Official S65 Rod Bearing Condition Example Thread

[EvaaWilli]

Is it low-quality oil or a constant pedal in the floor?

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Please share the failed engines with BE, VAC, ACL, King etc. bearings as more information is always welcome.

Cheers,

Word of mouth means little when it comes to sharing information on a forum, hence why I and others haven't. I've heard from individuals that I feel are very reliable sources that there have been engine failures with BE bearings in them. Was improper installation a cause? I have no way of knowing for certain.

I believe on this sub-forum there was a BE related engine failure posted as well?

Again, I'm not trying to say, BY ANY MEANS, that people should not replace their rod bearings. I made 2 points:
1) The notion of seemly inevitable engine failure due to stock bearings that is often spread throughout this forum is inaccurate and frankly tiresome to see.
2) Tolerances outside of rod bearings play a role in wear that cannot be controlled by any bearing. An aftermarket bearing can help, but in the rare circumstance where the rod bore and rod journal clearances are at the minimum of the manufacturing spec, then even with an increased clearance bearing issues could occur.

I'll be replacing my OEM tin bearings in my race car this fall/winter but still debating which route to go.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Word of mouth means little when it comes to sharing information on a forum, hence why I and others haven't. I've heard from individuals that I feel are very reliable sources that there have been engine failures with BE bearings in them. Was improper installation a cause? I have no way of knowing for certain.

So, in your opinion, the opinion of another person carries more weight than the data presented by engine builders on this forum? Also, it is pretty crucial to realize there is a significant difference between saying "engines have failed due to BE bearings being installed" vs "engines have failed with BE bearings in them."

Originally Posted by tsk94

I believe on this sub-forum there was a BE related engine failure posted as well?

Yes, there was discussion surrounding an engine that failed after installing BE bearings. IIRC, SYT_Shadow spun a main with BE bearings due to a plugged catalytic converter. Another failed due to the fact the shells were installed with the locating tangs in the wrong position. And another supercharged engine spun a main at the track.

Originally Posted by tsk94

Again, I'm not trying to say, BY ANY MEANS, that people should not replace their rod bearings. I made 2 points:
1) The notion of seemly inevitable engine failure due to stock bearings that is often spread throughout this forum is inaccurate and frankly tiresome to see.

I agree and disagree. I have taken enough statistics courses in my life to fundamentally understand that there exists a risk that your bearings will be too tight (bell curve, tolerance stack, just my dumb luck all apply). Unfortunately, there is ZERO way to check without taking the oil pan off. So, given the labor to do this is far more $$ than the bearing shells and bolts, when you are in there, you might as well change them. You also have to consider the fact that the S65 is very expensive to replace, even with an unknown used lump from the junkyard.

Originally Posted by tsk94

2) Tolerances outside of rod bearings play a role in wear that cannot be controlled by any bearing.

Yup, lots of stuff can cause inadequate oil flow or premature engine failure. The currently shared data does show the following:

1. BMW did not follow bearing manufacturers best practices for journal clearance (physics is physics, no one can break the rules!!)
2. BMW did not produce different rod bearing shells to mitigate tolerance stack during assembly (they did build different shells for the mains - not sure why they did not for the rods...)
3. BMW did not match the rods, cranks and shells to ensure rod bearing design tolerances were met (based on the fact that some engines blow at less than 10K miles while some last 200K miles - statistics at work)

So, by eliminating one oil bottleneck, it will improve oil flow. This is a good thing. Might not fix all the problems, but something is better than nothing.

Originally Posted by tsk94

... An aftermarket bearing can help, but in the rare circumstance where the rod bore and rod journal clearances are at the minimum of the manufacturing spec, then even with an increased clearance bearing issues could occur.

BMW nominal is 0.00073"/" which below the 0.001"/" minimum recommended by ACL, King, Clevite and Glyco. BE nominal is 0.00115"/" with the minimum clearance being 0.00088"/". So, worst case, BE bearings (or ACL, or King, or VAC) will allow for sufficiently more (10% for BE) clearance than BMW nominal. Yes, it is still below vendor recommended. But, it is still an improvement over factory nominal.

Originally Posted by tsk94

I'll be replacing my OEM tin bearings in my race car this fall/winter but still debating which route to go.

Given your earlier statements, why are you going to change your bearings?

Cheers,

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

So, in your opinion, the opinion of another person carries more weight than the data presented by engine builders on this forum? Also, it is pretty crucial to realize there is a significant difference between saying "engines have failed due to BE bearings being installed" vs "engines have failed with BE bearings in them."



Yes, there was discussion surrounding an engine that failed after installing BE bearings. IIRC, SYT_Shadow spun a main with BE bearings due to a plugged catalytic converter. Another failed due to the fact the shells were installed with the locating tangs in the wrong position. And another supercharged engine spun a main at the track.



I agree and disagree. I have taken enough statistics courses in my life to fundamentally understand that there exists a risk that your bearings will be too tight (bell curve, tolerance stack, just my dumb luck all apply). Unfortunately, there is ZERO way to check without taking the oil pan off. So, given the labor to do this is far more $$ than the bearing shells and bolts, when you are in there, you might as well change them when you are in there. You also have to consider the fact that the S65 is very expensive to replace, even with an unknown used lump from the junkyard.




Yup, lots of stuff can cause inadequate oil flow or premature engine failure. The currently shared data does show the following:

1. BMW did not follow bearing manufacturers best practices for journal clearance (physics is physics, no one can break the rules!!)
2. BMW did not produce different rod bearing shells to mitigate tolerance stack during assembly (they did build different shells for the mains - not sure why they did not for the rods...)
3. BMW did not match the rods, cranks and shells to ensure rod bearing design tolerances were met (based on the fact that some engines blow at less than 10K miles while some last 200K miles - statistics at work)

So, by eliminating one oil bottleneck, it will improve oil flow. This is a good thing. Might not fix all the problems, but something is better than nothing.



BMW nominal is 0.00073"/" which below the 0.001"/" minimum recommended by ACL, King, Clevite and Glyco. BE nominal is 0.00115"/" with the minimum clearance being 0.00088"/". So, worst case, BE bearings (or ACL, or King, or VAC) will allow for sufficiently more (10% for BE) clearance than BMW nominal. Yes, it is still below vendor recommended. But, it is still an improvement over factory nominal.



Given your earlier statements, why are you going to change your bearings?

Cheers,

I'm changing my bearing for peace of mind. I don't know how the car was treated prior to my ownership and I don't have any way of tracking bearing wear past the ~3k km since I've owned the car.

How does my opinion of the issue being blown out of proportion in any way indicate that others or myself should continue to run stock bearings? I clearly stated that I'm in no way against changing bearings lol. My 2nd point was stating that most people don't even consider the other tolerances that play a role in overall clearance - again, not advocating one route is better or worse then the other in any way.

As I mentioned I'm still debating which route to go when I do replace bearings. BE is an option, but also WPC treated tin bearings are a consideration. Dogbone is running these and I've been told EAS (who sells WPC treated tin bearings) have used these in many many cars without issues thus far. Whether I go BE or OEM, the bearing will be replaced again in the future, regardless of the the route I go. For my application I view this as a maintenance item.

[WangTa]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Do your own research. I've done mine. Not every failure is documented online and whether or not improper installation played a role is difficult to determine.

I'm not saying aftermarket rod bearings aren't worthwhile doing by any means. But the notion that is spread around, particularly this forum, that if it's not addressed it's only a matter of time before the engine would fail is completely inaccurate and vastly blown out of proportion.

Would you be willing to share your research? Not trying to question you - just genuinely curious and want to find out about cases where BE or other third party bearings went bad. I've done research on this and perhaps your research methods are better than mine!

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Word of mouth means little when it comes to sharing information on a forum, hence why I and others haven't. I've heard from individuals that I feel are very reliable sources that there have been engine failures with BE bearings in them. Was improper installation a cause? I have no way of knowing for certain.

I believe on this sub-forum there was a BE related engine failure posted as well?

Again, I'm not trying to say, BY ANY MEANS, that people should not replace their rod bearings. I made 2 points:
1) The notion of seemly inevitable engine failure due to stock bearings that is often spread throughout this forum is inaccurate and frankly tiresome to see.
2) Tolerances outside of rod bearings play a role in wear that cannot be controlled by any bearing. An aftermarket bearing can help, but in the rare circumstance where the rod bore and rod journal clearances are at the minimum of the manufacturing spec, then even with an increased clearance bearing issues could occur.

I'll be replacing my OEM tin bearings in my race car this fall/winter but still debating which route to go.

As said by Scharbag , zero engine losses due to BE failures. People may 'hear things', but BE has a warranty on their shells if installed properly which is well documented. Am I supposed to believe someone paid a ton of money to fix their engine instead of making a scene about BE not honoring their warranty? Seems unlikely

It may be inevitable or not, but I don't think people really think it through.

Cool story:
A student at VIR in 2019 told me he thought the rod bearings were blown out of proportion so he hadn't done them to his low mile 2013. Guess what, he blew his engine up that same weekend. In the green run group, his first track weekend, he used stock tires and brakes without even camber plates. He did not win the HPDE trophy.

People also have pretty interesting ideas of what happens when you blow an engine. I've seen some people say 'it's 10k'. Well I'm sorry to be that guy, but just like the stupid Porsche discussions of fairies and unicorns, I'm going to reset expectations for a second.

When you blow your engine:
-You have to get the car back home or to a shop. You'd better have AAA platinum with extended towing or get ready to pay 1k in towing
-You need a new engine, which you buy off eBay or something. 10k. 10k for a random piece of crap you have no history on, no warranty on, may never have had an oil change in its life. Then, assuming the person is intelligent enough to do rod bearings this time, add 2k for that. I think if your engine has failed due to rod bearings and you did not think you rod bearing issues really exist, you should not change them.
-You pay 5k to the shop to remove your old engine and put another one back in. They will likely leave your car out in the lot for a minimum of 6 months while they 'schedule you in' while it gets burnt by the sun and pooped on by every bird in that zip code
-You need another car, unless you keep a spare car sitting around for these situations. So factor that into your numbers.

So let's add that up:
1k towing
10k ebay shit engine
2k rod bearings
5k in 'R&R'
-------------------
18k


Ah, I contacted my student and he still doesn't have his car back. It blew up Sep 1. We are in June 18.


I lost an engine due to main bearing failure and it took an entire year to be back up and running. Fortunately I have a third M3 I can use, so as long as everyone else also has a spare track car and owns multiple extra street cars they should be good

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by tsk94

I'm changing my bearing for peace of mind. I don't know how the car was treated prior to my ownership and I don't have any way of tracking bearing wear past the ~3k km since I've owned the car.

You mean you have no way to track bearing wear at all, as you car has tin bearings.

I've done a second rod bearing job on an E46, owned by the same owner the entire time, after 80k miles. They looked worse than the originals. I don't suggest it, but if you plan to replace regularly I bet you'll be fine.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

As said by Scharbag , zero BE failures.

It may be inevitable or not, but I don't think people really think it through.

Cool story:
A student at VIR in 2019 told me he thought the rod bearings were blown out of proportion so he hadn't done them to his low mile 2013. Guess what, he blew his engine up that same weekend. In the green run group, his first track weekend, he used stock tires and brakes without even camber plates. He did not win the HPDE trophy.

People also have pretty interesting ideas of what happens when you blow an engine. I've seen some people say 'it's 10k'. Well I'm sorry to be that guy, but just like the stupid Porsche discussions of fairies and unicorns, I'm going to reset expectations for a second.

When you blow your engine:
-You have to get the car back home or to a shop. You'd better have AAA platinum with extended towing or get ready to pay 1k in towing
-You need a new engine, which you buy off eBay or something. 10k. 10k for a random piece of crap you have no history on, no warranty on, may never have had an oil change in its life. Then, assuming the person is intelligent enough to do rod bearings this time, add 2k for that. I think if your engine has failed due to rod bearings and you did not think you rod bearing issues really exist, you should not change them.
-You pay 5k to the shop to remove your old engine and put another one back in. They will likely leave your car out in the lot for a minimum of 6 months while they 'schedule you in' while it gets burnt by the sun and pooped on by every bird in that zip code
-You need another car, unless you keep a spare car sitting around for these situations. So factor that into your numbers.

So let's add that up:
1k towing
10k ebay shit engine
2k rod bearings
5k in 'R&R'
-------------------
18k


Ah, I contacted my student and he still doesn't have his car back. It blew up Sep 1. We are in June 18.


I lost an engine due to main bearing failure and it took an entire year to be back up and running. Fortunately I have a third M3 I can use, so as long as everyone else also has a spare track car and owns multiple extra street cars they should be good

This is exactly my point, you talk about it like it's inevitable - why? It's not.

I don't understand how people confuse my position with one that is fully going against what you're saying. Given the age and mileage on most of these cars now, it's certainty a good idea to replace rod bearings - where have I said otherwise. My whole argument is people are blowing this out of proportion and it mainly is on this forum from what I can see.

You saying there has been 0 BE related failures holds as much weight as me saying I've heard of BE related failures. I highly doubt you have information relating to EVERY blown motor that had BE bearings to confidently state that. BE likely wouldn't even have all that information as there's a very strong possibly that at least 1 failed engine that happened to run their bearings wasn't directly brought to their attention.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

You mean you have no way to track bearing wear at all, as you car has tin bearings.

I've done a second rod bearing job on an E46, owned by the same owner the entire time, after 80k miles. They looked worse than the originals. I don't suggest it, but if you plan to replace regularly I bet you'll be fine.

Lol, come on. You know that's not true. I may not be able to DIRECTLY monitor specifically bearing wear, but I can could still use oil analysis to see wear of tin and aluminum. If it suddenly spikes then chances are the bearings are wearing.

Like I said it will be done as preventative maintenance going forward. I'd be surprised if I put on more then 5k miles between rod bearing change intervals.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by tsk94

This is exactly my point, you talk about it like it's inevitable - why? It's not.

I don't understand how people confuse my position with one that is fully going against what you're saying. Given the age and mileage on most of these cars now, it's certainty a good idea to replace rod bearings - where have I said otherwise. My whole argument is people are blowing this out of proportion and it mainly is on this forum from what I can see.

You saying there has been 0 BE related failures holds as much weight as me saying I've heard of BE related failures. I highly doubt you have information relating to EVERY blown motor that had BE bearings to confidently state that. BE likely wouldn't even have all that information as there's a very strong possibly that at least 1 failed engine that happened to run their bearings wasn't directly brought to their attention.

I've already gone through the experience myself of blowing an engine. As long as others have spare track cars and spare street cars and 18k in their pocket them by all means, gamble away. I don't think it's statistically intelligent, but that's just me

I'm not sure they hold the same weight, as the DIY thread has thousands (?) of responses and I spend a lot of time helping people out specifically in the rod bearing department.
If someone blew their engine with BE bearings and then decided to pay for it themselves without resorting to the warranty claim process because instead of toilet paper they use hundred dollar bills, well ok, it just seems a bit unlikely, but I do believe you when you say you heard that.


I'm going to edit the response to lengthen it a bit. I spend a good amount of time every week answering people's PMs, phone calls, emails and posts about rod bearings - for $0, I might add. I doubt you do. So when you are contacted by person after person telling you of their M3s they bought a few weeks ago with rod knock and how they're changing rod bearings in their driveway on jackstands because they didn't expect this failure... well, you begin to respect it a bit more

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Lol, come on. You know that's not true. I may not be able to DIRECTLY monitor specifically bearing wear, but I can could still use oil analysis to see wear of tin and aluminum. If it suddenly spikes then chances are the bearings are wearing.

Like I said it will be done as preventative maintenance going forward. I'd be surprised if I put on more then 5k miles between rod bearing change intervals.

Monitoring wear on tin/alu is completely worthless. Although the BE bearings use copper/lead, I don't bother with oil analysis as multiple people have had great Blackstone analysis reports and then blown the engine shortly after. People with lead/copper bearings.

And this is coming from someone who, 15 years ago, shipped a Blackstone oil analysis from Barcelona Spain to the US.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I've already gone through the experience myself of blowing an engine. As long as others have spare track cars and spare street cars and 18k in their pocket them by all means, gamble away. I don't think it's statistically intelligent, but that's just me

I'm not sure they hold the same weight, as the DIY thread has thousands (?) of responses and I spend a lot of time helping people out specifically in the rod bearing department.
If someone blew their engine with BE bearings and then decided to pay for it themselves without resorting to the warranty claim process because instead of toilet paper they use hundred dollar bills, well ok, it just seems a bit unlikely, but I do believe you when you say you heard that.

And I mentioned, I have no way to confirm if the bearings were directly the cause of the failure - it was solely word of mouth.

I don't want to seem like I'm questioning your authority on the subject, as you've clearly dealt with this subject on this platform far more then I. Also your DIY is a great resource for many many people and it was very considerate of you to take the time to put that together and share it online.

With that being said, since many people respect your opinion (and rightly so) on this subject, it can come off as disingenuous when YOU state there has been 0 BE failures - which like we've agreed is realistically impossible to prove. Perhaps the better way to phrase it would be, 'There are 0 documented engine failures directly relating to bearing failure whilst running BE bearings.'

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Monitoring wear on tin/alu is completely worthless. Although the BE bearings use copper/lead, I don't bother with oil analysis as multiple people have had great Blackstone analysis reports and then blown the engine shortly after. People with lead/copper bearings.

And this is coming from someone who, 15 years ago, shipped a Blackstone oil analysis from Barcelona Spain to the US.

It's not completely worthless, that would be naive to think that. Is it nearly as effective as monitoring a lead based bearing, no!

It's better then nothing, and assuming small enough intervals to monitor drastic changes it could prevent failure. Is this realistic for everyone, perhaps not. I've done 3 oil analysis in ~700 miles this past season to keep an eye on my bearing wear.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by tsk94

I'm changing my bearing for peace of mind. I don't know how the car was treated prior to my ownership and I don't have any way of tracking bearing wear past the ~3k km since I've owned the car.

How does my opinion of the issue being blown out of proportion in any way indicate that others or myself should continue to run stock bearings? I clearly stated that I'm in no way against changing bearings lol. My 2nd point was stating that most people don't even consider the other tolerances that play a role in overall clearance - again, not advocating one route is better or worse then the other in any way.

As I mentioned I'm still debating which route to go when I do replace bearings. BE is an option, but also WPC treated tin bearings are a consideration. Dogbone is running these and I've been told EAS (who sells WPC treated tin bearings) have used these in many many cars without issues thus far. Whether I go BE or OEM, the bearing will be replaced again in the future, regardless of the the route I go. For my application I view this as a maintenance item.

Until you open the engine, there is no way to know. As you said, the bearings are pretty consistently sized. So, OE might work for you if you have small journals and large rod big ends. That said, ACL-H, VAC, BE all offer solutions that will increase clearance AND allow for oil samples to be meaningful.

And to your point from EAS: BMW produced 60,000+ S65s and 30,000+ S85s. Most of those have not failed. That said, the majority of bearings being removed show abnormal wear AND the failure rate appears to be MUCH higher than other similarly equipped V8 and V10 high performance engines (Ferrari, Audi etc.). This is in addition to the data collected by BE that clearly shows BMW designed a VERY tight engien that uses VERY thick oil.

Fingers crossed that WPC treated OE bearings are reliable for all those who have chosen to use them. Personally, I would never choose to use OE shells in an S65 unless I was able to verify the clearances. And if I was to the point of needing to rebuild an S65, I would choose whatever shell provided me proper clearance (plus I would fix the rod side clearance if needed etc...).

Happy motoring!

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by tsk94

And I mentioned, I have no way to confirm if the bearings were directly the cause of the failure - it was solely word of mouth.

I don't want to seem like I'm questioning your authority on the subject, as you've clearly dealt with this subject on this platform far more then I. Also your DIY is a great resource for many many people and it was very considerate of you to take the time to put that together and share it online.

With that being said, since many people respect your opinion (and rightly so) on this subject, it can come off as disingenuous when YOU state there has been 0 BE failures - which like we've agreed is realistically impossible to prove. Perhaps the better way to phrase it would be, 'There are 0 documented engine failures directly relating to bearing failure whilst running BE bearings.'

I edited the post before you answered to "due to", at least to the point people were willing to try to get warranty work done.
One car did try to get warranty work done after losing their engine post-BE install, and they followed the procedure and it turns out they had installed them wrong.
This was current the last time I checked, but I can check again.

0 BE failures, 0 failures due to BE, 0 failures directly related to BE, 0 documented failures directly due to BE bearings all mean similar things. This is kind of like Covid deaths... if you had heart disease but were alive, then you get Covid and die, they attribute the death to Covid.

You can do as you please with your engine. I recommend you get BE bearings and BE/ARP bolts. Replacing every 5k miles may be worse than rod bearing failure, as it is unavoidable that someone will mismatch a rod cap, or install a bearing incorrectly, or some other install failure.

I will only install BE bearings and bolts when I do someone's car, as I feel that using something else is at best suboptimal. BE measures every single bearing they ship, which is why they're out of stock. A long story that will probably never get posted but of course all the other vendors keep selling coated bearings, of course, because they don't measure anything they haven't noticed the difference.
Unlike most places that sell X or Y bearing as part of their rod bearing service, I pass on my exact discounted price to whoever I'm doing rod bearings to, so I make $0 off which bearing is used. You'd be surprised to hear the stories behind other outfits and why they push X or Y bearing. Before BE bearings went out of stock, I even gave forum members who I'm not doing rod bearings to my discounted price because I have zero interest in making any profit off anything car related.

I don't really care what people use, freedom is a wonderful thing. I get riled up in the rod bearing threads as well as the Porsche vs M thread only because I'm concerned for the 3rd party reader who is not part of the conversation but is trying to make up their mind. I want them to make the right choice. As far as the people arguing X or Y, I think it's great, just like Porsches, then I offer to pay for people's track day so they show me what their Porsche can do and everyone backs down.

[Stanbul_76]

After months of reading this forum finally had mine done. Car is 2012 with 81,156km. BE bearings and BE/ARP bolts went it.

[Blindside_137]

I'm with SYT. I don't care if the problem is blown out of proportion or not. The fact is you have no clue unless you LOOK. And if you look, why wouldn't you change them while you're there? These engines are so incredibly special that 2-3k is a small price to pay to try to preserve its longevity vs the nightmare scenario of 15-20k in repairs over a 6 month or more period for fixing a failure.

As SYT said it's a numbers game that I didn't want to play. I'm very glad to have done this for my car.

[iamcoy]

Hi I just wanted to say how excited i am being on this forum!

[SoCalRPM]

Originally Posted by iamcoy

Hi I just wanted to say how excited i am being on this forum!

Always a bundle of joy.

Reminder: you want to be someone on this thread who posts their preventative maintenance bearings condition, not their oh-no-my-engine-failed bearings condition.

[sidewinder_x5]

2008 E90 6MT
77800mi
4th owner
last oil change was at 73k

everything past cyl 3 really scares me. replaced with VAC/Clevite and ARP2000, along with redline 5w50

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by EvaaWilli

Is it low-quality oil or a constant pedal in the floor?

Neither. It’s the tolerance stack with which the engine was built. Based on the hundreds of photos of removed bearings, less than 10% appear to have normal wear for the mileage at which they were changed. There is no safe mileage you can wait for to change them. You either take the risk you won’t have an issue during your ownership of the car and accept a $10k-20k repair bill if they fail or you insure against that risk by spending $500-$2500 to change them preventatively.

I changed mine myself when my CPO warranty expired in 2014 at 60k miles and plan to change them again by 120k miles.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by sidewinder_x5

2008 E90 6MT
77800mi
4th owner
last oil change was at 73k

everything past cyl 3 really scares me. replaced with VAC/Clevite and ARP2000, along with redline 5w50

Oof. Those do look less than awesome... Good work on the change.

Cheers,