Blown motors, Rod Bearing failure S65 Registry.

[Gesler]

The example you gave is not uncommon, but how often do you think experienced people pick up things that novices or less experienced people miss? I think this is the issue for people who are sceptical that aftermarket people know better than the guys who came up with it.

Originally Posted by admranger

I get a kick out of how you think the mighty BMW engineering group is the end all be all in everything. This notion needs to die a quick death. It's blindingly ignorant at best, and malicious at worst.

FWIW I'm not defending VAC (or bebearings or anyone). I'm defending common sense...

Lemme tell you a little story that's completely true, but the things have been fictionalized.

[aus]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

Yeah, it's not as if BMW has a track record of bearing issues/recalls or anything...give em a break.

Or Nikasil lined motors failing (M52 and M60)
Or waste gates failing (N54)
Or turbos failing (N54). Hell, you could write an essay about all the failure of the N54.
Or bearing issues (S54)
Or MORE bearing issues (S85)
And still haven't learned about bearing issues (S65).

Then lets now forget the N63's eating batteries and NO FIX available without adjusting the mileage rating... which is a BIG deal.

That's just off the top of my head.

[aus]

Originally Posted by Gesler

The example you gave is not uncommon, but how often do you think experienced people pick up things that novices or less experienced people miss? I think this is the issue for people who are sceptical that aftermarket people know better than the guys who came up with it.

In general regarding aftermarket parts, you're absolutely right, but in this case, you have TWO separate groups of VERY experienced engine builders who BOTH see a problem with the stock bearings and came out with a potential fix.

Look at the S54's vanos failures. The aftermarket came out with an fix that's lasted many years now.
There's also the subframe failure in back that has also been addressed well by the aftermarket. If the right people get involved, the aftermarket can do some amazing fixes that for some reason, BMW just couldn't/wouldn't fix.

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by aus

Or Nikasil lined motors failing (M52 and M60)
Or waste gates failing (N54)
Or turbos failing (N54). Hell, you could write an essay about all the failure of the N54.
Or bearing issues (S54)
Or MORE bearing issues (S85)
And still haven't learned about bearing issues (S65).

Then lets now forget the N63's eating batteries and NO FIX available without adjusting the mileage rating... which is a BIG deal.

That's just off the top of my head.

Or *any* brushed DC motor driven component failing:
- N5x water pumps
- SMG3 hydraulic pump motors
- E6x/E9x DSC pump motors

Brushless motors are well suited for the application, have been around long enough to make use of. Brushed DC motors ensure parts revenue.

[Sneaky Pete]

I know...those guys at BMW eh...what are they like!
If only BMW AG could get back every S65 engine replaced under warranty.
And have a department to strip them down and forensically examine them for the failure cause.
If they just had some people smart enough to spot something so basic and simple as a too tight bearing clearance.
Maybe even a guy who could calculate the cost/benefit of adjusting a parts specification to mitigate the failures...perhaps by dropping a dollar on a phone call to the bearing manufacturer to ask for a little extra clearance.
Imagine how many 10s of millions of dollars they could save on warranty engine replacements?
Those BMW guys must be stupid and incompetent on an industrial scale not to put such a system in place.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

I know...those guys at BMW eh...what are they like!
If only BMW AG could get back every S65 engine replaced under warranty.
And have a department to strip them down and forensically examine them for the failure cause.
If they just had some people smart enough to spot something so basic and simple as a too tight bearing clearance.
Maybe even a guy who could calculate the cost/benefit of adjusting a parts specification to mitigate the failures...perhaps by dropping a dollar on a phone call to the bearing manufacturer to ask for a little extra clearance.
Imagine how many 10s of millions of dollars they could save on warranty engine replacements?
Those BMW guys must be stupid and incompetent on an industrial scale not to put such a system in place.

You say that, yet the s54 vanos issue is a simpler fix, the aftermarket solution is thoroughly proven at this point (5 years, thousands of cars, zero failures), and BMW never implemented it over the 9 years of s54 production. And it was something they previously knew how to do (on the s50B32), similar to how they used to know how to properly clearance a bearing (assuming that's the issue-- certainly not proven out yet).

Oh, and it would have been cheaper for BMW to implement the fix as a recall-- labor to lock down the s54 vanos failure mode takes ~3 hours.

[kb9uwu]

Originally Posted by admranger

I get a kick out of how you think the mighty BMW engineering group is the end all be all in everything. This notion needs to die a quick death. It's blindingly ignorant at best, and malicious at worst.

FWIW I'm not defending VAC (or bebearings or anyone). I'm defending common sense...

Lemme tell you a little story that's completely true, but the things have been fictionalized.

There once was a jr. engineer who worked for a minor aerospace company. This aerospace company was tiny compared to the main contractor building a gadget. A major feature of the gadget was failing in testing. It just couldn't meet the requirements, putting the multi-billion $ project in jeopardy. Said jr. engineer spent 18 straight hours experimenting with the features involved in the the key problem the gadget was having. Said jr. engineer had an "a ha" moment and found a fix. The next day the fix was implemented and the gadget was saved.

Happened on two separate occasions during my career in aerospace. Project in deep doo-doo until a solution by the tiny company saved the huge company and their astonishingly bright (and good looking, just ask them) engineers from peril.

So tell me again why you think BMW engineers know best and are infallible? The major aerospace company thought their engineers knew best too. Trust me, an S65 (or an M3) is stupidly simple compared to what I was working on... I'm sure this has happened countless times in countless projects.

tl;dr

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by Obioban

You say that, yet the s54 vanos issue is a simpler fix, the aftermarket solution is thoroughly proven at this point (5 years, thousands of cars, zero failures), and BMW never implemented it over the 9 years of s54 production. And it was something they previously knew how to do (on the s50B32), similar to how they used to know how to properly clearance a bearing (assuming that's the issue-- certainly not proven out yet).

Oh, and it would have been cheaper for BMW to implement the fix as a recall-- labor to lock down the s54 vanos failure mode takes ~3 hours.

Lets say BMW have warranty replaced 500 S65 engines at what? $20,000 a pop?
That's 10 million dollars - an awful lot of reasons to look for a cheap and easy fix.
I would suggest that BMW looked at the few hundreds USA S65 failed engines and compared it to the handful from the UK - and figured that whatever was going on it wasn't a universal problem....and there was no cheap easy fix.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Lets say BMW have warranty replaced 500 S65 engines at what? $20,000 a pop?
That's 10 million dollars - an awful lot of reasons to look for a cheap and easy fix.
I would suggest that BMW looked at the few hundreds USA S65 failed engines and compared it to the handful from the UK - and figured that whatever was going on it wasn't a universal problem....and there was no cheap easy fix.

Let's pessimistically assume that 2% of s65s get nuked due to rod bearing failure, at $20,000 a pop. That means BMW is spending $400 per car, on average, on rod bearing repairs.

Rod bearing labor/parts for a recall would cost them at least $1000 per car, more likely ~$1500. Not to mention upsetting people that they have to bring their car in for another recall (the overwhelming majority of which have no idea that their rod bearings could be taking out their engine, and are just happy sheep currently), and go through another break in period. And some of the jobs will be done incorrectly, as BMW dealership techs are horrible incompetent, which would probably mean they'd have to replace 2% of the engines due to failure due to ineptly done labor anyway.

Math pretty clearly states they shouldn't be doing a recall.

And that's all based on a 2% failure rate, which is likely way too high for the warranty period of the car.

The aftermarket S54 vanos fixes (fully proven out at this point, by years/miles/thousands of cars/winter use/race use) are loctite, to stop the cam bolts from loosening, and a slightly smaller hole, on an easily replaceable piece, to reduce slop in the system... and BMW never found those fixes worth performing. Literally $150 in parts (via the aftermarket, would be cheaper for BMW) and 3 hours of labor (which is much less likely to result in engine failure than rod bearings/bolts).

I can't see BMW not recalling the cars to replace the rod bolts and indicative of anything.

I'd also point out that BMW recalling the 01 and 02 S54s, in 2002, was a very different situation-- they were recalling them because they were not manufactured to their design spec, not because they changed the spec. Also, it was near the beginning of the production cycle of the engine, and the failure rate in warranty was much higher.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Lets say BMW have warranty replaced 500 S65 engines at what? $20,000 a pop?
That's 10 million dollars - an awful lot of reasons to look for a cheap and easy fix.
I would suggest that BMW looked at the few hundreds USA S65 failed engines and compared it to the handful from the UK - and figured that whatever was going on it wasn't a universal problem....and there was no cheap easy fix.

You aren't taking into account how much third-party warranties are paying BMW for replacement engines...probably a growing number. Honestly I'm clueless with respect to the actual balance of the cost for BMW warranty/goodwill replacement versus revenue generated by third-party warranty replacements, but I think it's an interesting topic from a conspiracy perspective.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by ksteckba

You aren't taking into account how much third-party warranties are paying BMW for replacement engines...probably a growing number. Honestly I'm clueless with respect to the actual balance of the cost for BMW warranty/goodwill replacement versus revenue generated by third-party warranty replacements, but I think it's an interesting topic from a conspiracy perspective.

He keeps recycling his same conspiracy theories every time he thinks he has a new audience. Don't take what he says as anything close to the truth.

[byroncheung]

Originally Posted by aus

In general regarding aftermarket parts, you're absolutely right, but in this case, you have TWO separate groups of VERY experienced engine builders who BOTH see a problem with the stock bearings and came out with a potential fix.

Is there another clearance solution other than the bebearings?

Or you just mean the bebearings were produced by 2 groups of people working together (sorry I'm not familiar of the who's who behind the bebearings)

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by Obioban

[....]
Math pretty clearly states they shouldn't be doing a recall.
[....]

Indeed...but I'm talking more about in production spec changes rather than a recall.

As you well know this was an identical issue for S85 engines.
So BMW were well used to seeing these kinds of RB failures before the S65 was even put in production.

So, on the balance of probabilities we can be pretty certain that:
BMW knows exactly what the problem is.
BMW used the S85 RB clearance in the S65 platform because they did not consider it to be the cause of accelerated RB wear.
BMW had years of S85 and S65 production to make a simple RB clearance adjustment but they did not.
The cost of fully fixing the RB problem seen in S85 motors and later but to a lessor extent in the S65 motor exceeded the cost benefits.

[kerkiraios00]

And I wanted to put a blower on my car this thread is def changing my mind!!

[aus]

Originally Posted by byroncheung

Is there another clearance solution other than the bebearings?

Or you just mean the bebearings were produced by 2 groups of people working together (sorry I'm not familiar of the who's who behind the bebearings)

VAC also came out with a specific bearing that's coated but doesn't really increase the clearance of the bearing. They did adjust for the thickness of the coating while keeping stock clearances... at least that's what I've been able to figure out.
.

[Doc Oc]

That's what VAC says but I think RG's measurements showed them to provide the most clearance next to BE.

Edit:. wanted to add, from what I've heard/seen it looks like the vac bearings are basically OEM 088/89 bearings, just a bit thinner. Same manufacturer as well.

[CHE///MIST3]

Is there any way to purchase the original 088/89 bearings without any coatings on them? I see the only OEM replacemants are the newer tin/aluminum ones.

Aside from that, BE bearings are at least reportedly size binned before you receive them, so it's less likely to throw off the install into worse situation than stock...assuming there was even bad wear in the first place.

GM

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

That's what VAC says but I think RG's measurements showed them to provide the most clearance next to BE.

Edit:. wanted to add, from what I've heard/seen it looks like the vac bearings are basically OEM 088/89 bearings, just a bit thinner. Same manufacturer as well.

[pbonsalb]

Original bearings are NLA from BMW.

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by GMCHEM83

Is there any way to purchase the original 088/89 bearings without any coatings on them? I see the only OEM replacemants are the newer tin/aluminum ones.

Aside from that, BE bearings are at least reportedly size binned before you receive them, so it's less likely to throw off the install into worse situation than stock...assuming there was even bad wear in the first place.

GM

Possibly you could get with vac and buy a set before they send it to calico? Not sure.

[byroncheung]

Originally Posted by GMCHEM83

Aside from that, BE bearings are at least reportedly size binned before you receive them, so it's less likely to throw off the install into worse situation than stock...assuming there was even bad wear in the first place.

GM

Can someone educate me on this "size binning" business? Does it mean getting a set of bearings that has thickness close to each other, so they will wear evenly?

I also remember reading something about to do it really properly, some sort of measurements have to be taken (maybe the connecting rod journals or something like that? And match them to the bearing thickness?)?

Basically my biggest concern is, is there a chance to make the situation worse off if I do a preventive RB change? Would it depends on how is it done (if the measurements in question are done, v.s. just throw on a set of new bearings)?

TIA...

[Doc Oc]

Absolutely you can make it worse. Anytime you open up the bottom end and make changes like that you run the risk of a bad install, a manufacturing flaw in bearing or bolt, etc. You have a 95% chance that your motor is fine. You have to weigh those odds against the chances the mechanic you choose to do the job could screw something up or the parts you choose being flawed.

[byroncheung]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

Absolutely you can make it worse. Anytime you open up the bottom end and make changes like that you run the risk of a bad install, a manufacturing flaw in bearing or bolt, etc. You have a 95% chance that your motor is fine. You have to weigh those odds against the chances the mechanic you choose to do the job could screw something up or the parts you choose being flawed.

That's my worry. What about what's the best way of doing it (measuring, buying rod bearings within spec based on measurement etc)? I guess it will improve the chance of getting good outcome? Couple of shops around here I talked to I don't get the impression that they will go that far, probably will just put on whatever they receive from the bearing vendors...