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08-20-2011, 11:07 AM | #177 | |
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When we run we'll do different runs so everyone can see the difference at certain gears and speeds .. |
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08-22-2011, 12:47 PM | #180 |
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More pics -
New LC pistons and Carillo rods - Heads and Cams going in -
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24 G82 Xdrive Comp
16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ 08 ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ 08 E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH |
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08-22-2011, 12:52 PM | #181 |
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08-22-2011, 12:52 PM | #182 |
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More pics of the stock pistons and rods -
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24 G82 Xdrive Comp
16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ 08 ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ 08 E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH Last edited by DLSJ5; 08-22-2011 at 01:02 PM.. |
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08-22-2011, 12:54 PM | #183 |
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Beautiful!
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08-22-2011, 09:56 PM | #186 | |
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Ugh...
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08-23-2011, 12:26 AM | #187 | |
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So far with boosted E9X M3's, when you look at Vbox results, comparo runs, trap speeds, etc, the DCT is superior in straight line acceleration, that's just the way it is, it appears just about everybody, especially those with actual experience, acknowledge this to be the case. The 6MT and DCT cars in that vid DID make similar WHP on a Dynojet, when comparing different Dynojets it is quite rare that you will get a huge difference in WHP, that's what CF's are for. I do agree that a 6MT with more traction would be a better comparison but for you to overly assert that they aren't making the same whp is rubbish. You say the DCT is only good for 15-20whp? Then how do you explain a 366whp DCT trapping 116 and a 500+whp Supercharged 6MT trapping 119, same day, same track? When you take the traction factor out of it - How do explain the .7 - 1 second difference between supercharged 6MT's and DCT's 60-130, even when the 6MT's are making more power? How do you explain the 6MT SC'd Stroker 613whp being .5 -.7s slower than a 570whp and 586whp DCT M3? How do you explain a DCT making 570whp vs. a 6MT making 590whp, same kit, same dyno on the same day as well produce vastly different results in comparo runs, the DCT was MUCH faster. How do you explain on the same stretch of road, a Stage 3 6MT @ 640-660whp doing 60-130 in 6.9s vs. a DCT Stage 2 @ 586WHP doing 60-130 in 7 flat and 6.8s, even with 60+whp less the DCT was still faster. I get what you're trying to say, we're just not seeing that in the results so far.
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24 G82 Xdrive Comp
16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ 08 ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ 08 E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH Last edited by DLSJ5; 08-23-2011 at 12:31 AM.. |
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08-23-2011, 01:42 AM | #188 | |
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some of those simulations that you're talking about to see what happens in the results. I just did, and it seems to match these actual street results quite well. If fact, I'd say they match perfectly well. I've looked at many 6MT vBox graphs, and 0.6 seconds is the fastest shift speed I've ever seen. Most are about 0.7, and some are 0.8 seconds. That's measured from the time long-acc drops, to the time it returns. So that's the amount of time from clutch in, to clutch out and full engagement. Since you're a CarTest fan, you'll appreciate looking at the two charts below. As you know, you can input actual dyno charts into CarTest. If you do this, then these are the results. The same exact car model was used for each car, both listed at 3704 pounds, and 6MT using a 0.6 second shift time -- which is the fastest I've ever seen on a vBox file. The DCT used 0.05 seconds shift time. The first chart compares the same dyno chart from an ESS VT2-600 (517whp) in both DCT and 6MT. The graph above shows 0.61 seconds difference, and 8.53 MPH difference in the 1/4 mile, along with 1.2 second difference 60-130 MPH (yes, a whopping 1.2 seconds difference 60-130 MPH). If you change the shift speed to 0.4 seconds (seems impossible based on actual collected vBox data), the results become as follows: 0.41 seconds difference and 6.27 MPH difference in the 1/4 mile, along with 0.95 second 60-130 time. You'll notice that CarTest predicts an additional 2.26 MPH trap speed difference simply by changing the shift speed by 0.2 seconds. Now, let's do the same thing using the actual dyno charts from DLSJ5 (DCT @ 586whp) and M33 (6MT @ 594whp). Here's the CarTest results below: As you can see, using 0.6 seconds shift speed for the 6MT, it loses in the 1/4 mile by 0.67 seconds and 9.91 MPH in the 1/4 mile, and 1.68 seconds 60-130 MPH. Then if we reduce the 6MT shift speed to 0.4 seconds (again...a seemingly impossible task based on actual collected vBox data), the 6MT loses by 0.46 seconds and 7.48 MPH in the 1/4 mile, and loses by 1.42 seconds 60-130 MPH. Swamp, there is quite a bit of real life data collected in vBox files. Those files show the 6MT is quite a bit slower than the DCT for similar configurations. For whatever reason, you're chosing to ignore it and substitute your own. You love CarTest and talk about all of these simulations, but this is one case where you should have used it and seen the results for yourself. The CarTest simulations back up exactly what is one those vBox files and that "re-enactment" referenced above. Feel free to download the actual dyno charts from DLSJ5 and M33 from the Dyno Database, imput them into CarTest, and publish your own versions based on these same dyno charts. For your reference, here's the values used in CarTest for each vehicle. If you can spot something wrong, please point it out so it can be fixed and simulations re-run. But only do that if you are convinced that something is so egregiously wrong that you think it will significantly change these results -- which also seem to match real life quite well. Parameters for DLSJ5: Parameters for M33: |
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08-23-2011, 08:27 AM | #189 |
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1) Excellent feedback IMG !
2) I'm an idiot for buying the 6mt the second time around 3) This low compression VT3 is going to do damage on the street ! Drew are you going to be runing Meth as well ? |
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08-23-2011, 02:16 PM | #190 |
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I don´t belive that the difference is so big as the Vbox race above claims in real life.
We did some testing at a M5board event with my 335 DCt vs 335 manual. We had the same settings on the procedes and similar mods, take a look .The white car is my old car with DCT, Big tom is driving the manual, he shifts real fast.
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08-23-2011, 04:45 PM | #191 |
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Per you have to realize one thing when comparing a turbo 335 to a supercharged M3 they are very different in power delivery for starters ,
300 to 800 rpm can net you 60 to 120 whp (ballpark) between shifts where as the turbo will net you 20 40whp . The other factor is gearing take a look what i have to do to pass forum member ERM ( ricky ) on our way to ATCO [u2b]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srJKTVfCbnQ&hd=1/U2B] |
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08-23-2011, 11:11 PM | #192 | |
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PG caught a really small mistake in the CarTest data posted last
night. He noticed that 4th gear listed on the DCT in the CarTest data was incorrectly set at 1.29:1 instead of 1.39:1. So he corrected the gear ratio and re-ran the simulations. No real difference -- only about 0.01 seconds in the 1/4 mile, and 0.02 MPH in the 1/4 mile. The charts posted above are now updated with the corrections -- no need to repost them again, or give a new set of numbers since the differences are insignificant. Quote:
anything. The DCT in the 335 has a different 2nd gear, and the final drive ratio is totally different. The M3's in the video have double the WHP as the 335's. The comparison is about as apples to oranges as you can get -- the only links between them are the letters "BMW" and "DCT" -- everything else is different. The vBox race above is NOT a simulation -- it's the actual car's performance according to the vBox, but animated into a video. What you see in the video, is exactly what would have happened if those two cars met on the pavement. If you have vBox files of your M5board event between these two cars, then send them to me, and I'll have PG make them into a video as well. PG told me that on his next vBox Racer video, he'll compare a Gintani Stage-3 low comperssion motor against Drew's ESS VT2-625. This comparison will be interesting because it should really give the critics much less reason to doubt. Both cars were dyno'd at the same dyno on the same day only hours apart; and their vBox files come from the same exact stretch of road. So the critics can't complain about different dynos, different weather or different days on the dyno, or a different road. We already know from DLSJ5 that he beats the Gintani stage-3 that has 60+whp more but is 6MT. But until we see the video, we won't know how many car lengths the DCT with 60whp less beat the Gintani Stage-3 6MT. |
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08-24-2011, 02:57 AM | #193 | |||||
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I'll start here and reply to the next (from img) when I have a bit more breathing room with work...
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If you want to think of a hp equivalent for DCT, based on a stock 414 hp M3, and when looking at 1/4 mi times/trap, yes this is the difference. Both test and simulations back up this claim. In many cases the results are so close that other factors even overcome the differences. Have a look here at this performance "database" of stock M3 performance results. Quote:
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Also do note: I ran quite a few simulations to form/validate/back up some of the claims I made in my prior post. The basics I did long ago but added some work right when posting. I will have to put those together and also reply to the simulation based post response from img. Perhaps we should take this offline to another topic? I think it is a great topic for a totally separate thread. I'm a huge proponent of DCT, always have been. However, there is simply too much being ascribed to it here. It is not magic, it just shifts fast. We should all not ruin your cool engine build thread with this useful debate/discussion.
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08-24-2011, 03:05 AM | #194 | |
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Absolutely disagree. This is much more apples to apples than the cases you guys are coming up with to support your claims. The MT and M-DCT in the M3 have completely different total effective gear ratios (gear ratio x final drive). But ultimately that does not matter (partly as you saw with your typo gear ratio error!). However, in the 335 case, you are at least guaranteed to a factory tolerance level that the cars ARE putting down identical peak powers. This is something very poorly controlled and lacking in all of the dynojet and other dyno work. You should know as well as any (and as PG himself has pointed out) dynos can be subject to large manipulations or errors. I'm not calling out anyone in particular, owners, dyno owners, etc. It just is nowhere near factory repeatable and thus CAN be subject to large errors.
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08-24-2011, 11:02 AM | #195 |
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The DCT is definitly faster but a god driver could reduce the dct advantage a lot, take a look at the shifts in the movie above, he hardly lose any ground at all.
Both 335 cars have app 370-380 whp 200 less than a ess vt625 but still... We will probably have the opportunity to test a G-power SK2+ (9psi) DCT vs my Vt625 i a month or so, then i have to decide if i have to change the car but keep the ess kit or not,depending on the outcome
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Last edited by per; 08-24-2011 at 11:28 AM.. |
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08-24-2011, 03:48 PM | #196 | |
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actual dyno charts input into CarTest, shift times from vBox entered into CarTest etc., then simulating the results. We are also talking our own Mexico runs that have the same results. So far, the CarTest results perfectly match the real life results we've seen. You haven't offered any simulations or any real-life data other than stock cars in controlled environments with professional drivers. When you double the horsepower, I'm telling you that everything changes. I'm sure you're mulling over the data posted above and looking for something wrong. It will be interesting to see what you come up with. BTW, I don't think the accepted science of trap speed isn't as universally accepted as you think. I was at an NHRA drag race last year and asked one of the top fuel drag racers this exact question. At first he laughed and then added that everything from shift speed to gear ratios affects the trap speed. So just to satisfy my own curiosity, I ran CarTest simulations on a bone stock DCT modifying nothing but the final drive ratio from 1.50 to 3.62. CarTest predicts a 7MPH trap speed difference between these two ratios. How is this possible if gears don't make a difference in trap speed? We can start up this debate when DLSJ5 posts the vBox Racer video of him racing Tightie's car. |
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08-24-2011, 05:42 PM | #197 | |
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08-24-2011, 06:52 PM | #198 | |
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I have to find the vid of Drew (i think that is name) when he was in mexico with the vette, GTR and 458. The vette lost out big time on the shifts vs the other 3 DSG cars. You see the vette lose ground every time he shifted.
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