Tough Choices

[Not Sure]

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

I agree with you here, I believe the RB issue has been blown out of proportion and is now a money making scam by side street mechanics. Rule number one, stay away from anything that's had a supercharger mod - it causes uneven wear on bearing no. 1. The aftermarket bearings everyone is using have not been tested by BMW. Also remember to use premium gas, I think a lot of ppl out there use regular and worry about the consequences later...

Buy the manual, I took mine around the block yesterday (waiting for title) to give her a run out - the MT is so much more fun and engaging, yeah you might lose a few seconds on the track, but it's REAL driving.

so you've yet to even register your car but you're here giving advice. *sigh* gotta love the internet.

[Ab28]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

This has been beat to death by the previous posters but here's some advice

Forget about the E60. If you were looking at a 40k E60 then maybe, maybe you'd be able to afford it.
Forget about the E46. It is significantly more expensive to maintain than the E9X generation. SMG is a whole avenue of new issues and then you have to add valve adjustments, subframe BS and vanos crap to the mix.

Even for the E9X... just regular wear and tear, tires, gas, insurance... at least the E9X is quite reliable!

+1.

I always liked the E60 M5 (sound primarily) and can afford a very nice example. But the potential headaches and downtime turned me off.

Labor can always be negotiated or mitigated by DIY, but as mentioned parts aren't cheap.

I have a high mileage E9x now. Doing the bearings soon and it's been reliable. Want to help SYT ??

Entry cost is only part of the deal. You can drop $5-6k before you know it. At that point a 19k car becomes 25k real quick...before daily fuel stops and sales tax.

[Ab28]

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

Buy the manual, I took mine around the block yesterday (waiting for title) to give her a run out - the MT is so much more fun and engaging, yeah you might lose a few seconds on the track, but it's REAL driving.

Oh please, totally subjective. If I had a dollar every time I heard this...

I own 2 and 3 pedal M cars and never once thought that the DCT isn't real driving. By that measure every current Lambo, Ferrari, and McLaren isn't as well.

Driving a manual on the road takes very little skill. I've taught people in under 15 minutes. Every 80 year old grandmother in Europe drives a manual. I hardly think they walk up to their car and expect an engaging driving experience.

It's not like you're operating a helicopter.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

He's paying cash so it's not that bad a financial decision, if he gets the right one and takes care of it he'll get his money back...

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

He's paying cash so it's not that bad a financial decision, if he gets the right one and takes care of it he'll get his money back...

It's still a bad financial decision regardless of financing. The vast majority of these vehicles will continue to depreciate and maintenance, gas, insurance will be a significant outflow. It's a want pure and simple.

Invest your money man!!!

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by lat77

I own 2 and 3 pedal M cars and never once thought that the DCT isn't real driving. By that measure every current Lambo, Ferrari, and McLaren isn't as well.

I have a DCT and 6MT E9X M3 which I can drive back to back and fully agree with your assessment.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by lat77

+1.

I always liked the E60 M5 (sound primarily) and can afford a very nice example. But the potential headaches and downtime turned me off.

I have a high mileage E9x now. Doing the bearings soon and it's been reliable. Want to help SYT ??
.

Where do you live?

I test drove a G90 M5 recently and was really impressed even though it has multiple things that I *hate*, specifically electric steering, 8sp zf vs DCT, turbo engines and the worst of all, AWD! Heresy!
Anyway the car was fantastic.
The next car I got into was the E60 M5 with the 6MT and an exhaust. Hands down I'd take that car before a new G90. You will never be able to match the sound of that thing, especially as we go to worse sounding engines every day

I have right of first refusal on two E60 M5s with the stick shifts. They are completely spectacular but take very deep pockets to run correctly

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

You have a bunch of guys here proclaiming that they had the RB issue on their car - but 99.9% of the time what that translates to is they changed the RB's for no reason and 'they looked worn' - nothing failed. Now we have a bunch of M3's with aftermarket RB's driving around. The other thing is when ppl sell these modified M3's on, they remove the supercharging- so if that's the cause of uneven wear it's not being attributed to supercharging.

We can debate until the cows come home and hell freezes over.

My 2013 E92 was bought brand new by me and went through the most stringent break in known to mankind, then had oil changes every 5k miles, was never driven in cold or for short trips. When I replaced the rod bearings at 30k miles they were beaten to shit, worse than my 130k E46M track car.

If you have money to play the RB lottery by all means do it. I like keeping the original engine in my car there so I replaced them on both and both looked similarly beaten to crap

[LuckiSevens]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

We can debate until the cows come home and hell freezes over.

My 2013 E92 was bought brand new by me and went through the most stringent break in known to mankind, then had oil changes every 5k miles, was never driven in cold or for short trips. When I replaced the rod bearings at 30k miles they were beaten to shit, worse than my 130k E46M track car.

If you have money to play the RB lottery by all means do it. I like keeping the original engine in my car there so I replaced them on both and both looked similarly beaten to crap

Again - nothing failed. It's always this big long story leading up to the punchline "they looked worn" when you expect 'the engine blew up' which it never does.

Now you have aftermarket minimally tested bearings in a 30k mileage car.

[Ab28]

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

As someone who learned on and drove manuals in the U.K. for 16 years - there's a lot more skill involved, it's also a lot safer for high speed driving and over-taking, you have control over the engine. You just haven't driven a manual long enough to know the real difference.

So glad you've come to a conclusion on my automotive history with zero facts.

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

There's a reason ppl will overtake on single lane roads A roads in the U.K. whereas over here in the US it isn't normal because auto trans are unsafe in that scenario. MT trans controls and balances the engine power. Granted, the DCT is a semi manual so to speak, but, if you want to enjoy the car it's MT all the way for me.

Overtaking on a single lane road is a bad idea in general and has nothing to do with the cars transmission.

I've seen this done by minivans. Just stop.

[wyatth]

One other thing .. as tempting as it may be to rock an M3 while in college or whatever, I would 200% recommend getting something cheaper/more reliable, and more practical to go out and do things with friends. Trips and bar outings when you're young >>>>> a nicer car.

Get a lightly used GTI.

[cjm41]

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

I agree with you here, I believe the RB issue has been blown out of proportion and is now a money making scam by side street mechanics. Rule number one, stay away from anything that's had a supercharger mod - it causes uneven wear on bearing no. 1. The aftermarket bearings everyone is using have not been tested by BMW. Also remember to use premium gas, I think a lot of ppl out there use regular and worry about the consequences later...

Buy the manual, I took mine around the block yesterday (waiting for title) to give her a run out - the MT is so much more fun and engaging, yeah you might lose a few seconds on the track, but it's REAL driving.

Huh? To all of this.

1. Most every aftermarket part in existence has not been tested by BMW. That does not mean it was not tested by competent (and in some cases, superior) engineers. Wouldn't one be able to argue the BMW engineers screwed up here? BMW is not infallible. This is not their first blunder. People are pulling 50k mile BE bearings out of cars looking like they just got pulled out of the packaging. Not one single person has opened an S65 to find PERFECT OEM bearings (although some are better than others). These are not wear items. BMW screwed up. Not replacing is a gamble, you might get lucky, many do. Many dont.

That said, the rod bearing thing is a "drive at your own risk" vs "spend money at your own risk" type thing. It's up to every individual to assess the level of risk their comfortable with against the amount of money they're comfortable spending.

If you think this is a side street mechanic scam, you're way more cynical than me (which is hard to believe). Plus, I don't know any side-street mechanics doing RB jobs on S65s.

2. Manual vs DCT... ugh. This has been done... not going to touch it. Should have tried driving a DCT car... I'm a save the manuals guy, but I couldn't ignore how damn good this transmission is. It's nothing like driving an auto (unless you put it in grandma mode D/1-2). Overall this is obviously subjective and I personally like manual better, but the proper transmission for this engine is the DCT. It was designed that way for a reason.

3. You think people put regular unleaded in these cars? Really? You think the typical M owner is putting 87 octane in their car? Come on.

Even so... how on earth does that affect the rod bearings?

OP- I agree with the sentiment it might not be the right time. However, take advice cautiously. Being cautious, in general, is the way to shop and maintain these cars, period.

Edited: removed something ("buy the manual" I thought the guy was saying to buy the owner's manual)

[LuckiSevens]

Originally Posted by cjm41

Huh? To all of this.

1. Most every aftermarket part in existence has not been tested by BMW. That does not mean it was not tested by competent (and in some cases, superior) engineers. Wouldn't one be able to argue the BMW engineers screwed up here? BMW is not infallible. This is not their first blunder. People are pulling 50k mile BE bearings out of cars looking like they just got pulled out of the packaging. Not one single person has opened an S65 to find PERFECT bearings (although some are better than others).

That said, the rod bearing thing is a "drive at your own risk" vs "spend money at your own risk" type thing. It's up to every individual to assess the level of risk their comfortable with against the amount of money they're comfortable spending.

If you think this is a side street mechanic scam, you're way more cynical than me (which is hard to believe). Plus, I don't know any side-street mechanics doing RB jobs on S65s.

2. Buy the manual? It's available all over online in PDF format, gramps.

3. Manual vs DCT... ugh. This has been done... not going to touch it. Should have tried driving a DCT car... I'm a save the manuals guy, but I couldn't ignore how damn good this transmission is. It's nothing like driving an auto (unless you put it in grandma mode D/1-2). Overall this is obviously subjective and I personally like manual better, but the proper transmission for this engine is the DCT. It was designed that way for a reason.

4. You think people put regular unleaded in these cars? Really? You think the typical M owner is putting 87 octane in their car? Come on.

Even so... how on earth does that affect the rod bearings?

OP- I agree with the sentiment it might not be the right time. However, take advice cautiously. Being cautious, in general, is the way to shop and maintain these cars, period.

1. So you're saying BMW M engineering aren't as good as - who? You don't even know if there's a real problem - The only way to prove it is to produce failure stats from verified non-modified cars... "urgh urgh urgh" you don't have that information. y'all are supercharging a car that isn't designed for supercharging, any experienced mechanic would agree that supercharging/turbo'ing creates additional wear on the engine components. Like I say, all the statements on here are about 'numpty says his bearings are worn and they would have failed if he didn't change them' are non-scientific, non-professional opinions, and always 'non-failure' stories.

2. Lame comment

3. "This car was designed for DCT" - no 'DCT was designed for lower skill drivers who can't handle a MT properly'.

4. "You think people put regular unleaded in these cars? Really?" Yeah, for the same reason they do all of their own repairs, a lot of owners are younger guys. Again, you have no way to back up your opinion either way but the facts suggest I'm correct. The engine isn't tuned for regular so it will not run as designed - now, if it's supercharged you're going to burn a lot more fuel - you think a young guy is going to fill the tank with premium 3 times a day? Really?!

So the probability is supercharging + regular fuel = engine damage.

[cjm41]

^^^ what on earth are you rambling about. Good friggin' lord. Lay off the Red Bull, dude.

Maybe like 4% of member's cars have been supercharged.

The rest was borderline incoherent, so I'm moving on.

[LuckiSevens]

Best advice for the OP

1 buy cash private deal
2 pref from someone with a few cars, DD + M3 weekend car situation.
3 pref someone older - age of seller will reduce risk of previous engine mods by idiots who know nothing.
5 buy a manual, for a proper driving experience, and to learn how to drive properly - staying in the power band is easy if you know how to drive an MT properly, you don't need DCT for that. It will also reduce your risk of costly trans repairs. The only reason people buy DCT is for a leisurely auto driving experience.
6 avoid anything with aftermarket bearings fitted.

[cjm41]

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

Your bullshit post ain't going unanswered. Runs away lmao.

Okay, I'll play.

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

3. "This car was designed for DCT" - no 'DCT was designed for lower skill drivers who can't handle a MT properly'.

Developed in conjunction with Getrag, and available as a $2700 option, BMW's new seven-speed dual-clutch transmission (DCT) is the gearbox the M3 was designed for -- the missing link between the screaming 4.0L V-8 under the hood and the almost preternaturally alert and agile M-tuned chassis.

Source: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/...t-first-drive/

Do you hate interruptions? So does BMW when it comes to the flow of power. Its solution is to fit the impressive 414-bhp M3 with a 7-speed M-DCT (M for Motorsport, DCT for Dual-Clutch Transmission), a gearbox where the ratio is preselected before the power is applied by alternately engaging/disengaging two wet clutches.

Source: https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...pe-with-m-dct/

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

4. "You think people put regular unleaded in these cars? Really?" Yeah, for the same reason they do all of their own repairs, a lot of owners are younger guys. Again, you have no way to back up your opinion either way but the facts suggest I'm correct. The engine isn't tuned for regular so it will not run as designed - now, if it's supercharged you're going to burn a lot more fuel - you think a young guy is going to fill the tank with premium 3 times a day? Really?!

Filling your tank 3 times a day would require driving approximately 170,000 miles per year. Using that statistic at 3x per day, 5x per week puts even a 2013 M3 at over a million miles. Obviously this is an exaggeration, but the point here is to call your credibility into question.

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

1. So you're saying BMW M engineering aren't as good as - who? You don't even know if there's a real problem - The only way to prove it is to produce failure stats from verified non-modified cars...

Who's talking about modified cars. There are plenty of threads here covering RB failure on unmodified cars with as low as 6700 miles. I don't need to prove anything, it's been done. It's here, on this very forum.

I'm sure BMW engineers are good. I'm saying just because BMW didn't test it, doesn't mean the parts should be discredited.

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

"urgh urgh urgh"

Cool story

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

you don't have that information. y'all are supercharging a car that isn't designed for for supercharging, any experienced mechanic would agree that supercharging/turbo'ing creates additional wear on the engine components.

Yes. Superchargers will wear an engines internals faster. And mechanics would agree. Glad we agree here.

But who is "y'all" most members here do not have supercharged M3s.

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

Like I say, all the statements on here are about 'numpty says his bearings are worn and they would have failed if he didn't change them' are non-scientific, non-professional opinions, and always 'non-failure' stories.

As opposed to your scientific professional opinion? See where I'm going with this? As mentioned, not changing your bearings is a risk. There is no guarantee you'll spin a bearing. Evidence shows that a non-wear item is wearing and there are reports of the bearings failing. This is not opinion. Reasons like this is, in part, why communities like this exist.

In fact, there is a class action lawsuit against BMW about it.

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-...ngine-failure/

https://www.classaction.org/news/all...-action-claims

https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2...w-jersey.shtml

https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2...ismissed.shtml

https://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/comment...oving_forward/

As it turns out, lawyers don't spend time and resources filing class action lawsuits if there isn't merit.

But I digress

[SAMM3Y]

Problem is 6mt's are tougher to find and typically demand a premium but they're out there. My car is on OG rb's rn and has 82k on it. I am changing them this week though for sc prep. I think some engines were better than others from the M factory, some people seemed to have tolerances stacked up against them and suffer from premature wear whilst others seem to be holding up a bit better. I wonder if it'll ever get to a point where having og bearings on a high mileage S65 will be considered a badge of honor? I do think changing them on higher mileage vehicles that are driven hard is a smart thing to do cuz if it comes a knocking it's typically too late unless you catch it right away with a trained ear. Then it's gonna cost you $8k to fix it.

[LuckiSevens]

Originally Posted by cjm41

Okay, I'll play.

Developed in conjunction with Getrag, and available as a $2700 option, BMW's new seven-speed dual-clutch transmission (DCT) is the gearbox the M3 was designed for -- the missing link between the screaming 4.0L V-8 under the hood and the almost preternaturally alert and agile M-tuned chassis.

Source: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/...t-first-drive/

Do you hate interruptions? So does BMW when it comes to the flow of power. Its solution is to fit the impressive 414-bhp M3 with a 7-speed M-DCT (M for Motorsport, DCT for Dual-Clutch Transmission), a gearbox where the ratio is preselected before the power is applied by alternately engaging/disengaging two wet clutches.

Source: https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...pe-with-m-dct/

Filling your tank 3 times a day would require driving approximately 170,000 miles per year. Using that statistic at 3x per day, 5x per week puts even a 2013 M3 at over a million miles. Obviously this is an exaggeration, but the point here is to call your credibility into question.

Who's talking about modified cars. There are plenty of threads here covering RB failure on unmodified cars with as low as 6700 miles. I don't need to prove anything, it's been done. It's here, on this very forum.

I'm sure BMW engineers are good. I'm saying just because BMW didn't test it, doesn't mean the parts should be discredited.

Cool story

Yes. Superchargers will wear an engines internals faster. And mechanics would agree. Glad we agree here.

But who is "y'all" most members here do not have supercharged M3s.

As opposed to your scientific professional opinion? See where I'm going with this? As mentioned, not changing your bearings is a risk. There is no guarantee you'll spin a bearing. Evidence shows that a non-wear item is wearing and there are reports of the bearings failing. This is not opinion. Reasons like this is, in part, why communities like this exist.

In fact, there is a class action lawsuit against BMW about it.

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-...ngine-failure/

https://www.classaction.org/news/all...-action-claims

https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2...w-jersey.shtml

https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2...ismissed.shtml

https://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/comment...oving_forward/

As it turns out, lawyers don't spend time and resources filing class action lawsuits if there isn't merit.

But I digress

'supercharged + regular fuel' results in much lower fuel economy so your calculation will be wrong - they're probably getting 6 miles to the gallon

[cjm41]

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

'supercharged + regular fuel' results in much lower fuel economy so your calculation will be wrong - they're probably getting 6 miles to the gallon

This was the least important part of my response. But I'll continue playing along with your absurdly adjusted number just to show you how ridiculous you're being:

15.9 gallon tank x 6 miles to the gallon = 95.4 miles per tank.

3 fill-ups per day = 286.2 miles driven per day

286.2 miles per day x 5 days per week is 1,431 miles per week

1,431 miles per week x 52 weeks = 74,412 miles per year

I know lil' buddy, maths is hard.

Find me someone driving a supercharged M3 75k miles per year and i'll eat a turd, live streamed on youtube.

Come on, man. Don't change your rod bearings, do change them, nobody here cares. But don't come around spreading bad info and expect that nobody will call you out.

[Ab28]

Originally Posted by FitzgJ74

Best advice for the OP

1 buy cash private deal
2 pref from someone with a few cars, DD + M3 weekend car situation.
3 pref someone older - age of seller will reduce risk of previous engine mods by idiots who know nothing.
5 buy a manual, for a proper driving experience, and to learn how to drive properly - staying in the power band is easy if you know how to drive an MT properly, you don't need DCT for that. It will also reduce your risk of costly trans repairs. The only reason people buy DCT is for a leisurely auto driving experience.
6 avoid anything with aftermarket bearings fitted.

You need to stop providing what you think is advice.

Stating that a car with aftermarket bearings is something to avoid is simply unbelievable. My last E9x sold to the buyer BECAUSE the bearings were changed.

BMW has a history of producing cars with RB problems. The E46 had a factory recall. All you have to do is look at the threads where shops are removing factory bearings. Unless there is an inherent problem bearings do not wear. They should not touch the crank. This is also why they do not require to be broken in.

These aftermarket companies are testing parts well beyond what BMW did.

How do you explain something like this:

[roastbeef]

I don't think I've ever seen somebody so adamant about these cars not having a rod bearing problem. No need to fuss about it, keep your bearings if you want.

[SAMM3Y]

Back to OP's questions.. the most annoying thing about these cars is the poor gas consumption which I think we can all agree on, oil changes don't bother me they're few and far between and about $110 if you do it yourself. Tires you can work around if your not an "amateur race car driver". parts are expensive but all things German are expensive, trust me I work for a German company, the rule of thumb is think about what it should cost and triple it. It's also quality for the most part, if I work on my car and then work on a buddies mustang or something, I'm like what a piece of shit. The good news is there's ton of them and tons of aftermarket and tons of used parts out there. And consider insurance. I'm 35 with a clean record with 4 vehicles on a policy and the insurance is still $140/month for me. Nothing wrong with working hard for something you really want. I've got respect for that.

[Law]

Gentlemen, let's try to stay on topic and refrain from verbal/personal insults.

The rod bearing issue is well-documented on this forum with a lot of independent research and information available.
Everything from stories of premature engine failures to stories of stock bearings reaching 100k+ miles have been recorded.
It's important for anyone, including the OP, getting into the E9x M3 and the S65 to thoroughly come to an independent decision.

I suggest the OP to thoroughly research the issue and determine if the risk (perceived or real) is something that is worth addressing prematurely.
If so, then it is definitely smart to set aside some money for this preventative maintenance item should the car purchased not already have it done.
This, of course, does not include funds for other things that may or may not go bad (i.e., throttle actuators, etc.).

With that said, I personally have had the rod bearing service done on my own M3, and while there is a general forum-wide consensus on the rod bearing issue at this stage, understand [with an open mind] that it remains controversial (i.e., dissent, skeptics, and indifference exist) and we are still not quite there as far as the "cold hard truth" on solutions and whether or not the risk is conflated.
We are still some years away from seeing more higher mileage S65s with all the different types of swapped bearings (WPC, VAC, etc.) and bolts and how they compare with stock, non-WPC ones.
Admittedly, there's still a significant degree of uncertainty regardless of what side of the debate one sits on.
Whether there are other factors involved (i.e., main bearings, climate, driving style, oil viscosity) is still undetermined.

On the flip side, those skeptical of the rod bearing issue should also keep an open mind that those performing the service for the sake of preventative maintenance/insurance are doing so for peace of mind, where $2,000, for example, is a much smaller expense to incur vs. a $10,000+ bill for a new engine.

With that said, please keep in mind the forum rules, stay on topic, and engage in civil discourse.

Thanks