The unacceptable danger of modern track-day coaching - Road & Track

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

A robot could do that but the reason why it is not realistic to not have to make any adjustments is the track, weather, tires, car, and YOU are all never in the exact same condition lap after lap. Is a steering correction required if one of those variables change? Sometimes.

Ah OK...I've always gone for a smooth style of fast driving so I was wondering why a more aggressive style might give a benefit.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Ah OK...I've always gone for a smooth style of fast driving so I was wondering why a more aggressive style might give a benefit.

I am faster with an aggressive style.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Ah OK...I've always gone for a smooth style of fast driving so I was wondering why a more aggressive style might give a benefit.

well i would say even smooth driving needs corrections here and there.

[armyav8tor]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Ah OK...I've always gone for a smooth style of fast driving so I was wondering why a more aggressive style might give a benefit.

I follow F1 religiously which is why I am in the camp that thinks smoother is faster. Now, there's a difference between going for the fastest lap and racing. I think it takes too much concentration to drive smooth and race at the same time so drivers drive more sloppy during a race because their brains are overloaded with other tasks. In qualifying though, those guys are purely focused on lap times and they are extremely smooth or at least their fastest lap will be where they are the smoothest. At that level, too much slip going out of a corner will cost them P1. So, when I saw that video a few pages back of that dude seesawing the crap out of the steering wheel, it made me rethink. I have literally never seen anyone drive like that before, and it may work for him but it makes me wonder why. Knowing the level of grip is seat of the pants, I drive on street tires at HPDE because it is easier to exceed that level of grip so it is fun and a challenge for me to play at the edge where it is the fastest. I'm at the point where I should move to race compound because I have extracted all the performance out of street tires. But through it all, I've been smooth with my steering inputs. I try to be precise to the point where I put my steering input in once and hold it, only making small adjustments, where it is just counter pressure on the steering wheel instead of actual movements. The reality is that it is improbable since we are not robots as already discussed. But that is the way we fly helicopters and that is my mindset and approach to driving. I thought it was validated through watching how smooth those F1 guys drive. That video of the dude driving the Porsche though, I was like WTF? Looked like he was seesawing the wheel for the sake of seesawing, seemed very counter productive! I would like to know how he ranks amongst his peers in terms of speed. Ayrton Senna was not considered a smooth driver, especially with his throttle inputs, so who knows.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

I follow F1 religiously which is why I am in the camp that thinks smoother is faster. Now, there's a difference between going for the fastest lap and racing. I think it takes too much concentration to drive smooth and race at the same time so drivers drive more sloppy during a race because their brains are overloaded with other tasks. In qualifying though, those guys are purely focused on lap times and they are extremely smooth or at least their fastest lap will be where they are the smoothest. At that level, too much slip going out of a corner will cost them P1. So, when I saw that video a few pages back of that dude seesawing the crap out of the steering wheel, it made me rethink. I have literally never seen anyone drive like that before, and it may work for him but it makes me wonder why. Knowing the level of grip is seat of the pants, I drive on street tires at HPDE because it is easier to exceed that level of grip so it is fun and a challenge for me to play at the edge where it is the fastest. I'm at the point where I should move to race compound because I have extracted all the performance out of street tires. But through it all, I've been smooth with my steering inputs. I try to be precise to the point where I put my steering input in once and hold it, only making small adjustments, where it is just counter pressure on the steering wheel instead of actual movements. The reality is that it is improbable since we are not robots as already discussed. But that is the way we fly helicopters and that is my mindset and approach to driving. I thought it was validated through watching how smooth those F1 guys drive. That video of the dude driving the Porsche though, I was like WTF? Looked like he was seesawing the wheel for the sake of seesawing, seemed very counter productive! I would like to know how he ranks amongst his peers in terms of speed. Ayrton Senna was not considered a smooth driver, especially with his throttle inputs, so who knows.

No dude, that Porsche driver is reacting to what the car is doing. He's going at a pace where the rear end constantly steps out (which may be an indication that the rear is pushing much faster than the front end's ability to grip/keep-up) and he's constantly correcting it. Are we talking about the same video?

I initially mentioned saw'ing as a way of getting thru some corners faster (active), as well as fighting understeers, but the discussions thereafter seem to have migrated to seesaw'ing as a way to correct slides (reactive). The saw'ing I'm talking about is, in certain corners, doing it in 2 to 3 slightly-exaggerated steering motions (i.e. break the arc into 2 to 3 sections): jerk the steering in, immediately pull back, jerk it back, pull back, etc, but all without the imaginary pendulum laterally swinging out beyond left & right side body panels. That's is a very active steering inputs, whereas seesaw'ing to counter oversteers is a reaction. 2 different things.

[pkimM3r]

are you guys referring to the pcar driver at buttonwillow i posted?

sometimes, you have steer left right left right just to go straight. the steering may look like that but if you watch the path of the car, its going in a straight line and very fast. i havent gotten to speeds where im like that but i do have plenty of moments of countersteer reacting to the car and keeping it in the path i intended to be on. otherwise i would have dirt sprayed on my face

[Sleeper519]

Originally Posted by OC3

No dude, that Porsche driver is reacting to what the car is doing. He's going at a pace where the rear end constantly steps out (which may be an indication that the rear is pushing much faster than the front end's ability to grip/keep-up) and he's constantly correcting it. Are we talking about the same video?

I initially mentioned saw'ing as a way of getting thru some corners faster (active), as well as fighting understeers, but the discussions thereafter seem to have migrated to seesaw'ing as a way to correct slides (reactive). The saw'ing I'm talking about is, in certain corners, doing it in 2 to 3 slightly-exaggerated steering motions (i.e. break the arc into 2 to 3 sections): jerk the steering in, immediately pull back, jerk it back, pull back, etc, but all without the imaginary pendulum laterally swinging out beyond left & right side body panels. That's is a very active steering inputs, whereas seesaw'ing to counter oversteers is a reaction. 2 different things.

+1. Well said.

I haven't heard it put that way before but that is exactly what I do. I do agree with armyav8tor that, overall, smoother is generally better (and faster). But, I always think of Turn In as a process, not an event, meaning that from the turn-in point to apex is not one singular instantaneous steering wheel move. A past instructor called it "cheating" into the corner. I divide it into 2 or 3 smaller corrective-type movements, feeling the level of grip at each point in time. It is indeed 'active', as you put it. I do some reactive see-sawing on certain carousel-type corners where you are throttle steering and right on the edge of adhesion and need to make many 'reactive' type steering adjustments as the rear end begins to step out.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by pkimM3r

are you guys referring to the pcar driver at buttonwillow i posted?

sometimes, you have steer left right left right just to go straight. the steering may look like that but if you watch the path of the car, its going in a straight line and very fast. i havent gotten to speeds where im like that but i do have plenty of moments of countersteer reacting to the car and keeping it in the path i intended to be on. otherwise i would have dirt sprayed on my face

For some reason, I thought @Armyav8tor was referring to this video.

But, in scrolling back on this thread, I didn't see it being posted. It must've been posted on another thread...

.

[pkimM3r]

yeah i didn't notice it in here neither...i think i put it in a separate thread and then some how to drive with nannies off thread.

i have a thread from my ACS track day with BMW CCA. you can see the total difference in how i drive alone, vs. with someone in the car. the latter is very boring

[armyav8tor]

Originally Posted by OC3

For some reason, I thought @Armyav8tor was referring to this video.

But, in scrolling back on this thread, I didn't see it being posted. It must've been posted on another thread...

.

Yup, that's the one. I get lost in the forums sometimes, thought the video was from this thread... LOL

[armyav8tor]

Originally Posted by OC3

No dude, that Porsche driver is reacting to what the car is doing. He's going at a pace where the rear end constantly steps out (which may be an indication that the rear is pushing much faster than the front end's ability to grip/keep-up) and he's constantly correcting it. Are we talking about the same video?

I initially mentioned saw'ing as a way of getting thru some corners faster (active), as well as fighting understeers, but the discussions thereafter seem to have migrated to seesaw'ing as a way to correct slides (reactive). The saw'ing I'm talking about is, in certain corners, doing it in 2 to 3 slightly-exaggerated steering motions (i.e. break the arc into 2 to 3 sections): jerk the steering in, immediately pull back, jerk it back, pull back, etc, but all without the imaginary pendulum laterally swinging out beyond left & right side body panels. That's is a very active steering inputs, whereas seesaw'ing to counter oversteers is a reaction. 2 different things.

Originally Posted by Sleeper519

+1. Well said.

I haven't heard it put that way before but that is exactly what I do. I do agree with armyav8tor that, overall, smoother is generally better (and faster). But, I always think of Turn In as a process, not an event, meaning that from the turn-in point to apex is not one singular instantaneous steering wheel move. A past instructor called it "cheating" into the corner. I divide it into 2 or 3 smaller corrective-type movements, feeling the level of grip at each point in time. It is indeed 'active', as you put it. I do some reactive see-sawing on certain carousel-type corners where you are throttle steering and right on the edge of adhesion and need to make many 'reactive' type steering adjustments as the rear end begins to step out.

I think I understand what you guys are saying. If the car is understeering and doesn't want to turn-in, take out the steering input and put it back in, repeat until the car submits.

But back to that Porsche driver, he would have so much less work if he would just take out a hair of throttle. I couldn't imagine that as the fastest way to get around the track, as he's gone beyond where the optimal traction point is. I can see a few corrections, but what he was doing is to the extreme, I've seen rally car drivers do less with the steering wheel. Whatever, if he's winning races, who am I to judge. :P

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

I think I understand what you guys are saying. If the car is understeering and doesn't want to turn-in, take out the steering input and put it back in, repeat until the car submits.

But back to that Porsche driver, he would have so much less work if he would just take out a hair of throttle. I couldn't imagine that as the fastest way to get around the track, as he's gone beyond where the optimal traction point is. I can see a few corrections, but what he was doing is to the extreme, I've seen rally car drivers do less with the steering wheel. Whatever, if he's winning races, who am I to judge. :P

i think its called being on full tilt! lol....

i saw some of you vids.. you make corrections too!

[OC3]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

I think I understand what you guys are saying. If the car is understeering and doesn't want to turn-in, take out the steering input and put it back in, repeat until the car submits.

This is how I would describe it (the diagram was drawn in MS Paint, so don't laugh And, obviously, the lines drawn aren't ideal and are actually drawn to exaggerate my point).

You are entering a corner and arrive at point (A). And, the speed you are carrying (along with bunch of other factors like amount of tire grip, steering wheel position, etc, etc) is about to cause you to travel along the red line to get to point (B). Then, you have 3 options:

(i) maintain throttle and steering positions and understeer and move along the red line. Then, due to the front tires now pushing, you've lost speed by the time you get to point (B). Or, worse, follow the red line and go off; or,

(ii) reduce the speed and travel along the green line; or,

(iii) while maintaining speed (or, even increasing it a bit), actively jerk the steering wheel to the left and cause the car to go along what is illustrated as green line.

If you opt with (iii), then that initial jerking motion, if left unchecked, most likely will cause the car to oversteer and spin, per purple line. So, after the initial jerk, you immediately steer back and you arrive at point (B) along the green line. From point (B) to (C), repeat. Same for from point (C) to (D).

If you manage the degree of said steering jerks and unwinds, and repeat (hence, "saw"), there are some corners where this works very well, and you can carry higher speed through and not have the car get all upset. In other words, where otherwise you'd be understeering and pushing the front tires and scrubbing off speed, you can, with careful active series of steering inputs, carry speed and not drift off to the outside.

Due to the saw'ing actions, tight quick corners aren't good for this (unless the driver can saw super-rapidly per hyper shifter-go-kart pace ). Nor are long sweeping turns. Medium, slightly-extended turns are perfect because there's time and room for the driver to saw 2 to 3 times to complete the turn. Kind of like man-handling a heavy car that wasn't going to make the corner while carrying certain amount of speed.

You can almost look at this as converting what is analog (i.e. long smooth curve) to discretized digital segments (with each of those digital elemental bars not going outside of the overall curve). On that note, that logic can be applied to driving 'smoothly' (analog) vs lots of steering movements (digital).

[OC3]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

But back to that Porsche driver, he would have so much less work if he would just take out a hair of throttle. I couldn't imagine that as the fastest way to get around the track, as he's gone beyond where the optimal traction point is. I can see a few corrections, but what he was doing is to the extreme, I've seen rally car drivers do less with the steering wheel. Whatever, if he's winning races, who am I to judge. :P

Michael Lewis is a pro, or semi-pro, driver. He needs to haul ass in videos like this so that he can impress race teams and sponsors so that he can get a ride in pro series season.

Besides, I know this track very well, and to run at that pace in that type of car and tire, I don't see that he's correcting unnecessarily. Drive slower, don't need to correct as much.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by Sleeper519

+1. Well said.

I haven't heard it put that way before but that is exactly what I do. I do agree with armyav8tor that, overall, smoother is generally better (and faster). But, I always think of Turn In as a process, not an event, meaning that from the turn-in point to apex is not one singular instantaneous steering wheel move. A past instructor called it "cheating" into the corner. I divide it into 2 or 3 smaller corrective-type movements, feeling the level of grip at each point in time. It is indeed 'active', as you put it. I do some reactive see-sawing on certain carousel-type corners where you are throttle steering and right on the edge of adhesion and need to make many 'reactive' type steering adjustments as the rear end begins to step out.

Yep.

Process --> segment it into several steps.

Event --> one big blur.

[pkimM3r]

@oc3 you have sweeper going the wrong way in your diagram

[OC3]

^

[OC3]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Yeah, you're not going to see "seesawing" occurring when it can upset the chassis or tire contact patch (unless that is the desired outcome as in the case of a Scandinavian flick in rallying or drifting). For the most part the old saying "slow hands equals fast times" applies, and for the times when very rapid steering inputs are needed when grip is available, really good drivers (most do so unconsciously) mange the 3rd derivative (rate of acceleration) of steering wheel inputs. You can rapidly accelerate the velocity of the steering wheel but do so in a very smooth manner just as when you approach the level of steering lock needed you decelerate your input in a smooth manner. The very best drivers do so all the time. They know exactly how to extract the most from the chassis and tire contact patches through weight transfer and slip angle management, and to do that you can't have perturbations in the chassis/tire system preventing maximum levels of grip.

You'll likely see quick wheel movements when the front tires are over the limits and the driver is undoing steering input to regain front traction as one example. Or perhaps in a fast sweeper when the front is over the peak of the tractive force vs slip angle line, one can feel for what level of slip angle up front achieves the desired grip or lack of grip as the case may be.

You mean like this?

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by OC3

Michael Lewis is a pro, or semi-pro, driver. He needs to haul ass in videos like this so that he can impress race teams and sponsors so that he can get a ride in pro series season.

Besides, I know this track very well, and to run at that pace in that type of car and tire, I don't see that he's correcting unnecessarily. Drive slower, don't need to correct as much.

I've had the privilege of being driven on track by a range of race and championship winning race drivers (including Martin Brundle, some 24 hour Le Mans Porsche winner, a Touring car champion etc) and none of them drove at all like that....except when they were purposely trying to pitch the car sideways into a bend for effect.
I'd say that guy was overdriving the car.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by OC3

You mean like this?

drifting in a bongo truck. priceless.

[Feuerbach]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

I think I understand what you guys are saying. If the car is understeering and doesn't want to turn-in, take out the steering input and put it back in, repeat until the car submits.

But back to that Porsche driver, he would have so much less work if he would just take out a hair of throttle. I couldn't imagine that as the fastest way to get around the track, as he's gone beyond where the optimal traction point is. I can see a few corrections, but what he was doing is to the extreme, I've seen rally car drivers do less with the steering wheel. Whatever, if he's winning races, who am I to judge. :P

I watched that video with my hand over the bottom half of the screen blocking me from seeing the drivers inputs. The car is smooth and on a near perfect line through the course, its an interesting exercise.

As for being smooth and flying, if you were hovering a helicopter in a storm would your inputs not be extremely quick and aggressive to fight off downdrafts and crosswinds to keep you stationary... You have to feel what is happening to the machine, no time for VVI cross-checks or GPS drift, similar to a car being driven 10/10ths. The end result of all those inputs is actually stability and balance.

[pkimM3r]

on which tracks? i would think that this is a tiny track compared to the speed of the car hes driving. grip levels are prob low as heck too. but yeah hes pretty much just going full throttle the whole lap. lol