Blown motors, Rod Bearing failure S65 Registry.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Longer crank is harder on bearings.

Assume you mean longer stroke? Either way that is not true. In two engine designs if you could have EVERYTHING else exactly equal except stroke, you may be able to draw some conclusion like this but everything equal except stroke is impossible anyway... Also, if an OEM could design EVERYTHING equal less the stroke they would probably make bearing changes.

Let's do try to oblige the OP and keep on topic here.

Easy for me to say after I get in my 2 cents...

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Assume you mean longer stroke? Either way that is not true. In two engine designs if you could have EVERYTHING else exactly equal except stroke, you may be able to draw some conclusion like this but everything equal except stroke is impossible anyway... Also, if an OEM could design EVERYTHING equal less the stroke they would probably make bearing changes.

Let's do try to oblige the OP and keep on topic here.

Easy for me to say after I get in my 2 cents...

I meant crank, as I said, not stroke.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

But at a much higher failure rate it seems.

The S85 may be failing at a faster rate because it is older. It came out 2 or 3 years before the S65. I think S65 failures will be going up.

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

The S85 may be failing at a faster rate because it is older. It came out 2 or 3 years before the S65. I think S65 failures will be going up.

Its my understanding that the S85 rate has been consistently much higher than the S65 at the same age.
S65 failures seem to be coming down. The 2015 rate was half of the 2014 rate.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by IIAp3x

The first owner of my car got it new under a 2 year lease, and I can assure you that the guy could give a shit about the warm-up procedure; not to mention that my car was also a northern US car which was not driven through the winters... I doubt he warmed up the car properly or ever cared knowing he would be giving it back to the dealer in two years... and of course my engine's bearing's grenaded at 55k miles..

How many people on M3post are the original owners? Probably a very very small percentage...

Not all of us are wealthy enough to afford a $1200-$1500 monthly car payment without making some stupid sacrifices- so we buy used M3s instead...

If you had a new M4 lease, would you really care that much about the car if you knew the maintenance was free, under warranty, and you would be trading it in for another one in two years?

I had a 3 year lease on my M3. I returned the car 3 years later with 44k miles. didnt do the break in, went in for oil changes when the warning came on, and drove it through the winters also. Proper warm up was not a concern of mine either because BMW had my back.

I wont say i abused the car, i just wasn't worried about.

When you buy a used car you never know what you are truly getting something, its the reason why i will never buy a car without a factory warranty OR some warranty left on when buying used. knowing how problematic these engines can be, it would be crazy for me to buy a higher mileage used one.

unless i am going to swap the know parts out, the rod bearings.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Its my understanding that the S85 rate has been consistently much higher than the S65 at the same age.
S65 failures seem to be coming down. The 2015 rate was half of the 2014 rate.

E60 M5 ended production right about when the new bearings came out. Half of E9x M3 production probably has the new bearings. Maybe the newer bearings are a little more durable. But M3 with the aluminum bearings are failing also. Still seems like there are no certainties and in light of that the best way to minimize risk is to change the bearings as preventative maintenance.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Ezio

I had a 3 year lease on my M3. I returned the car 3 years later with 44k miles. didnt do the break in, went in for oil changes when the warning came on, and drove it through the winters also. Proper warm up was not a concern of mine either because BMW had my back.

I wont say i abused the car, i just wasn't worried about.

When you buy a used car you never know what you are truly getting something, its the reason why i will never buy a car without a factory warranty OR some warranty left on when buying used. knowing how problematic these engines can be, it would be crazy for me to buy a higher mileage used one.

unless i am going to swap the know parts out, the rod bearings.

You are the worst...

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

E60 M5 ended production right about when the new bearings came out. Half of E9x M3 production probably has the new bearings. Maybe the newer bearings are a little more durable. But M3 with the aluminum bearings are failing also. Still seems like there are no certainties and in light of that the best way to minimize risk is to change the bearings as preventative maintenance.

I don't have a problem with people changing RBs as preventative maintenance (to OEM spec bearings).

However I have a suspicion that the recent drop in S65 failure rate, especially seen for 2012 and 2013 S65 cars, may be connected to the final ECU software version (240e/241e) released in 2012 IIRC.

That BMW changed the ion sensing anti knock hardware used on the S85 to a better system on the S65 may well account for the improved reliability of the S65 platform over the S85 (for the same RB clearance).
Noting that BMW then continually developed the ECU software for 5 years (but not the RB environment) through 10 different versions before arriving at 240e.

[pbonsalb]

Yes, detonation is one theory. Not enough of these motors have been opened up on the top end to know whether pitting is present on the piston tops but if it is there it is a common sign of detonation.

Software updates are common on newer model cars. We dont know how much was directed at the knock sensing. There were 4 crank revisions as well. But BMW is not acknowledging any issues with software or hardware or its service requirements.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

You are probably one of those people that also think when you shut a car off it heat soaks and gets hotter

You are probably one of those guys who thinks they know more than BMW about engine building and will beat the drum you want to beat until it's dead.

Love how this place always turns to the same crap, attacks.

Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

You are probably one of those people that also think when you shut a car off it heat soaks and gets hotter

You probably one of those people that think they know more about engine building than BMW and have decided they know the cause of the cases of bearing failure and have fully pushed this as being FACT.

Forget it.....you all push your theories and sell your aftermarket bearings, I'm going to enjoy my car, this place is as useless as ever.

Cheers,
e46e92

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

You probably one of those people that think they know more about engine building than BMW and have decided they know the cause of the cases of bearing failure and have fully pushed this as being FACT.

Forget it.....you all push your theories and sell your aftermarket bearings, I'm going to enjoy my car, this place is as useless as ever.

Cheers,
e46e92

When BMW's engineers failed (they did, as seen by the failures), and the car has reached a point where it won't be seeing any further support or development from the factory (s65 has), you have three options:
1) accept your fate and hope to get lucky
2) sell the car
3) attempt to address the design shortcoming

The idea that it can't be corrected by anyone outside of BMW is silly. The S54 had vanos issues from 2001 to ~2009 that went ignored by BMW. The aftermarket (particularly Beisan) has created a solution that is pretty well proven out-- having been on the market for ~5 years now, installed on thousands of cars, they are seeing a 100% success rate (0 vanos failures to date on cars with the beisan parts. S54's without the Beisan VANOS upgrades fail on a lottery-- we've seen as low as 9000 miles).

BMW is not infallible, and their design/production shortcomings can be overcome retroactively by the aftermarket.

Are kawasaki00's bearings the solution that'll address the s65's bearing short comings? We won't know that for years. But, I think they're one of the most likely to be successful candidates out there. BMW's engineers deviated pretty significantly from standard engine building practices when it came to bearing clearance on the s65.

To say that his/others efforts are stupid is short sighted and shooting yourself in the foot.

[pbonsalb]

I agree that the aftermarket has created some great products that make cars more reliable and more fun to drive. The stock parts work, but you may have to change them more often. Plastic tank radiators addressed by aluminum aftermarket replacements for E36 and E39 cars, rattling vanos fixed by aftermarket anti rattle shim on 93-99 single vanos six cylinder motors.

I drive my car. If it cannot be driven normally, I don't want it. If I have to wait 5 minutes to warm it up and 5 minutes to cool it down, that does not work for me. Works for you guys who drive your car once a week as a special occasion. My built engine turbo E36M3 is different, but that car has triple stock power -- I will give it 15-30 seconds warm up when I can and 30 seconds cool down when I can. But my E90M3 is stock longblock and has only 10-15% more power than stock and was intended for year round daily driver duty. I put WPC treated stock rod bearings and new stock rod bolts in when it was out of extended warranty at 60k in 2014.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

I don't have a problem with people changing RBs as preventative maintenance (to OEM spec bearings).

However I have a suspicion that the recent drop in S65 failure rate, especially seen for 2012 and 2013 S65 cars, may be connected to the final ECU software version (240e/241e) released in 2012 IIRC.

That BMW changed the ion sensing anti knock hardware used on the S85 to a better system on the S65 may well account for the improved reliability of the S65 platform over the S85 (for the same RB clearance).
Noting that BMW then continually developed the ECU software for 5 years (but not the RB environment) through 10 different versions before arriving at 240e.

Updated ECU SW to limit knock makes sense, all SW is meant to to be further developed. What puzzles me is why BMW then doesn't try to make sure the cars get updated. I had to ask close to push to get the dealer to do mine. Which make it hard to believe BMW intended to decrease knock and engine failure on delivered cars. 240E was only released in the very end of the S65 production cycle right?

[MFKN3]

Originally Posted by aus

A

Maybe 5 other cases in Oz??: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...02&postcount=4

Yup, you can add me to the list and I know 3 other local M3's that aren't on this list that also had BF. It was a few years ago. Started it up one morning and it was rattling like a mofo from rod knock. BMW provided zero assistance and denied any issues and it cost me about $30k to rebuild.

[///M Power-Belgium]

After years of reading and listening to S65's videos from all over the world .

This came out of my database about our S65 bearings ...
Amen !

[admranger]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

After years of reading and listening to S65's videos from all over the world .

This came out of my database about our S65 bearings ...
Amen !

[aus]

Originally Posted by MFKN3

Yup, you can add me to the list and I know 3 other local M3's that aren't on this list that also had BF. It was a few years ago. Started it up one morning and it was rattling like a mofo from rod knock. BMW provided zero assistance and denied any issues and it cost me about $30k to rebuild.

Sorry to hear that. I think someone mentioned the warranty is only 2-3 years down under. It was 4 years, but it's been recently decreased to 3 years unless you're the original owner.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I agree that the aftermarket has created some great products that make cars more reliable and more fun to drive. The stock parts work, but you may have to change them more often. Plastic tank radiators addressed by aluminum aftermarket replacements for E36 and E39 cars, rattling vanos fixed by aftermarket anti rattle shim on 93-99 single vanos six cylinder motors.

Don't forget the rear shock mounts on the E36 that failed after 30,000 miles, or exhaust hangers that still fail early- though no one's fixed that yet.
There's also the rear subframe on the E46.

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

240E was only released in the very end of the S65 production cycle right?

240e came out mid 2012.
IIRC no more ECU updates were issued before production ended in 2013.

As you know the UK has yet to record an engine failure in the main M3 forum due to rod bearings....which includes a major Indy engine shop.
Yet Australia with a low sales volume reports quite a few.
At some point someone is going to wonder if there is any connection between high air intake temps and/or poor fuel quality and engine failures.

[aus]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

240e came out mid 2012.
IIRC no more ECU updates were issued before production ended in 2013.

As you know the UK has yet to record an engine failure in the main M3 forum due to rod bearings....which includes a major Indy engine shop.
Yet Australia with a low sales volume reports quite a few.
At some point someone is going to wonder if there is any connection between high air intake temps and/or poor fuel quality and engine failures.

Fuel quality has been discussed and AutoTalent paid for a handful of oil analysis using a mass-spec. They gave a little update on the result, but nothing definitive ever came of it that I know of.
.

[Gesler]

Any reports of rod bearing failure with the after market ones? It's been at least 1-2 years now since people started switching.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Gesler

Any reports of rod bearing failure with the after market ones? It's been at least 1-2 years now since people started switching.