Slow car fast, Fast car slow?

[slcook54]

Is the E92 M3 a good first track car?

I live in San Francisco and was planning to start heavily tracking my E92 M3 at Laguna Seca. I have a karting background and am most interested of developing as a driver, how do I become a better driver in the least amount of time.

After seeing the video below by Robert Mitchell, it made me question if the E92 was right starting platform for this hobby. After doing some more research, I saw that fast Spec e46's were doing 1:41's at Laguna Seca, which isn't far off the average E92 M3 driver. I know fsmtnbiker is in the 1:36's and dogbone is in the 1:34's, but these are two drivers with setup cars and a lot of hours under their belts.

My thinking is, I can pick-up an e46 330i for $5K, dump $10-20K into it, get a lot of track time, hire a coach, and ultimately develop faster as a driver, and probably wouldn't insure it (challenge me here), than starting with the E92 M3.

Thoughts? Not trying to drive a Miata, would like to stick with a BMW.

[b4hand]

I think that is a good approach to it. I was considering doing the same. I think it depends on what you want to accomplish. If you want to eventually drive at a pro level, then starting cheap and getting in a cheap series is key.

[roastbeef]

If you're small enough for it, you'll have just as much fun in a Miata.
So pick whichever flavor you like. I drive the m3 because of the way it makes me feel.

[DL335D]

^ 100% I tracked an NA Miata for almost 5 years and loved every minute of it. Tires are super cheap too. I actually had more fun on the track with the Miata than my f80 ZCP.

[slcook54]

Sorry guys, I should have specified, I've only driven BMW's for the last 15 years, mostly behind the wheel of a turbocharged E36 M3 at 500rwhp. I would never buy a Miata, not knocking it, I just prefer to stick within the BMW platform given that costs for an E46 are fairly equal?

[Redd]

Wait for Robert's video on best first track car this week. He's gonna recommend the GT86/BRZ.

[slcook54]

Originally Posted by Redd

Wait for Robert's video on best first track car this week. He's gonna recommend the GT86/BRZ.

Yep, or Yaris GR.

[DRLane]

Given your carting plus e36 experience you'll quickly over work the stock car, and thus require at least some light modifications to keep pressing forward.

So if you're cool with that, then do it. The s65 belongs on the track. I say do it 100%!

[OG Shark]

Absolutely the E9x M3 can be an excellent first track car. Yes it has power - but it is a user friendly torque curve that lends itself to being easier to learn how to manage (keep the power button off). The car handles very well stock and offers friendly breakaway and recovery characteristics. It also can facilitate a quick transition to all nannies off which I believe is key to the rate of a driver’s progression.

Financially- it is hard to say which is better in the long run. Going to depend on how fast you progress and if you decide to upgrade when you hit points where the car is holding you back. Insurance - again that is a personal choice depending on your level of risk tolerance.

Camber plates, minor brake upgrades, and a decent tire like a Dunlop direzza is all you need to learn and progress for quite awhile. And another thing that really makes this car a good starting point is how much fun it is to track. The sound, the driving experience, these kind of things make the experience so much more enjoyable that you just want to keep coming back as much as possible.

That being said - it’s all about the driver’s mindset - that is always going to be the most important factor in progression. The car is a tool - you have to make it work correctly for you to get the results that you want.

[slcook54]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Absolutely the E9x M3 can be an excellent first track car. Yes it has power - but it is a user friendly torque curve that lends itself to being easier to learn how to manage (keep the power button off). The car handles very well stock and offers friendly breakaway and recovery characteristics. It also can facilitate a quick transition to all nannies off which I believe is key to the rate of a driver’s progression.

Financially- it is hard to say which is better in the long run. Going to depend on how fast you progress and if you decide to upgrade when you hit points where the car is holding you back. Insurance - again that is a personal choice depending on your level of risk tolerance.

Camber plates, minor brake upgrades, and a decent tire like a Dunlop direzza is all you need to learn and progress for quite awhile. And another thing that really makes this car a good starting point is how much fun it is to track. The sound, the driving experience, these kind of things make the experience so much more enjoyable that you just want to keep coming back as much as possible.

That being said - it’s all about the driver’s mindset - that is always going to be the most important factor in progression. The car is a tool - you have to make it work correctly for you to get the results that you want.

trying to avoid confirmation bias, but basically the answer I was looking for, thank you. Following your build, love it.

[roastbeef]

Ok yes, you're not going to notice a difference in costs between an e46 and e92. They are both pay to play cars.

[tsk94]

E92 > E46 > E36. Had all three (M3's, also including E30 actually). E92 is by far the best of all of them, stock and modified. Tires, brake pads, fluid and maybe camber plates and you'll have a capable, forgiving and fun chassis to learn and progress with.

[dogbone]

Obvious Comment Alert! —— I believe the E92 M3 would be an excellent first track car, especially now that the platform is fairly inexpensive. I think OG Shark’s comments were excellent.

To add a couple thoughts:
-the E9x M3 was made to hit the track. The parts/infrastructure of the OEM car are very very reliable. Things like control arms, subframes, fuel and water pumps, steering racks—-all good. All these years in and I’m still on a lot of original parts. I’m totally willing to replace them, but I’m being told they’re all still fine. Hell, even the rear axles are still original!—after 9 years on track, being supercharged and upwards of 200 track days!!

-it’s a low torque car, with a flat torque curve. This means the power delivery is very predictable. Good for tracking. Even if you supercharge, the torque curve stays flat. It simply feels like a bigger NA engine.

-In my opinion, the weakest part of the stock car on track is the brakes. Easily remedied. In fact, I know of an excellent AP Racing kit that is coming up for sale soon.

-it responds well to mods. Not a ton of people have driven my car, but everyone who has driven it remarks how easy it is to drive. Basically, I modded the crap out of it, but it didn’t turn into an unwieldy monster.

-the traction control system is sophisticated enough to keep a novice driver out of trouble in most situations while still being driveable. It’s easy to turn off when you feel it’s time to graduate from it.

-in my opinion, to this day, the car is very pleasing to the eyes and ears. I constantly get strangers walking up to me at time attack events commenting on the sound of the car. “Dude, your car sounds bad ass.” I get that comment ALL THE TIME. Anyway, I still love the look of the car.

-If you’re not wanting a manual, the E9x M3 DCT is superior to the previous SMG.

-the E9x M3 is one of the best examples of a car that can be modded to have fun at the track but still be driven on the street as a daily practical car.

-Great community of E9x M3 drivers. I’m proud to be a member of this forum with the people that are on it. I have met in-person quite a few people that I have gotten to know on the forum and I am happy to call them friends.

-it’s not the lightest thing in the world. If you’re a karting guy and you need the lightest and most nimble thing, then this is not your platform. It takes a shit ton of work and money to get this platform under 3000 lbs. To get under 3000 lbs would be considered an extreme build—especially if the car has a cage.

-I don’t insure mine. If something happens, it’s all paid for. I just hope that all the safety features do what they’re supposed to do and sort out the rest later.

[atopa2002]

Run what you brung and hope you brought enough

[rhyary]

Not sure if this would help but here I go:

I am a car guy from 3 years old.
I had a 91 325ix and I loved it.
I had a 1995 Euro E34 M5 and loved it.
I had an E46 330i sport and never connected with it.
I test drove E46 M3 number of times and was never able to connect.
I test drove 2013 E92 M3 and that was it, was not interested in anything else.
I started to go to trackdays and Couldn't stop.
The minute I finish a trackday, I count the minutes for the next one.
At NYST, on a rainy day they open the track and I drove 120 laps in the rain until I ran out of gas.

To me, I want to be the best driver I can be in a car I love to be in. And I can't separate loving to drive from what I am driving.

My recommendation, get something you love to drive, then develop to be best driver you can be.

This is a hobby, you need to love doing it, In my opinion, you don't want to spend all the time and money in a car you don't love.

my .02 cents

[Manettino]

Hey man, I also live in SF and plan to start heavily tracking the M3 this year (1-2 times a month), so if you ever want to go to Laguna together, let me know. I'm planning on Speed Ventures in March and something in Feb once they release dates.

I came from a BRZ, so let me give you my perspective. It's far easier to learn (IMO) on a slow car because the limits and power levels are so much lower. It was dirt cheap to run, but I had a couple of things fail on me and the stock tires are not at all up to the task of tracking, you have to switch to PS4S or a stickier tire.

However, after my first track day in the M3, I will say that I probably have the same problem a lot of other people who jump into a much heavier, more capable platform have. Namely, I had to think much more about braking points, where I'm turning in, and where to put down the power. I don't think the learning curve will be that much different for you jumping straight into the M3. It's a super forgiving chassis and will help you learn every step of the way.

I'm by no means a good driver, but I think it's fine that your first track car is the M3, the limits are just a little higher. It's also a platform where you can learn what the weak points of the car are, and improve along with the car. It's something you can grow into. A slower car you will start topping out fairly quickly and possibly want for more even though you're now 20k deep into the project. 20k deep into the M3, and you'll have a VERY quick car.

[rhyary]

Any concerns about the M3 power can be mitigated by simply run it in higher gears and you have less powerful car to learn on.

Have you tried to accelerate in 6th gear coming out of 40mph turn? no power, no worries.

[Cyberdemon]

There's no right or wrong answer, like others have mentioned you have to be getting a fun per dollar ratio that makes you happy.

Before I read the whole post my immediate comment was going to be "Get an E36 track rat" because the E46 market is just so inflated. But since you said you spent many years in a high horsepower E36 if you don't think that would make you happy then the E9x seems like a fine choice.

If I were to do a lot of events (and had the luxury of storing a second car) I would probably pick an E36 only because I'm a lot more anal about my E90. Fear of putting it into the tires would keep me from pushing harder faster, and thats always the benefit of the slower car. You can get to 10/10ths and realize you've run out of car before you've run out of skill, and banging out the panels with a hammer afterwards doesn't seem as gut wrenching.

[Bartledoo]

If you've got the cash, E9X (E90 for ability to easily carry track wheels after you inevitably install fixed back seats and a roll bar) M3 all day. Not insanely quick stock, but very easy to drive and to also to make much faster. Probably not any more difficult to learn on than a Miata.

[911r]

I would say the best track car is the one you have, and that could be applied to pretty much anyone. I've seen people go out to the track in their stock MK5 Golf and have a blast. As for spending $20+k on an E46 to develop your driving skills, it just doesn't seem practical.

It's perhaps worth considering keeping your E92 fairly stock, do a track day, see what needs improvement, and modify accordingly—instead of going balls out with mods right off the bat. This way your car becomes more competent alongside your driving skills.

As others have said, having owned an E36, E46, and now an E90 M3, thus far the E90 has been the most predictable to drive, most comfortable, and my all around favorite.

[admranger]

Hire a coach is the best bang for your the buck.

Cars I’ve tracked a lot in my life: E30 325is (street and race car form), E34 525i (surprising quick for what was a big car at the time), E36M3 (street and race form), E46M3, E90M3.

Starting with slower cars helped me learn things without poo coming out when I screwed up. Consumables are cheap on slower cars. BRZ has a decent aftermarket but...

If you choose to get another car, buy a used race car if you have a way to get it to the track. Pennies on the $ compared to building yourself.

[fsmtnbiker]

I find that having a good group of friends/competitors at the track makes *any* platform fun. In the Bay Area the 86 challenge is huge and very well attended. If I’d had the space while I lived there I would have bought an frs/brz for sure.

The E92 is a great platform for a 1-car solution. Great on the street, good power, capable on track... but it’s heavy. Consumables cost a significant amount more than a lighter/slower car and you’ll arguably have more fun chucking the slow car around fearlessly.

I prefer my E36 to the E92. Mainly for the weight. But the E92 runs and the E36 currently doesn’t so... here we are. Both have their merits. I personally wouldn’t build an E46 because I think the M54 is hot garbage.