Leaving the M3..RS5 or Cayman S?

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by DevJ

Car has a ton of options, sticker is ~85k got about 6% off. Hopefully will have it by Saturday depending on my schedule!

Here are some pictures:

Ohhh I love this car, looks so much better then the first model of Cayman, congrats!!!

[hellrotm]

White Cayman S looks fantastic.

Great car!

[W///]

Congrats on the new car, I think it's a great choice. I got a chance to drive the base Boxster and even that impressed me. Just the way that car handles more than makes up for the loss of power vs the M3. IMHO, the Cayman S would be the perfect companion to my M3. Just a little too rich for me, I'll wait until used prices come way down.

Here's my short review:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857364

[Race_Doc11]

I knew you will go for the Cayman. Awesome car congratulations!

[ki__]

Cayman S looks awesome! Can't wait to hear your opinion between the BMW and Porsche

[i001947]

Congrats!

[DevJ]

Thanks guys! i will post up a thread whenever I pick it up in a couple of days

[positiveions]

Originally Posted by DevJ

Car has a ton of options, sticker is ~85k got about 6% off. Hopefully will have it by Saturday depending on my schedule!

Congrats! looks beautiful.

[signes]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

How much better do its capabilities need to be before it's not a disappointment?

As it sits, it's a bit quicker in a quarter mile, quicker around a road course, better in the wet, gets better mileage, sounds better, subjectively looks better, has a better interior and is a genuine four-season car if equipped with all-season sneakers (or snows).

Seriously, the M3 is a terrific car, and has been a benchmark for years - but the Audi more than holds its own in everything except steering feel.

Both these cars are winners, with the Audi edging out the previous benchmark.

Bruce

PS - as for the Porsche, if your religion involves track days and early Sunday morning frivolities, the Cayman is clearly the beast to own. Otherwise, the Audi is a much more well-rounded car, especially for everyday use.

They are both winners, but actually being a fan of Audi RS cars I was expecting more. Maybe that is unfair but I felt the B7 RS4 offered "more" in relative terms: more of a gap in performance terms to the E46 M3, looked mean, sounded better, etc.

Regarding your litany above (and comments of others), it isn't the case that it is quicker in the 1/4 or around a road course. Many tests have the M3 faster or equal, though in some it loses. So that is a draw. In the M3's favor, it is much lighter (over 300lbs!), handles better/better weight distribution (the latter by a wide margin), offers a manual transmission (matters a lot to me), costs less (my view when comparably equipped), has more aftermarket modding options (not huge but nice to have), ...

My last post on this matter because 1) I actually like the RS5 a lot , was only disputing an over the top comment, 2) getting way OT and 3) the horse is dead...

DevJ, congrats on the new car!

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by signes

They are both winners, but actually being a fan of Audi RS cars I was expecting more. Maybe that is unfair but I felt the B7 RS4 offered "more" in relative terms: more of a gap in performance terms to the E46 M3, looked mean, sounded better, etc.

Regarding your litany above (and comments of others), it isn't the case that it is quicker in the 1/4 or around a road course. Many tests have the M3 faster or equal, though in some it loses. So that is a draw. In the M3's favor, it is much lighter (over 300lbs!), handles better/better weight distribution (the latter by a wide margin), offers a manual transmission (matters a lot to me), costs less (my view when comparably equipped), has more aftermarket modding options (not huge but nice to have), ...

FastestLaps.com shows the Audi to be quicker on 13 out of 16 tracks, plus there's the film shown in these very pages where the Fifth Gear guys hammer around some track, and the Audi is quicker by a small margin.

Quickest Amerispec RS5 in the quarter is Road & Track's car, turning 12.2. Quickest Amerispec M3 goes 12.4 according to Car & Driver.

Agree with some of your other points, although weight by itself is immaterial, as is weight distribution (think Porsche).

Handles better? The bimmer has better power-to-weight figures, yet the Audi is quicker on road courses, by and large.

I admit (and have declared) that the M3 has better steering overall. That's attributed largely to the Audi's AWD penalty in that department. So what, though. The bimmer is better in that regard, period.

Bruce

[F1Venom]

Whoa! That white spec with the 20" Turbo wheels looks amazing! Congrats and post more pics/a review when you get her!

[F1Venom]

For ~$90k though, I would've got a 997.1 Turbo. but these Caymans are amazing.
This one is pretty stunning but you were looking for a newer car.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...e5be8b&vxp=mtr

[mlambert890]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

FastestLaps.com shows the Audi to be quicker on 13 out of 16 tracks, plus there's the film shown in these very pages where the Fifth Gear guys hammer around some track, and the Audi is quicker by a small margin.

Quickest Amerispec RS5 in the quarter is Road & Track's car, turning 12.2. Quickest Amerispec M3 goes 12.4 according to Car & Driver.

Agree with some of your other points, although weight by itself is immaterial, as is weight distribution (think Porsche).

Handles better? The bimmer has better power-to-weight figures, yet the Audi is quicker on road courses, by and large.

I admit (and have declared) that the M3 has better steering overall. That's attributed largely to the Audi's AWD penalty in that department. So what, though. The bimmer is better in that regard, period.

Bruce

If you want to arbitrarily pick magazines to quote as "evidence" of something then how about quote the fact that 9 out of 10 *head to head comparison articles*, both in the US and the EU, pick the M3 as a winner *and* point out that its cheaper, over the RS5?

I get it. You love the RS5 and feel it is superior to the M3. Thats great and its fantastic that anyone who can afford an RS5 can afford either car since the RS5 is actually more expensive.

It's pretty much all subjective though, and disingenuous to try to cherry pick objective stats taken from different drivers on different days to "prove" there is a clear winner. If it were so "clear", the M3 wouldnt have won *any* head to head (much less pretty much all of them)

I know I know... BMW pays them all off. Unless there is a test where the BMW doesnt win (like the current F30 head to heads) in that case the tests are fair and I guess BMW forgot to mail in the check.

[Moo]

Test drove newest Carrera S and Cayman S.

Carrera sounded nicer but Cayman drove better

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by mlambert890

If you want to arbitrarily pick magazines to quote as "evidence" of something then how about quote the fact that 9 out of 10 *head to head comparison articles*, both in the US and the EU, pick the M3 as a winner *and* point out that its cheaper, over the RS5?

OK. I've apparently missed about a half-dozen comparisons, but all I've seen have the M3 winning. That's fine with me, but (and this is a serious question) which test had the Audi in front? I'm curious, since in my opinion most of these testers value back-road banditry above most other things, and that is an area where the M3 excels, as is the case with most other bimmers.

Originally Posted by mlambert890

I get it. You love the RS5 and feel it is superior to the M3. Thats great and its fantastic that anyone who can afford an RS5 can afford either car since the RS5 is actually more expensive.

You in fact don't get it at all. I have a great deal of respect for both cars, but don't love either one. Audi does in fact seem to be on a recent roll, though, with the S4 beating up on the 335i (and is), the S6 whipping both the E63 and the M5, and the S8 apparently being the luxury assassin of choice.

Originally Posted by mlambert890

It's pretty much all subjective though, and disingenuous to try to cherry pick objective stats taken from different drivers on different days to "prove" there is a clear winner. If it were so "clear", the M3 wouldnt have won *any* head to head (much less pretty much all of them)

From a strict performance perspective, it ain't subjective at all. I recently had a run-in with another, ahem, BMW fan, and challenged him to back up his statement about M3s routinely beating up on RS5s from a performance standpoint. Result? Zip. Nada.

I did in fact say in that string that I thought the M3 would beat up on the RS5 out on the highway, though.

Originally Posted by mlambert890

I know I know... BMW pays them all off. Unless there is a test where the BMW doesnt win (like the current F30 head to heads) in that case the tests are fair and I guess BMW forgot to mail in the check.

What?

Look, those who know me know that I don't give a damn about any automotive manufacturer, and that I am in fact a promiscuous fanboy, finding something to like in just about any car.

The fact is that the M3 is the absolute best back road ballet dancer measured against its competition, and for some, that may be all they need. For others, not so much.

For me, the 1 series is the best of BMW, with the sport-packaged 128 being the one of choice. Great turn-in and tossability, classic sound, and cheap to run.

Bruce

[Siciliano611]

the 128i is the best of BMW? that should be a bannable get-the-fuck-out offense

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Siciliano611

the 128i is the best of BMW? that should be a bannable get-the-fuck-out offense

Drove 'em back to back. Definitely preferred the 128. Not really knocking the M at all, but for me smaller, lighter and more tossable is more fun - meaning I think the M3 is too big and heavy.

Also love the sound. It's classic BMW straight six mellow snarl, something I've enjoyed for decades. The M has its own terrific sound, but only on the right hand side of the tach.

Ban me? Good luck.

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

.....

For me, the 1 series is the best of BMW, with the sport-packaged 128 being the one of choice. Great turn-in and tossability, classic sound, and cheap to run.

Bruce

Totally disagree. The 128, even with the sport package has horrible handling. Major understeer. No LSD. The turn you describe is just not there. It's practially impossible to induce any sort of oversteer even though it is a RWD. If you had said 1M or even 135i which has a stiffer suspension than the 128, I could see your point, but really Bruce, seems like you're just baiting now.

[hgtran21]

gt3 http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/cto/3896819066.html

[MA///M3]

saw a nice, new gray RS5 the other day. Sopke to the guy for a few, nice guy, nice car. He was excited. But, please go for the Cayman. Fantastic car!

[Deathboy]

987R

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you

Totally disagree. The 128, even with the sport package has horrible handling. Major understeer. No LSD. The turn you describe is just not there. It's practially impossible to induce any sort of oversteer even though it is a RWD. If you had said 1M or even 135i which has a stiffer suspension than the 128, I could see your point, but really Bruce, seems like you're just baiting now.

I have my stated opinion, which you consider asinine. You have your stated opinion, which I consider asinine. Draw.

But now I'm baiting the faithful because I prefer another BMW to the M3? Just another example of the thin-skinned folks populating this forum who judge themselves by the car they drive.

By the way, Road & Track recently said the 135is they recently tested is their favorite bimmer at the moment, and I could almost agree with them because the siren song of power calls us all, but you can feel the extra weight over the front end in that car compared to the 128.