people believe we can do this but some very well known engineers from M5board have been highly impressed with the kind of cooling we have after seeing it in person and datalogging their cars both on road and on the dyno.

We have had two instances now where we have had 335i's held under full load at 3-5000rpm for a good few mins and they are still cooler than on the road.

So, with the correct cooling it is possible to run these as cool as on the road under load upto a certain point.

Not all of you are going to agree with the above, I certainly didn't until I installed the fan.

So, in theory the RPi scoops or similar scoops with the correct cooling should show any differences on our dyno atleast.

On the M3, given that it's not a sealed system anyway, any increase in air pressure directly after the scoops will have zero effect on the system as a whole as pointed out by a couple of guys on here. That makes perfect sense.

The positive thing that I can suggest is that the air intake temperatures may fall faster with the scoops once the vehicle starts moving or has a fan blowing infront of it after being heatsoaked. It's not a huge difference in time a good few seconds until the AIT gets to around only 2-3 degrees higher than ambient. However, once intake temperature has stabalised it makes absolutely no difference. This is the general behaviour we see with intake upgrades such as these.

One negative aspect of the upgrade is the blocking of the frontal surface area of the radiator. It looked like to be atleast 25% of the radiator is now blocked off. We didn't get a chance to use thermocouples on the different areas of the radiator on a 335i to really have a proof that cooling could be affected but it would come as no surprise if there was a difference.

We are due to test these scoops on an M3 properly next week. M3's are seriously hard work on a dyno to get consistent results. Even with identical sensor readings you get fluctuations in fuelling from one run to another giving different power curves and ultimate horsepower. Tyre temperatures do play a role and when your looking for small increments in power it's always in the back of your head....... was that the engine making more power or the tyres just getting hot? Typically M3's will give very consistent readings run after run on our dyno with only 1hp difference upto around 7000rpm. After this you always get a small fluctuation due to the ECU constantly changing fuelling at the top end.

I do believe that all products should be given a chance. It wouldn't be the first time people were proved wrong.

There is also no point in even trying to compare this arguement to that of the E60 M5. The intake system is completely different.

We will be getting back to you as soon as we know.

btw.....we don't offer RPi scoops right now! If the tests go well then we might consider them.

EDIT: Just to add, the scoops had no effect on power on a 335i.

We await your findings.

[lugnut]

Sticky,

First off, take a breath and relax. I never once had anything negative to say about the product, nor the person/people who manufacture it. If anyone took what I said as a slight against RPI that is in no way what I intended. Personally I think it is great that Elroy is helping out those that already purchased his earlier products, and I wish more business owners would operate the way he does.

I do however have an issue with someone that claims to have nothing to gain ranting on and on about how great something is. You like it. We get it. Now please allow someone with more technical expertise answer the questions that were posted. Me think thou doth protest too much.

To say that something works because it does on car A, and since car B is similar it will work just as well is ludicrous. Granted, I am just a lowly civil servant and not a mechanical engineer, but I can't think of any other instance where one could compare products across a range like you are attempting. Just because the S65 has the same bore and stroke (I believe) as the S85 doesn't mean that they would have interchangeable parts. My sidearm is "based" on Colt's 1911 design, yet outside of the most basic function of it, they are nothing alike. Changing a part on one wouldn't necessary yield the same result on the other.

As it was written, Apples/Oranges.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by lugnut

Sticky,

First off, take a breath and relax. I never once had anything negative to say about the product, nor the person/people who manufacture it. If anyone took what I said as a slight against RPI that is in no way what I intended. Personally I think it is great that Elroy is helping out those that already purchased his earlier products, and I wish more business owners would operate the way he does.

I do however have an issue with someone that claims to have nothing to gain ranting on and on about how great something is. You like it. We get it. Now please allow someone with more technical expertise answer the questions that were posted. Me think thou doth protest too much.

To say that something works because it does on car A, and since car B is similar it will work just as well is ludicrous. Granted, I am just a lowly civil servant and not a mechanical engineer, but I can't think of any other instance where one could compare products across a range like you are attempting. Just because the S65 has the same bore and stroke (I believe) as the S85 doesn't mean that they would have interchangeable parts. My sidearm is "based" on Colt's 1911 design, yet outside of the most basic function of it, they are nothing alike. Changing a part on one wouldn't necessary yield the same result on the other.

As it was written, Apples/Oranges.

I just got off the phone with Evosport, my car is putting down some very nice power on the dyno. I have some great news regarding powerchip software as well. Guess I like to deal in the REALITY of the power the car is making rather than type about it.

I did not say they were the exact same thing, there are many things in that thread on m5board which carry over to this discussion. You could at least do yourself the service of reading it so you could up your level of technical expertise.

The fact is Eloy stands behind his product, offers a dyno, will refund the money to customers that aren't satisfied, and there should be more vendors like him. He offers products that have DYNO PROVEN gains at a reasonable price.

What I think, is that I am sick of people being so cynical about vendors who have already established their credibility. I would like to thank RPI for what they do for our cars, not second guess everything they do when they already PROVIDE the data supporting their claims.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by ace996

Yes, I would say that in comparison, Lugnut's post does show Genius, or at least a solid level of comprehension and the ability to differentiate between an apple and an orange...but I bet you meant that description in a less than complimentary fashion... resorting to calling names?


The intake is not just a "bit" different, there is a gaping hole out the hood that lets the majority of "ram-air" pressure out of the box. Saying your head is just a bit different with the same size hole in it would be a gross misrepresentation of it's condition. I spelled it out in my above posts, and you've ignored my points. I'll ask nicely so as to have you not ignore/hide from the following question....
PLEASE TELL US HOW REAL POSITIVE RAM-AIR PRESSURE IS ATTAINED WITH THE HOOD VENT?

Please stick to the conversation of the "unique" airbox to the M3. Showing us M5/M6 or even 335 comparisons really does not help you support your points, but rather shows your stubborn unwillingness to accept a view other than your own.

And yes, showing us another company's dynos is only showing us a picture of the same pile of hype, yet taken from another camera.

And if I were Eloy, I'd ask you to STFU as you're not doing him any service as his spokesman in this thread.

Now...please do not forget the questions I asked you above... I impatienty await your reply...

Blah blah blah.

Your level of scientific deduction of the intake has been that you got a leaf stuck in it. Wonderful, thanks for your help.

For everyone else, know that you can get your money back from RPI, get a free dyno at the dyno day, free installation, and that RPI has a WONDERFUL , DOCUMENTED reputation that should not be tarnished by a random douchebag who has no experience with the part or RPI.

If anyone with a stock M3 would like to line up next to mine, you have the opportunity on November 1st, at California Speedway for street legal drags. Or you can type about the scoops as if you have any hands on experience with them or with these cars and modifying them on a daily basis.

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Actually, it would help you big time. See, the principle is the same. Obviously the motors are different, yet based on the same basic design.

See, if I look at data from, say, higher octane results on the M5 it won't necessary correlate 100% to the M3. There are principles that hold true and the background data will only help me with an understanding of the current data.

The M5board post served more to highlight silencing the same style doubters. People raised EXACTLY the same questions vs. the M5. What happened? The data was produced, reproduced, again and again. So if you doubt Eloy and his level of professionalism in dealing with his customers and in his development, the data already exists to support his claims.

You don't see the relevance because you don't want to.

There simply ALREADY is a ton of data to sort through with the M5/M6 , and 335 with scoops. The M3 has not been around that long, in a year or two we will have as much available. Why not utilize a source that has already dealt with these basic questions people here are asking?

I have already done the scoops, already ran cars, and already looked through various dynos with scoops for the E92 M3. You have... typed.

I don't see the relevance because the intake is not the same. Why don't you get some real data with your car using techniques like ace996 suggested? Those are numbers I would like to see that no one will be able to argue with.

I don't doubt Eloy and his professionalism nor have I said these scoops don't work. I'm just highly skeptical of the claims, and see more potential for negative effects than positive. I also believe most peoples "butt dyno" is mostly influenced by their mind wanting to believe something than what's truly happening. The power of suggestion is extremely strong. I seriously doubt anyone could take a 414hp car for a ride, then the same car with 428hp and feel the difference. As some people have claimed to feel their car being faster with this mod.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by J08M3

I don't see the relevance because the intake is not the same. Why don't you get some real data with your car using techniques like ace996 suggested? Those are numbers I would like to see that no one will be able to argue with.

I don't doubt Eloy and his professionalism nor have I said these scoops don't work. I'm just highly skeptical of the claims, and see more potential for negative effects than positive. I also believe most peoples "butt dyno" is mostly influenced by their mind wanting to believe something than what's truly happening. The power of suggestion is extremely strong. I seriously doubt anyone could take a 414hp car for a ride, then the same car with 428hp and feel the difference. As some people have claimed to feel their car being faster with this mod.

I have chimed in briefly earlier on in this thread. Just want to chime in again with a big +1 on all the points above and offer my support for the skeptics here. A skeptic is very valuable, once you win them over they will go to the grave fighting for what they KNOW to be true. Until then they are just a skeptic and skeptic is so far from "hater".

-1 on the butt dyno, even at +~10hp - you WANT to feel it so you do, that has been proven in so many different domains
-1 on the scoops showing NO effect for the 335
-1 on how bad it is to have the wrong supporters for a product
-1 on thinking the M3 and M5 intake systems are very similar at all

Also as I posted earlier how about some careful and repeated real world testing ON A SINGLE car with some careful analysis of MEAN values, errors, standard deviation and reproducibility. All hallmarks of good experimentation. I even offered to help out in this regard with the analysis.

[ace996]

My comments in red...

Originally Posted by Sticky

Blah blah blah. this means you can't answer the questions I've asked you? or are ashamed to face the undoubtable conclusions you've finally come to realize...

Your level of scientific deduction of the intake has been that you got a leaf stuck in it. - good for you, you used some big words...and yes, my SD of the airbox's unefficiency of it's "ram-air" effectiveness was blatantly demonstrated by leaf-stems poking through the vent on the road...oh, and also rain-drops flying out whilst atspeed. When air rushes out of the airbox...it can't be "ram-air". If you need help developing similar feats of scientific deduction, Leapfrog has some wonderful products that can point you in the direction of developing your mental skills of deduction...Wonderful, thanks for your help.

For everyone else, know that you can get your money back from RPI, get a free dyno at the dyno day, free installation, and that RPI has a WONDERFUL , DOCUMENTED reputation that should not be tarnished by a random douchebag who has no experience with the part or RPI.
-damn...you revert to potty-mouth...and now you've made this personal...
Keep in mind, or try to keep up, that I only challenge these gains...I do not wish to "tarnish" anyone's reputation, the truth usually does that, but to bring to light an improbable power increase from forcing air out the top of our hoods. There has been no real testing of this product, other than by the vendors and their fanboys.
Oh...the overheating statement is where I question one's integrity or the efficiency of their dyno fans...but it was funny how a shiny new product was going to be released for...yet again...a vendor's dyno related testing.

If anyone with a stock M3 would like to line up next to mine, you have the opportunity on November 1st, at California Speedway for street legal drags. Or you can type about the scoops as if you have any hands on experience with them or with these cars and modifying them on a daily basis.
-bold statements from someone who also doesn't "modify" these cars on a daily basis...you just buy the mods...you don't "make" them, although from your staunch defense of them I suspect you have some role in their sales.
You want to do a real test of your scoops.... buy a datalogger and go to the drags (sad I even have to type "drag" on an M3 forum...you have more to be ashamed of than your previous posts) and do your runs with and without the scoops...and log the runs. Or continue to hide behind your personal attacks/name calling/ and fairy-tale butt-dyno gains...

As I've said before, prove they work and I'll buy a set...but so far all I've seen is marketing hype. I want you, or someone who's completed some Leapfrog programs, to prove that these scoops work...

And you've still hid from my previous questions...why is that? What are you hiding?

[ace996]

Originally Posted by lugnut

+1 to Ace's comments. I would love to see all the possible combinations of scoops/no scoops, plugged/not plugged posted somewhere.

Just my 2 cents, but I find it hard to believe that plugging the vent in the hood wouldn't have some negative effect on the vehicle. BMW spent millions designing and testing this car, and granted they have other variables to deal with besides pure performance, but if that holds, than wouldn't the ALMS M3 have this vent plugged, or more likely removed all together. From the pics I looked at it is very tough to see an overhead shot of the hood, but it looks like there is still something on the driver's side of the hood.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...3DGXN%26sa%3DN

I've no doubt that BMW has the vent for a reason...the exact purpose is not clear, although I've eluded to my suspicions in prior posts. Perhaps low-speed/high-rpm flow, where the intake point of the radiator or the fog-light point are not enough...or emissions...or sound...or to somehow justify their existance (although the vestigial passenger vent is confusing, perhaps just for symetry) but I do know that it is a leak in our airbox, and it doesn't allow any ram-air benefit...even for the well-designed stock inlets. Frankly, if I can prove that there is sufficient airflow into the box at speed to produce enough flow to keep that point from being anything other than an airbox leak, I'll plug it up. I think it might just be a give/take scenario....under 50mph or so plugging it will remove a couple of hp, but allowing it to be ram-air may provide a couple of hp over 50mph. If that's the case, I'd rather have it up top. And if that's really the truth, then these scoops may actually do something then.


As to the pictures of the vent on the ALMS car, sure, they're going to keep the car looking as stock-like as possible. Just because the vents are there doesn't mean they are functional...just take a look at our fender vents.
If they are able to modify the airbox, I'll bet the intake will be drawn from the front of the vehicle and feed directly into the intake plenum...like the Vettes or Vipers. That design maximizes the 'ram-effect' and shortens the intake tract.
We'll see...

Be good,
TomK

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by ace996

My comments in red...


As I've said before, prove they work and I'll buy a set...but so far all I've seen is marketing hype. I want you, or someone who's completed some Leapfrog programs, to prove that these scoops work...

And you've still hid from my previous questions...why is that? What are you hiding?

I could care less if u buy a set.

The info you requested is all available, you need me to hold your hand and read it to you?

[ace996]

Originally Posted by Sticky

I could care less if u buy a set.

The info you requested is all available, you need me to hold your hand and read it to you?

Yes, yes I do...I go so far as to DARE you to do that...please point me in a direction to valid, actual testing of "open" airbox results...M5/M6 results don't count, as they are "closed" systems.

So far, you have not been up to the task.