Cost of rod bearing replacement

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

$400 a set x1000
$400,000 dollar order. My credit card doesnt go that high, anyone with a american express black want to chime in. LOL

i have 2 different ones, will pm you number now. should get me in their good graces for the month.

[Wendall]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I am not giving up but obtaining a hard to get part is easy with connections but obtaining a part that is not manufactred yet is something totally different.



$400 a set x1000
$400,000 dollar order. My credit card doesnt go that high, anyone with a american express black want to chime in. LOL

yeah that is one difficult group buy. It was wishful thinking.

[whats77inaname]

There has been some interesting posting going on in the VF thread. In the interest of keeping this car specific, and vendor neutral, I'm reposting part of it. Our new member WallyM5 posted this thread from the M5 board. Big thanks to Wally for that.

Y'all might want to read this:

Originally Posted by WallyM5

See post #7

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e63...-bearings.html

In addition to the aforementioned post #7, see also:

post #16

and post #10

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

There has been some interesting posting going on in the VF thread. In the interest of keeping this car specific, and vendor neutral, I'm reposting part of it. Our new member WallyM5 posted this thread from the M5 board. Big thanks to Wally for that.

Good call on pointing out this issue is vendor neutral and applies to everybody whether NA or FI.

[8k3]

Begs the question, why is BMW building these motors with tolerances so tight? Haven't they learned enough with all the bearing issues on the S54? On top of that, recommend the use of very thick oil? Something doesn't make sense. I wish an M engineer would chime in. I used to know one, have to dig up his card if I can find it.

[W///]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Sure we can find 1000 both M3 and M5 owners here to commit. Even if we don't go out and change the bearing straight away, even doing it later will be very useful especially with the additional conformed clearance. Kawasaki, why won't you explore further.

Count on me here.

I guarantee you couldn't get 1000 members to commit. No way in living hell.

Bet you can even convince 1000 people to switch away from TWS. Not to mention people will have to find a trustworthy shop to do the work (not a problem for guys out in Cali or big East coast cities).

[PandaM3]

Originally Posted by W///

I guarantee you couldn't get 1000 members to commit. No way in living hell.

Bet you can even convince 1000 people to switch away from TWS. Not to mention people will have to find a trustworthy shop to do the work (not a problem for guys out in Cali or big East coast cities).

Too bad we cant get the big east and west coast vendor shops to buy a bunch... Would be much cheaper to run bearings with greater clearances rather than get the crank out and resize the journals...

But before that where to happen, any downsides to running slightly larger clearances?

[e92zero]

it would be nice if vendor shops would buy a bunch. Given the number above by kawasaki00, if a vendor/shop can buy 1000 set of it and set them to us at $500 each. They can/would make $100k?

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by e92zero

it would be nice if vendor shops would buy a bunch. Given the number above by kawasaki00, if a vendor/shop can buy 1000 set of it and set them to us at $500 each. They can/would make $100k?

Don't think that there aren't some of them thinking the *exact* same thing *lol*

[e92zero]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

Don't think that there aren't some of them thinking the *exact* same thing *lol*

lol, i hope they do more than just 'thinking' so we get the -.001 bearings at the end.

It's recommended by the 3 experts that we can pull the motor and machine down the crank to obtain the right clearance. But, isn't the factory crank machined and then had surface treatment done to the journals. If we machine the crank down, we would lose that surface treatment that was done at the factory, no? And how many shops/factories around/available that can do the machining and surface treatment properly and/or up to same spec as the M-factory in various part of the country? I just don't have good experience with any auto shops that I came across all these years so I have a hard time trusting them. I don't know, maybe I am just unlucky or I don't have the right connections to a good shop.

I am no expert on these areas, kinda reading and learning on the side. It would seem to be a good option if we have undersized bearing to work with. Just my .02. Cheers

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by e92zero

lol, i hope they do more than just 'thinking' so we get the -.001 bearings at the end.

It's recommended by the 3 experts that we can pull the motor and machine down the crank to obtain the right clearance. But, isn't the factory crank machined and then had surface treatment done to the journals. If we machine the crank down, we would lose that surface treatment that was done at the factory, no? And how many shops/factories around/available that can do the machining and surface treatment properly and/or up to same spec as the M-factory in various part of the country? I just don't have good experience with any auto shops that I came across all these years so I have a hard time trusting them. I don't know, maybe I am just unlucky or I don't have the right connections to a good shop.

I am no expert on these areas, kinda reading and learning on the side. It would seem to be a good option if we have undersized bearing to work with. Just my .02. Cheers

The local auto shops will send out the crank to a local machine shop to have the journals sized and re-nitrided to put the factory surface back on. If you don't trust the machine shops in your area to do this, you can always ship the crank to somebody who can do this for you. You can ship your crank from coast to coast for $98.65 each direction from anywhere in the continental US. That's 47 pounds and insured for full cost of the crank. Cost to machine the journals, re-nitride for the bearing surface, and re-balance is about $525. So figure about $725 in shipping and machining costs if you don't have anybody in your area to do it. BTW, that's the costs, anybody who would do this for you would want to make a little profit for their time. So maybe figure $1,000 just to be safe.

[e92zero]

Originally Posted by regular guy

The local auto shops will send out the crank to a local machine shop to have the journals sized and re-nitrided to put the factory surface back on. If you don't trust the machine shops in your area to do this, you can always ship the crank to somebody who can do this for you. You can ship your crank from coast to coast for $98.65 each direction from anywhere in the continental US. That's 47 pounds and insured for full cost of the crank. Cost to machine the journals, re-nitride for the bearing surface, and re-balance is about $525. So figure about $725 in shipping and machining costs if you don't have anybody in your area to do it. BTW, that's the costs, anybody who would do this for you would want to make a little profit for their time. So maybe figure $1,000 just to be safe.

Thanks for the reply and the rough estimate. I tried to pm you but couldn't. Do you have the name of shops that you trust for these kind of crank work that you can provide us? The above cost that you estimated do not include the engine removal and assembly. Add that to the cost and the down time, it becomes quite a bit higher than if we can just do a simple rod bearing replacement with undersize bearings to obtain the correct clearance at the end?

I am not trying to argue against you or anything as I trust your expertise from your posts (learned a lot from them ) and I understand the best option would be to completely disassemble the engine and blueprint the engine with the right clearance. That's what I wanted to do in the future down the line with a stroker build. But for now, for some of us that are planning to replace the rod bearings as a bandit/maintenance item for the time being, having the undersize bearing as an option would be very nice? I know it's wishful thinking as we don't have any undersize bearings available (at the moment).

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by e92zero

Thanks for the reply and the rough estimate. I tried to pm you but couldn't. Do you have the name of shops that you trust for these kind of crank work that you can provide us? The above cost that you estimated do not include the engine removal and assembly. Add that to the cost and the down time, it becomes quite a bit higher than if we can just do a simple rod bearing replacement with undersize bearings to obtain the correct clearance at the end?

I do have a shop name on the left coast, but not sure if I'm allowed to post it. I added you to my contacts, so go ahead and PM away.

I am not trying to argue against you or anything as I trust your expertise from your posts (learned a lot from them ) and I understand the best option would be to completely disassemble the engine and blueprint the engine with the right clearance. That's what I wanted to do in the future down the line with a stroker build. But for now, for some of us that are planning to replace the rod bearings as a bandit/maintenance item for the time being, having the undersize bearing as an option would be very nice? I know it's wishful thinking as we don't have any undersize bearings available (at the moment).

I agree it's a real tough decision because of the costs and downtime involved. I too wish there were some -0.001's available, and like kawasaki, I tried using my contacts to see if I could find any. He has leverage with Clevite, but I don't. If somebody did have the capital to make a batch of 1000 bearing sets, then it might be worth making them with the Clevite Tri-Armor coating. The Tri-Armor is similar to the Calico coating, but from what I've read, it's state of the art. But then again, that might be Clevite marketing spin.

I have a spare crank, and am contemplating sending it out for machining to offer as a core replacement for those interested in doing this.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I do have a shop name on the left coast, but not sure if I'm allowed to post it. I added you to my contacts, so go ahead and PM away.



I agree it's a real tough decision because of the costs and downtime involved. I too wish there were some -0.001's available, and like kawasaki, I tried using my contacts to see if I could find any. He has leverage with Clevite, but I don't. If somebody did have the capital to make a batch of 1000 bearing sets, then it might be worth making them with the Clevite Tri-Armor coating. The Tri-Armor is similar to the Calico coating, but from what I've read, it's state of the art. But then again, that might be Clevite marketing spin.

I have a spare crank, and am contemplating sending it out for machining to offer as a core replacement for those interested in doing this.

Lets hope someone will take you up on that generous offer........ Having a properly sized crank and proper clearances is a much better alternative to changing bearings every 50K miles or so!

[aus]

Wouldn't 1,000 pairs mean 125 engines at 8 pairs an engine? Or even less if it's an S85? That seems doable if a vender is willing to organize it and make some money. You'd just have to cross post on all the M5 boards too.

Or is that 1,000 engines worth or bearings? In which case, that's not going to happen.

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I have recommended a mix to a few other guys running blowers, if mixing I would not mix the tws with mobil. It is two different base stock packages. Better option would be 5qt 0-40 and 4qt 15-50. The 15-50 has extra zinc also. The 15-50 is thinner than the tws cold so dont let the 15wt fool you.

I have been talking to one of the clevite guys about -.001 bearings but probably not looking too good on that unless the request comes from the manufacturer. They can get us some but the cost would be way too much for a few sets. Need to order like a thousand sets to get good price.

Thanks again. How about using Euro Castrol 0W30 and 10W60 mixed 5 quarts and 4 quarts? Is their base stock compatible?

.

[W///]

Didn't think this was worth its own thread so I'll leave this here. Changed to Mobil1 0W-40 last night. 10 quarts of EU spec Mobil1(2 jugs) cost $50 at Walmart. Oil filter from dealership = $16. The car took about 9.3 quarts (I did let it drain overnight while I waited to get the filter).

Note:
- The RPMs do seem to move a tad faster. I notice it in between shifting gears. If I'm not quick, the RPM's drop too much and you don't get a smooth shift
- You could feel just how thick 10W60 was compared to 0W40 after you pour this stuff.

The most important part for switching to lighter oil was to get the oil temp to operating levels faster. My commute to work is about 12 miles, and involves almost all country roads and highway. Especially during the winter, the car wouldn't even reach 210.

This morning, it was in the low 60F. I do notice that the oil temp reaches 180ish faster than when it was on Liqui Moly 10W60. But it just camps there and doesn't go past 210 which is fine by me.

At this point in my commute, the oil temp used to be at around 170F, now it's closer to 200F.


Is all this enough to help the rod bearings during cold weather? That's for you to decide. I'm happy with it (well maybe happier), and will do 5k miles interval from now on. I'm hoping to get new rod bearings within 10k miles.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by W///

Didn't think this was worth its own thread so I'll leave this here. Changed to Mobil1 0W-40 last night. 10 quarts of EU spec Mobil1(2 jugs) cost $50 at Walmart. Oil filter from dealership = $16. The car took about 9.3 quarts (I did let it drain overnight while I waited to get the filter).

Note:
- The RPMs do seem to move a tad faster. I notice it in between shifting gears. If I'm not quick, the RPM's drop too much and you don't get a smooth shift
- You could feel just how thick 10W60 was compared to 0W40 after you pour this stuff.

The most important part for switching to lighter oil was to get the oil temp to operating levels faster. My commute to work is about 12 miles, and involves almost all country roads and highway. Especially during the winter, the car wouldn't even reach 210.

This morning, it was in the low 60F. I do notice that the oil temp reaches 180ish faster than when it was on Liqui Moly 10W60. But it just camps there and doesn't go past 210 which is fine by me.

At this point in my commute, the oil temp used to be at around 170F, now it's closer to 200F.


Is all this enough to help the rod bearings during cold weather? That's for you to decide. I'm happy with it (well maybe happier), and will do 5k miles interval from now on. I'm hoping to get new rod bearings within 10k miles.

With the tight clearances in the S65 getting to temp faster is definitely better for the bearings....... I look forward to hearing your comments after you have lived with the 0W40 for a while.

[W///]

Small update on the 0W40. It was well over 90 degrees today in SC. It warms up quicker to 170 like I mentioned earlier, but then afterwards, it acts just like how 10W60 used to. In stop and go traffic, temp got up to 220, which is identical as before. Next time I go on a mountain drive, I'll report back.

So far so good.

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by W///

Small update on the 0W40. It was well over 90 degrees today in SC. It warms up quicker to 170 like I mentioned earlier, but then afterwards, it acts just like how 10W60 used to. In stop and go traffic, temp got up to 220, which is identical as before. Next time I go on a mountain drive, I'll report back.

So far so good.

I think what I would be worrying about is that at 100 degrees C (around 212 degrees F), 0W-40 is nearly 50% less viscous than 10W-60. My concern is that you are trading one viscosity problem (cold starts) for another (operating temps). That being said, I will be eager to see how 0W-40 performs over the long run. I am also curious if your engine will eat more of the thinner oil.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by JEllis

I think what I would be worrying about is that at 100 degrees C (around 212 degrees F), 0W-40 is nearly 50% less viscous than 10W-60. My concern is that you are trading one viscosity problem (cold starts) for another (operating temps). That being said, I will be eager to see how 0W-40 performs over the long run. I am also curious if your engine will eat more of the thinner oil.

10W60 is known to shear into a 40W within a 1000 miles so the numbers you are quoting are not applicable here. The 0W40 is certified for use in cars that are just as or even more taxing on oil than the S65/S85 and it has all the viscosity you need as referenced by it's HTHS number of 3.8.

The 10W60 is more marketing than a requirement......BMW's agreement with Castrol and their development costs for Castrol to make a specific "M" oil has to be justified somehow! The blanket recommendation of TWS 10W60 with no alternatives or chart showing recommended viscosity depending on outside temperature is a dead giveaway of this marketing agreement!

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by JEllis

I think what I would be worrying about is that at 100 degrees C (around 212 degrees F), 0W-40 is nearly 50% less viscous than 10W-60. My concern is that you are trading one viscosity problem (cold starts) for another (operating temps). That being said, I will be eager to see how 0W-40 performs over the long run. I am also curious if your engine will eat more of the thinner oil.

The 0-40 is being run by alot of gtr guys that make way more power than even a blown m3 does. The cylinder pressure in them is probably double what we make. Unless the oil is being run over 260 then it is not near as thin as you think. Shoot, we race a 40wt to over 10k rpm for hours on end at 300 degrees. Granted in a thousand miles it is used up but the point is a 40wt is much stronger than what it is given credit for.
I have been running it for 2 oil changes and I have not added oil yet, it does not burn enough to even notice. I change it every 4k miles just because it is lighter and the fact it takes 15 minutes and cost 60 bucks.

[W///]

Originally Posted by JEllis

I think what I would be worrying about is that at 100 degrees C (around 212 degrees F), 0W-40 is nearly 50% less viscous than 10W-60. My concern is that you are trading one viscosity problem (cold starts) for another (operating temps). That being said, I will be eager to see how 0W-40 performs over the long run. I am also curious if your engine will eat more of the thinner oil.

In terms of the way it acts in daily driving conditions, it's the same. Like I said, 93F heat, in stop and go situations, it didn't go any higher than my old 10W60 did, but it does heat up to 170 faster.

I will keep an eye out when I go for a more spirited run, and check the oil consumption over my 5000 mile interval.

P.S. My car has never seen temps over 240F on any oil. So I can't comment for guys that track their M's in hot weather.