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      06-07-2019, 02:20 PM   #1
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Russian Military Aggression Against US Military Ships/Planes

Why is Putin trying so hard to provoke the US into attacking one of Russia's planes or ships? Is he doing it for his home audience to look tough or what other motive am I missing? There are tons of stories like these over the past few years. Also, I give the US military personnel a great deal of credit for restraining themselves and not taking the bait in the face of some very dangerous tactics by the Russian military.

https://www.apnews.com/775d3404444d476aa56124a3147b06a7
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      06-07-2019, 02:23 PM   #2
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Trump must have told him to do it!
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      06-07-2019, 02:28 PM   #3
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Because that is the intent of the Russian government and stems from the Cold War since they know they couldn't handle a true war with the US and West. Whether it's these military actions, meddling in our elections, etc. They want to cause chaos to democracy and recently they've been succeeding quite well. Putin is an expert at this and extremely effective. The Russian government can't be trusted. The always have motives to disrupt democracy.
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      06-07-2019, 02:33 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Because that is the intent of the Russian government and stems from the Cold War since they know they couldn't handle a true war with the US and West. Whether it's these military actions, meddling in our elections, etc. They want to cause chaos to democracy and recently they've been succeeding quite well. Putin is an expert at this and extremely effective. The Russian government can't be trusted. The always have motives to disrupt democracy.
Maybe, I guess I'm not sure how nearly colliding with our aircraft or ships with these tactics is messing with our democracy. If anything I would think it is doing the opposite. It could blow back on Putin and unite a very fractured US against a common enemy.
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      06-07-2019, 02:49 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Maybe, I guess I'm not sure how nearly colliding with our aircraft or ships with these tactics is messing with our democracy. If anything I would think it is doing the opposite. It could blow back on Putin and unite a very fractured US against a common enemy.
Okay - bear with me, because this will be long, and I apologize:

Why are they doing it? Because, Russia. Antagonizing the West is central to one of Putin’s most cherished ambitions: undermining NATO. By constantly pushing the limits with risky intercepts and other tactics, Putin forces NATO to make difficult choices about when and how to respond that can sow dissension among its members.

This problem of the military "brush up's" that you mention, which began not long after Russia’s seizure of the Crimea in 2014, have accelerated rapidly in the past years. In 2016, NATO scrambled jets more than 400 times to intercept Russian military aircraft that were flying without having broadcast their required identification code or having filed a flight plan. In 2018, that number had leapt to 980 an average of more than two intercepts a day. There has been a similar increase in Russian jets intercepting US or NATO aircraft, as well as a significant uptick in incidents at sea in which Russian jets run mock attacks against American warships.

U.S. officials view run-ins with Russia as the most dangerous, because they are part of a deliberate strategy of intimidation and provocation by Russian president Vladimir Putin, and because the stakes are so high. The potential for miscalculation is probably higher than at any other point since the end of the Cold War.

In addition, a certain belligerence towards the U.S. is practically a political necessity for Putin. The Russian leader owes his popularity to "the tiger of patriotic mobilization." Given the country’s diminished status in the world and its stalled economy, he added, militarized fervor for the motherland is the only thing going for his regime.

Since the Cold War ended in 1991, NATO has accepted 10 European countries formerly allied with the Soviet Union. In response, Russia has expanded its military; engaged in powerful cyber war attacks against Estonia, Germany, Finland, Lithuania and other countries; seized parts of Georgia; forcibly annexed Crimea; sent its troops into Ukraine; and staged multiple no-notice exercises with the ground and air power it would use to invade its Baltic neighbors.

=========

Putin is brilliant, period. Evil as well. It isn't just the USA that he antagonizes and wins.

In December 2015, a Turkish F-16 jet shot down a Russian SU-24 fighter on the Turkish-Syrian border. The Russian fighter plummeted in flames and its co-pilot was killed by ground fire. The surviving pilot, said he’d been attacked without warning; Turkey insisted that the Russian plane had violated its airspace. Within days Putin had deftly turned the incident to his advantage. Instead of seeking to punish Turkey, he accused the U.S. of having a hand in the incident, without any evidence. Then he coaxed Turkey, a NATO member, into participating in joint combat operations over Syria. He also engineered Syrian peace talks in which the United States was pointedly not invited to participate. Russia is playing three-dimensional chess while we are playing checkers.

Putin’s favored tactic is known as escalation dominance. The idea is to push the other side until you win, to escalate to the point where the adversary stops, won’t go farther. It’s a very destabilizing strategy. Probe with a bayonet; when you hit steel withdraw, when you hit mush, proceed. Right now, the Russians keep pushing out and hitting mush.

This mindset is basically the opposite of how both American and Soviet leaders approached each other during the Cold War, even during periods of exceptional stress such as the 1962 Cuban missile crisis. Having endured the devastation of World War II, they understood the horror that lurked on the far side of a crisis. When things started to get too close, they would back off. Now it's the other way around.
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Last edited by Run Silent; 06-12-2019 at 08:54 AM..
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      06-07-2019, 03:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post

Putin is brilliant, period. Evil as well.

Russia is playing three-dimensional chess while we are playing checkers.
Yep, and we are totally outmatched by him.
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      06-07-2019, 03:42 PM   #7
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These things are really nothing new. Back when I was at sea they would pretty regularly close on my ship with Migs and Bears. Our fleet was so good that I can’t recall a time where they weren’t ‘escorted’ by a Tomcat or a Phantom. Our carriers jets would gather ‘intel’ on them the same way. Our warships alway kept miles between each other, I never saw one within 4 or 5 NM I would guess.
On the other hand we would quietly track a Soviet sub without them knowing we were on top of them and give them a blast of our active sonar. We had them spit diversion cans on two occasions and try to scram out of the area at flank speed.
It was the Cold War era.

This recent event of the run up on one of our ships takes it to the next level though, ships that close together at speed, in moving seas and not communicating with each could have went south pretty damn quick. Two armed( maybe with specials) fast ships colliding with each other is a recipe for bad outcome and maybe escalation. They’re testing us and it’s not a smart move on their part.
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      06-07-2019, 04:03 PM   #8
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If Obama was Chamberlain in his effectiveness (if we make a comparison to WW2), who will Trump be? The truly scary part is that with a Russia/China alliance, the world becomes a far darker place. China is just as bad as Russia, if not worse.

To me, the obvious counter is to cut off Russia from the west economically. I don't think even China could save them from that.
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      06-07-2019, 04:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyRyan2019 View Post
Yep, and we are totally outmatched by him.
No. Obama and Trump were/are being totally outmatched by him.
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      06-07-2019, 04:08 PM   #10
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Been going on since forever. Common with attack subs ours vs theirs in the 60's when they tried to shadow our boomers. There were "rules of the road then" now not so much.

Worst case is that the russians miscalculate and sink one of ours and we sink one of theirs. That is where is "should" stop. If the russians go further they will find themselves without a navy. Putin knows that.
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      06-07-2019, 04:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
No. Obama and Trump were/are being totally outmatched by him.
I know you are joking so I won't even question the comment. Compared to us..Russian army, air force and navy is third world.
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      06-07-2019, 04:14 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
I know you are joking so I won't even question the comment. Compared to us..Russian army, air force and navy is third world.
Military, yes. Politically he is kicking our ass.
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      06-07-2019, 04:19 PM   #13
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Countries have grown to expect this type of behavior from Russia. If the class clown does something inappropriate, everyone kind of rolls their eyes. If the valedictorian does that same action, feather will get ruffled.
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      06-07-2019, 04:39 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Okay - bear with me, because you are now on my playground. I didn't have much to do with Afghanistan, but most of my military career and subsequent government service was directed solely towards Russia and the old SSR's. This will be long, and I apologize:

Why are they doing it? Because, Russia. Antagonizing the West is central to one of Putinís most cherished ambitions: undermining NATO. By constantly pushing the limits with risky intercepts and other tactics, Putin forces NATO to make difficult choices about when and how to respond that can sow dissension among its members.

This problem of the military "brush up's" that you mention, which began not long after Russiaís seizure of the Crimea in 2014, have accelerated rapidly in the past years. In 2016, NATO scrambled jets more than 400 times to intercept Russian military aircraft that were flying without having broadcast their required identification code or having filed a flight plan. In 2018, that number had leapt to 980 an average of more than two intercepts a day. There has been a similar increase in Russian jets intercepting US or NATO aircraft, as well as a significant uptick in incidents at sea in which Russian jets run mock attacks against American warships.

U.S. officials view run-ins with Russia as the most dangerous, because they are part of a deliberate strategy of intimidation and provocation by Russian president Vladimir Putin, and because the stakes are so high. The potential for miscalculation is probably higher than at any other point since the end of the Cold War.

In addition, a certain belligerence towards the U.S. is practically a political necessity for Putin. The Russian leader owes his popularity to "the tiger of patriotic mobilization." Given the countryís diminished status in the world and its stalled economy, he added, militarized fervor for the motherland is the only thing going for his regime.

Since the Cold War ended in 1991, NATO has accepted 10 European countries formerly allied with the Soviet Union. In response, Russia has expanded its military; engaged in powerful cyber war attacks against Estonia, Germany, Finland, Lithuania and other countries; seized parts of Georgia; forcibly annexed Crimea; sent its troops into Ukraine; and staged multiple no-notice exercises with the ground and air power it would use to invade its Baltic neighbors.

=========

Putin is brilliant, period. Evil as well. It isn't just the USA that he antagonizes and wins.

In December 2015, a Turkish F-16 jet shot down a Russian SU-24 fighter on the Turkish-Syrian border. The Russian fighter plummeted in flames and its co-pilot was killed by ground fire. The surviving pilot, said heíd been attacked without warning; Turkey insisted that the Russian plane had violated its airspace. Within days Putin had deftly turned the incident to his advantage. Instead of seeking to punish Turkey, he accused the U.S. of having a hand in the incident, without any evidence. Then he coaxed Turkey, a NATO member, into participating in joint combat operations over Syria. He also engineered Syrian peace talks in which the United States was pointedly not invited to participate. Russia is playing three-dimensional chess while we are playing checkers.

Putinís favored tactic is known as escalation dominance. The idea is to push the other side until you win, to escalate to the point where the adversary stops, wonít go farther. Itís a very destabilizing strategy. Probe with a bayonet; when you hit steel withdraw, when you hit mush, proceed. Right now, the Russians keep pushing out and hitting mush.

This mindset is basically the opposite of how both American and Soviet leaders approached each other during the Cold War, even during periods of exceptional stress such as the 1962 Cuban missile crisis. Having endured the devastation of World War II, they understood the horror that lurked on the far side of a crisis. When things started to get too close, they would back off. Now it's the other way around.
Thanks for the detailed post, much appreciated.
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      06-07-2019, 04:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
No. Obama and Trump were/are being totally outmatched by him.
Also Bush 2, but especially Obama. Trump could be a wild card, but most likely correct on him as well.
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      06-07-2019, 05:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
I know you are joking so I won't even question the comment. Compared to us..Russian army, air force and navy is third world.
How by having 9 or so aircraft's that can be sinked in minutes?
No wonder USA is so despred to get Turkey and India away from s400.
I can tell you one thing Russian missiles and defence is no match by USA.
Let them first learn how to win a war, because i havent seen them win a single war from there entire history.
I am out, because most people including you, are brainwashed by your own people to believe its the 90's, and USA is the only player left. But your wrong and big time wrong, including with China and everything in between.
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      06-07-2019, 05:47 PM   #17
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After immediately ignoring the comment above, has anyone looked at the pictures on the AP article? Looks like the Russian destroyer was the one turning into the American ship.
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      06-07-2019, 05:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
After immediately ignoring the comment above, has anyone looked at the pictures on the AP article? Looks like the Russian destroyer was the one turning into the American ship.
Itís pretty clear by the video the Russian ship was the aggressor.
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      06-07-2019, 07:55 PM   #19
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Trump is joke around the World. Not surprised.

What's Trump gonna do? Just a little pussy draft dodger.
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      06-07-2019, 07:57 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roma_335i View Post
I can tell you one thing Russian missiles and defence is no match by USA.
And, how are you so sure about this? Are you saying they are superior to US missile & defense capabilities?
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      06-07-2019, 08:21 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
After immediately ignoring the comment above, has anyone looked at the pictures on the AP article? Looks like the Russian destroyer was the one turning into the American ship.
Judging by Roma's grammar and being from Minnesota I think he is from Ilhan Omar's congressional district.
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      06-07-2019, 08:43 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriphill View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
After immediately ignoring the comment above, has anyone looked at the pictures on the AP article? Looks like the Russian destroyer was the one turning into the American ship.
Judging by Roma's grammar and being from Minnesota I think he is from Ilhan Omar's congressional district.
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