Track forum general chit chat.

[WhiteM3EMC]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Barney

I need to be better at this if I'm honest. I try hard to stay predictable and out of the way of those that are faster than I am but most of the time I'm trying to get people out of my way and can be too aggressive. Have to remember it's just a track day and not a race. I could just as easily pull in to create space to avoid the risks.

Definitely something that I think most of us could work on. Also hard to make decisions based on sound logic when you have tons of adrenaline flowing and you're irritated because you haven't been able to get a point by from someone who's slowing you down.

At a past track day, I made a frankly dangerous pass on 2 Miatas going into the Esses at Road Atlanta. Certainly way too aggressive for an HPDE event, and I could've easily waited another 15 seconds to pass them safely coming out of Turn 5. The second I finished the pass, I felt terrible. As soon as the session was over, I followed them to their paddock spot and apologized. They were cool with it, but certainly too aggressive for HPDE.

[Ngilbe36]

Originally Posted by WhiteM3EMC

Definitely something that I think most of us could work on. Also hard to make decisions based on sound logic when you have tons of adrenaline flowing and you're irritated because you haven't been able to get a point by from someone who's slowing you down.

At a past track day, I made a frankly dangerous pass on 2 Miatas going into the Esses at Road Atlanta. Certainly way too aggressive for an HPDE event, and I could've easily waited another 15 seconds to pass them safely coming out of Turn 5. The second I finished the pass, I felt terrible. As soon as the session was over, I followed them to their paddock spot and apologized. They were cool with it, but certainly too aggressive for HPDE.

Not enough of this in the world today. Nicely done fellow human.

[//steve\\]

Originally Posted by WhiteM3EMC

Definitely something that I think most of us could work on. Also hard to make decisions based on sound logic when you have tons of adrenaline flowing and you're irritated because you haven't been able to get a point by from someone who's slowing you down.

At a past track day, I made a frankly dangerous pass on 2 Miatas going into the Esses at Road Atlanta. Certainly way too aggressive for an HPDE event, and I could've easily waited another 15 seconds to pass them safely coming out of Turn 5. The second I finished the pass, I felt terrible. As soon as the session was over, I followed them to their paddock spot and apologized. They were cool with it, but certainly too aggressive for HPDE.

Good on you

It can be frustrating to get stuck behind someone you're clearly faster than when you know it takes 3 seconds for them to slow up just a little and let you pass. On the same token it's just as easy to slow way up and sacrifice a lap to create enough space so that hopefully you're not right on top of them again.

[WhiteM3EMC]

Originally Posted by //steve\\

Good on you

It can be frustrating to get stuck behind someone you're clearly faster than when you know it takes 3 seconds for them to slow up just a little and let you pass. On the same token it's just as easy to slow way up and sacrifice a lap to create enough space so that hopefully you're not right on top of them again.

Yeah. That's the typical tactic I employ now. I grid up front or behind a few cars who I know will be faster than me, get some good clean laps, then, when I catch up to the back of the field, I just run a little cooldown lap and re-spot my lines while going slower, then once I've created space, run another few fast laps.

[//steve\\]

Originally Posted by WhiteM3EMC

Yeah. That's the typical tactic I employ now. I grid up front or behind a few cars who I know will be faster than me, get some good clean laps, then, when I catch up to the back of the field, I just run a little cooldown lap and re-spot my lines while going slower, then once I've created space, run another few fast laps.

I also think that sometimes these slower people in front don't actually realize they are holding you up as much as they really are. You're maintaining a safe distance behind them and that in a way says to them they are keeping a manageable pace ahead of you. Like a few others have said, I think until you get uncomfortably close to them they won't actually realize they are really slowing you down.

You know though, some of us are just chasing that HDPE championship though....

[WhiteM3EMC]

Originally Posted by //steve\\

I also think that sometimes these slower people in front don't actually realize they are holding you up as much as they really are. You're maintaining a safe distance behind them and that in a way says to them they are keeping a manageable pace ahead of you. Like a few others have said, I think until you get uncomfortably close to them they won't actually realize they are really slowing you down.

You know though, some of us are just chasing that HDPE championship though....

Oh I completely agree. I find it very fun to pass people in the open passing groups. It's really not much of a concern anymore now that I can pass at my leisure, but I absolutely used to employ the "terror tactics" when I had to get a point by. I'd get uncomfortably close to them and weave back and forth in their rearview mirror to let them know I wanted by.

Because you're totally right, if the car in front of you thinks that you're running the same pace as them, and you only get close to them in certain corners or on the straights, they may think that you're not actually faster than them.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by WhiteM3EMC

Oh I completely agree. I find it very fun to pass people in the open passing groups. It's really not much of a concern anymore now that I can pass at my leisure, but I absolutely used to employ the "terror tactics" when I had to get a point by. I'd get uncomfortably close to them and weave back and forth in their rearview mirror to let them know I wanted by.

Because you're totally right, if the car in front of you thinks that you're running the same pace as them, and you only get close to them in certain corners or on the straights, they may think that you're not actually faster than them.

When are you jumping to TT?

[WhiteM3EMC]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

When are you jumping to TT?

I was planning to get signed off at the April Roebling event, but obviously that didn't happen. So I'll try to make that happen along with the instructor clinic in July.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by WhiteM3EMC

Because you're totally right, if the car in front of you thinks that you're running the same pace as them, and you only get close to them in certain corners or on the straights, they may think that you're not actually faster than them.

Prime example from this past weekend. BRZ vs Corvette on a track that favors hp. You can tell the Corvette driver definitely thinks they’re faster when they pull away in the straights. Ending around the 2min mark of the video could’ve been much worse...

[WhiteM3EMC]

Originally Posted by Kelse92

Prime example from this past weekend. BRZ vs Corvette on a track that favors hp. You can tell the Corvette driver definitely thinks they’re faster when they pull away in the straights. Ending could’ve been much worse...

I don't really know why this is, but in my limited experience, Corvette drivers are HANDS DOWN the worst participants in a DE event that requires point by's. I observe them to continually run slower than most other cars in the field, and their straight line power causes them to think that they're not holding anyone up.

It is very common for my buddies and I to see 5-6 cars lined up behind a Corvette that will not give point by's.

While I haven't talked to any of these drivers, I have reasoned that it's because these older owners are very amateur in the DE world, and cannot possibly fathom that someone is driving XXX car faster than their garage queen C7 Corvette.

I've observed this behavior from a C7 Z06 driver as well, first hand, when he would pull the shit out of me on the straight, but the entire back half of the track I was in his ass trying to get the point by (I was in my Charger at the time)

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by WhiteM3EMC

I don't really know why this is, but in my limited experience, Corvette drivers are HANDS DOWN the worst participants in a DE event that requires point by's. I observe them to continually run slower than most other cars in the field, and their straight line power causes them to think that they're not holding anyone up.

It is very common for my buddies and I to see 5-6 cars lined up behind a Corvette that will not give point by's.

While I haven't talked to any of these drivers, I have reasoned that it's because these older owners are very amateur in the DE world, and cannot possibly fathom that someone is driving XXX car faster than their garage queen C7 Corvette.

I've observed this behavior from a C7 Z06 driver as well, first hand, when he would pull the shit out of me on the straight, but the entire back half of the track I was in his ass trying to get the point by (I was in my Charger at the time)

Corvette drivers have very tiny T-Rex arms making it difficult for you to see their point bys.

[dparm]

Yeah that Corvette driver is in the wrong run group. Line is horrible and overslowing for every corner. I would've talked to the stewards/chief instructor afterwards. The point-by was straight-up dangerous. You don't jam on the brakes when you're on the racing line and then throw your hand out the window.

Guy was a stooge and should've been reprimanded.

[WhiteM3EMC]

Originally Posted by dparm

Yeah that Corvette driver is in the wrong run group. Line is horrible and overslowing for every corner. I would've talked to the stewards/chief instructor afterwards. The point-by was straight-up dangerous. You don't jam on the brakes when you're on the racing line and then throw your hand out the window.

Guy was a stooge and should've been reprimanded.

Stooge is a word I'd like to see more use out of in these times. Great word choice.

I'd love to watch the video but our system admins cut off YouTube access to free up bandwidth for teleworking folks. So, probably never getting YouTube back

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by dparm

Yeah that Corvette driver is in the wrong run group. Line is horrible and overslowing for every corner. I would've talked to the stewards/chief instructor afterwards. The point-by was straight-up dangerous. You don't jam on the brakes when you're on the racing line and then throw your hand out the window.

Guy was a stooge and should've been reprimanded.

More background, this is SCCA's version of a Time Trial. Run groups were arbitrary self-reported experience. Novice was pass with point, straightaways only. Intermediate pass with point anywhere. Advanced, no points needed on straightaways point-by in corners.
This was the intermediate group.
In the advanced group there were people running as fast a 2:05's and as slow as 2:30's... not a great setup for a 5 lap TimeAttack session.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Kelse92

More background, this is SCCA's version of a Time Trial. Run groups were arbitrary self-reported experience. Novice was pass with point, straightaways only. Intermediate pass with point anywhere. Advanced, no points needed on straightaways point-by in corners.
This was the intermediate group.
In the advanced group there were people running as fast a 2:05's and as slow as 2:30's... not a great setup for a 5 lap TimeAttack session.

This is why I was told not to bother with SCCA TT. It's new and not a well-oiled machine like NASA's is.

NASA won't let you run in TT until you've demonstrated proficiency in HPDE4 which is open passing, then you have to get a check-ride. Everyone runs together in one group, but you are gridded by lap time/qualifying. You simply don't have people running right behind you with a massively faster car. The only times I pass people are when they slow down due to mechanical problems, or because they want some space to try for a flying lap.

The fact that SCCA has different skill levels for TT means it is a very different activity.

[MaximusB]

Would you guys recommend changing the throttle actuators as a precaution for track days? Reason I'm asking is the nearest track to me is a 3.5 hrs and change drive away, one-way, and it is pretty damn expensive ($550cdn) for the day. I don't wanna risk having my TAs go out on me near or during track day. Also it is unlikely the local dealers will have them in stock as most items are shipping from out East.

My car have 68,000km on it at the moment and I have 2 track days coming up in July. Back to back days. I just swapped in new pads, brake fluids and oil change. So those items are good to go.

What do you guys think? Just enjoy it or change the TAs to be sure (or have a set of TAs on hand)?

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by MaximusB

Would you guys recommend changing the throttle actuators as a precaution for track days? Reason I'm asking is the nearest track to me is a 3.5 hrs and change drive away, one-way, and it is pretty damn expensive ($550cdn) for the day. I don't wanna risk having my TAs go out on me near or during track day. Also it is unlikely the local dealers will have them in stock as most items are shipping from out East.

My car have 68,000km on it at the moment and I have 2 track days coming up in July. Back to back days. I just swapped in new pads, brake fluids and oil change. So those items are good to go.

What do you guys think? Just enjoy it or change the TAs to be sure (or have a set of TAs on hand)?

If they're not causing limp mode and you don't plan on replacing them very soon, I wouldn't bother. Even as they're failing, it should be an intermittent limp mode that can be cleared up.

[kyippee]

Agreed, when mine started failing it was intermittent limp mode. Car still drove.

[Richbot]

This is an easy problem to solve at a track day driver's meeting. If there is a car closer than 4-5 lengths behind you, at any point on the track, it's probably faster than you unless you just passed it. Let it by for a lap and see if it's true. Any behavior to the contrary means you miss the next session while we talk about etiquette. Run video if you want to defend my decisions to bench you.

No organizer wants to be the bad guy, I get that, but frustration around pointbys and cars that handle well on the straights has killed a lot of cars.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Richbot

This is an easy problem to solve at a track day driver's meeting. If there is a car closer than 4-5 lengths behind you, at any point on the track, it's probably faster than you unless you just passed it. Let it by for a lap and see if it's true. Any behavior to the contrary means you miss the next session while we talk about etiquette. Run video if you want to defend my decisions to bench you.

No organizer wants to be the bad guy, I get that, but frustration around pointbys and cars that handle well on the straights has killed a lot of cars.

I want to go to a trackday organized by you

[MaximusB]

With my track group, the Organizer do a quick 5 minute debrief with the group after every session. Any issues such as track condition, point by etiquette and etc are discussed. We're can voice our concerns with the group during the debrief or talk privately with the Organizer after the debrief. But the idea is the Organizer have no problem being the bad guy to address poor etiquette with people. Everyone gets 1 warning then we'll have to sit out a session. People usually smarten up once they get called out in debrief.

I personally find the debriefs very helpful. So far I've done 3 track days with this group and never encounter heated argument in the debrief sessions. Once you're done your session, just park your car and make your way to Organizer tent. The Organizers asks the group if there were any issues with the track that the cornering staff might have missed. Any issues with the traffic, point bys and etc. If everyone is good, the debrief ends.

[Bartledoo]

I've found that just talking to the person(s) usually works, as long as you don't go at them all heated right off the bat. Obviously there are sometimes jerks that don't want to hear it.