Custom Clevite Rod Bearings

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by theboss1853

Yep had some noise in the bottom of the engine but I also had an exhaust issue that was masking it too... I'll post on the other thread as well. Thanks for the reply.

Very sad story !
Thank you sir for the reply .

[wrecklessfool]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I've already given it to you before.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...=386602&page=2

Followed the link and read the thread in its entirety. Good read but the pieces of the puzzle still fit. Looks like Pencil Geek/regular guy set the record straight on the last post once and for all as well. Might be worth a read as it clearly fills in the holes you have attempted to punch in his research and engine building evolution. If this does not end the debate then you obviously have an ulterior motive and it would be nice if you shared what that is with the crowd.

Here is a link to the post I just referenced:

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...9&postcount=30

[aus]

Originally Posted by wrecklessfool

Followed the link and read the thread in its entirety. Good read but the pieces of the puzzle still fit. Looks like Pencil Geek/regular guy set the record straight on the last post once and for all as well. Might be worth a read as it clearly fills in the holes you have attempted to punch in his research and engine building evolution. If this does not end the debate then you obviously have an ulterior motive and it would be nice if you shared what that is with the crowd.

Here is a link to the post I just referenced:

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...9&postcount=30

BOOOM PG brings down the hammer.

.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by wrecklessfool

Here is a link to the post I just referenced:
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...9&postcount=30

Jeez what are you RGs side kick? You posted almost straight after RG made that post on a completely different forum.

Anyway for the record these are verbatim extracts from the engine rebuild stories..

Original 2011 engine build story at Van Dyne:
"This is another one of those areas where BMW doesn't publish any specifications, so without measuing a few crankshafts and connecting rods, it's impossible to know what BMW intended. A typical measurement is 0.010" (ten-thousanths of an inch). For our application, we wanted a slightly different side-play tolerance. So we first had to measure the factory crank and connecting rods, then measure the stroker crank and connecting rods to see how they compare.
Even though Carrillo connecting rods are made to the highest standards, we did find a few of them were 1/2 of a thousanth of an inch different than the others (0.0005"). Since Van Dyne already planned to use his own tolerance specifications, this was our opportunity to make the necessary corrections. To ensure that Van Dyne machines the correct face of the connecting rod, each rod is marked with dye. The dyed face is the side that gets machined."


By 2013, in the Wiki Bearing thread, the above is completely rewritten to become:
"Almost in disbelief, Van Dyne started taking measurements. [...]
The measurements showed the Carrillo and factory connecting rods are the same thickness. This is positive proof that the factory BMW crankshafts are machined without enough rod side clearance AND without enough rod bearing clearance. It's a double-whammy against proper engine oiling and operation."

Note:
No mention that the OEM BMW parts measure up tight in the original 2011 write up.
No mention that the Corrillo and OEM rods measure up the same in the original 2011 write up
In fact the shock horror moment gets no mention at all.

But if you guys think some bloke on the internet with no access to any of the TBs of data that BMW have on the S85/65 can pull a better (but secret) rod bearing clearance out of his hat then definitely go with that.
I'm sure if your engine with the new undersize bearings lets go at 20K miles, Regular Guy will be straight there to pick up the cost.

[Obioban]

If anyone's interested in PencilGeek's reply to SenorFunkyPants, you can read it here:

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...9&postcount=30

[Rupes]

Oh man, I was going to watch my soaps this morning, but why bother when I have M3post? Wonder who is going to betray who next!?

[SenorFunkyPants]

And in the next thrilling episode!

Originally Posted by Obioban

If anyone's interested in PencilGeek's reply to SenorFunkyPants, you can read it here:

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...9&postcount=30

The link is also in three of the posts above.
I wasn't going to bother replying to all the points RG made there but here are most.
So I mixed who built and who installed the engine boo hoo its hardly a federal offence.
Side play covered in my post above.
The original Carillo rods: "On three or four of the connecting rods, precisely where the connecting rod cap bolts together, three or four of the bearings were worn to the copper. At such high power and high rotational velocity (high RPMs), the connecting rod cap was deforming, becoming oval shape, and pinching the connecting rod bearings." (Got to feel for the motor that inherited these crappy rods). These were replaced with another set from Carrillo...as I said.
RG may not be the point of sale but that doesn't mean he will not profit from it - not that there is anything wrong from making a few $$$ from the project, other people are going to.
Still no mention of what the new clearance will be.
On tolerance variations: What happens if the tolerance variation means you are already at the wider clearance end of the spectrum and the new thinner bearings give even more clearance?

[kawasaki00]

You guys need to take this argument somewhere else and quit clogging up this thread.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

The word.... "if" is the key word in your comment... Like you said => "if" they have found a fix !
It doesn't matter how much $$$$ my friend...=>"if"<= it's a fix !
Let's hope we can change the word... "if" => in => "is" !
So let's hope that... It's a fix ! But only the future can tell us this !
Personal I don't like to see my S65 as an experiment !

Sadly that's just the way of these fixes-- even if BMW themselves had a recall to address this issue with a new crank/rods/pistons/bearings.

Originally Posted by 8600RPM

Safly it will take another 5 years after people start messing with new specs of parts to see that it will only start causing other problems. The builders of this engine designed the s85 at a time where it was no holds barred in terms of pushing limit, screw longevity and model an engine as close to a race engine as possible. They chose specs to max performance with relative acceptability in some longevity but these engines were never destined for r Reliability. This was an Era where bmw was still relevent to f1 in the late 90s. Yes the core design of this thing is a 90s design for the e60 m5.

It was flawed if the metric was reliability. It was Ms first chance to have carte Blanche at developing a bespoke ridiculous street race engine and they did that. Howevery by the time s65 wasnt much more than an update s85.

They gave us what we all wanted and we loved it. Can't have your cake and eat it to in my view. Howe've to think the engineers didn't pick specs for a reason is ridiculous. You will see a tight bottom end may very well support the lubrication, oil pressure and health of other parts spinning at 8500 rpms.

Just my.02. Bmw built a dream engine, it comes at a cost and specs are a compromise to ensure crazy race performance and relative longevity of other high stressed parts. To think thete is some easy fix to improve engine that much and bmw looked over this is absurd.

Eh, no, this is just an engineering error. S54 has higher specific output and higher piston speed (and more lateral forces into the block). S65/S85 is more holds barred that S54 (likely because the original plan for the F8X/F10 gen was a stroker/turned up S65/S85). And, really, given the technology of the day, the S54 was probably more holds barred than the S50B32, even if specific output and piston speed is higher in the S54.

[8600RPM]

And the s54 had bearing issues. My point exactly. Pushing envelope has costs

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by 8600RPM

And the s54 had bearing issues. My point exactly. Pushing envelope has costs

S54's bearing issue was very different-- the bearing manufacturer didn't produce them to BMW's specifications. The recall was to put in the bearings that BMW designed. That's why there was no more bearing issue after 2002.

[GIdriver]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

You guys need to take this argument somewhere else and quit clogging up this thread.

+1

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

You guys need to take this argument somewhere else and quit clogging up this thread.

For sure!

[OM VT3]

RG is the man

[Bemo]

Assuming that the new bearings are more or less in the $2-2.3K (parts + install) range can anyone quantify the cost, and ideally list few places, that can correct the rod/crank side clearance issues?

As a potential owner, I would like to know what I'm signing up for.
I have no problems spending $2-3K every 50K miles to maintain an awesome motor (rod bearings) but this side clearance issue has me worried...

[pbonsalb]

I have not yet read of any failures due to side clearance. I changed my bearings myself at 61k and don't plan to worry for another 60k, which will be at least 5 years for me and probably longer (I drive my turbo E36M3 as much as possible).

[Flea7]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I changed my bearings myself at 61k ).

How difficult was that? If you don't mind me asking?

[pbonsalb]

None of it was rocket science but if you have not changed rod bearings before, have someone help who has. More a matter of care and patience than skill. I have a lift and would prefer not to attempt this job on my back on the floor. Figure on about 15 hours for a first timer for this job on this car. Do it again and it will be less. Do it a few times and you could probably do it in 8 hours or maybe a little less. Spend the extra $200 for ARP bolts and you will save some time since new stock BMW rod bolts must be torqued 3 times and each torque sequence is 3 stages. With 8 rods, that gets old fast. Probably adds over an hour. ARPs just have one 3 stage torque sequence. Parts are about $500 plus oil and filter, using WPC treated bearings and stock bolts; add $200 for ARP bolts.

[Flea7]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

None of it was rocket science but if you have not changed rod bearings before, have someone help who has. More a matter of care and patience than skill. I have a lift and would prefer not to attempt this job on my back on the floor. Figure on about 15 hours for a first timer for this job on this car. Do it again and it will be less. Do it a few times and you could probably do it in 8 hours or maybe a little less. Spend the extra $200 for ARP bolts and you will save some time since new stock BMW rod bolts must be torqued 3 times and each torque sequence is 3 stages. With 8 rods, that gets old fast. Probably adds over an hour. ARPs just have one 3 stage torque sequence. Parts are about $500 plus oil and filter, using WPC treated bearings and stock bolts; add $200 for ARP bolts.

Thanks for the info. I do have a lift in the garage.......hhhhmmmm

[wrecklessfool]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

ARPs just have one 3 stage torque sequence.

I thought the ARP bolts were a single torque to 45 lb/ft (ARP2000 material)? What is the three stage sequence you referenced above?

[Obioban]

APR bolts add a lot of cost to save a couple minutes work.

On the other hand, unlike stock they are reusable, so if you're keeping the car a long time and replacing the bearings repeatedly, could we worth it

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by wrecklessfool

I thought the ARP bolts were a single torque to 45 lb/ft (ARP2000 material)? What is the three stage sequence you referenced above?

Maybe they are just one. I have not used the ARP rod bolts on the S65. Just a single stage single torque would make them even faster to install. EAS is really raking in the bucks on their $2350 installs with ARPs. They probably don't even have 8 hours in one of these jobs. That is like $200 per hour after subtracting parts costs.