Track forum general chit chat.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by kyippee

This was fun. Not PB session, but close. Bouncey time at turn 9 entrance and right side of turn 11 braking zone

At least you missed it. Back in March, I had an errant exhaust hanger fly up and chip my headlamp lens, gouge the fender (went right through the clear bra), and chip the windshield.

[k_mann]

Originally Posted by dparm

At least you missed it. Back in March, I had an errant exhaust hanger fly up and chip my headlamp lens, gouge the fender (went right through the clear bra), and chip the windshield.

Man you just don't realize what little things can cause damage at speed around a track!

[dparm]

Originally Posted by aututto

Man you just don't realize what little things can cause damage at speed around a track!

Oh when I saw it coming I knew it would be bad. I was doing 110 in traffic, was not about to swerve to avoid it...$2000 in paintwork is a lot less than $20000 in frame damage (or a totalled car).

[WhiteM3EMC]

Originally Posted by dparm

Oh when I saw it coming I knew it would be bad. I was doing 110 in traffic, was not about to swerve to avoid it...$2000 in paintwork is a lot less than $20000 in frame damage (or a totalled car).

One of my buddies was following a car who spun in the Esses at Road Atlanta, the rocks that kicked up went straight through his windshield and fender

[kyippee]

Crazy thing is all the cars seen in the cover pic of the photo, we're all friends. It fell off that 997 GT3 RS with heavy mods, bounced and hit the yellow S2000, then that kicked it towards me lol

[dparm]

I feel stupid for asking this, but would you guys trust a shop that "does alignments by hand" and doesn't use a rack? I understand that a rack is (A) expensive and (B) uses up valuable floor space, but how good are those jigs I see for manual alignments?

My gut tells me that a good operator on a rack with lasers will always be the better choice.

As I look into the future of getting a coilover conversion kit, I realized my shop does NOT have a rack and prides themselves on doing alignments by hand. I'm extremely skeptical of this attitude. I have a separate shop that I use almost exclusively for alignments because their guy is really fucking good and they have a fully-optioned rack.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dparm

I feel stupid for asking this, but would you guys trust a shop that "does alignments by hand" and doesn't use a rack? I understand that a rack is (A) expensive and (B) uses up valuable floor space, but how good are those jigs I see for manual alignments?

My gut tells me that a good operator on a rack with lasers will always be the better choice.

As I look into the future of getting a coilover conversion kit, I realized my shop does NOT have a rack and prides themselves on doing alignments by hand. I'm extremely skeptical of this attitude. I have a separate shop that I use almost exclusively for alignments because their guy is really fucking good and they have a fully-optioned rack.

I use smart strings and have done my own alignment for 4+ years. But if I were to pay someone I'd want them to use better equipment than what I have.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

I use smart strings and have done my own alignment for 4+ years. But if I were to pay someone I'd want them to use better equipment than what I have.

YES! I was struggling to articulate it, but that's how I feel. I'm spending money because I don't have the time, know-how, or equipment to do it myself.

[roastbeef]

I've seen quite a few reputable shops "string" cars.

[tsk94]

A large majority of professional race teams, including F1, use string systems for alignments.

Like ThunderMoose I also use a string setup for aligning my car and have been happy with it. I wouldn't be worried about a shop using a string system at all - very accurate method.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by tsk94

A large majority of professional race teams, including F1, use string systems for alignments.

Like ThunderMoose I also use a string setup for aligning my car and have been happy with it. I wouldn't be worried about a shop using a string system at all - very accurate method.

Okay, good info. Thanks. Maybe I should ask it a different way: given the option, would you rather have reputable shop A string it or reputable shop B get it on a laser rack?

I'd almost be curious to have the coilovers installed, let them string it, then drive straight to the other shop with the laser rack and see the numbers.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by dparm

I'd almost be curious to have the coilovers installed, let them string it, then drive straight to the other shop with the laser rack and see the numbers.

i like this idea. have the first shop write down all the numbers and then explain to the second shop you just want a reading and print out. might be less money if they don't have to turn wrenches.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by dparm

Okay, good info. Thanks. Maybe I should ask it a different way: given the option, would you rather have reputable shop A string it or reputable shop B get it on a laser rack?

I'd almost be curious to have the coilovers installed, let them string it, then drive straight to the other shop with the laser rack and see the numbers.

That would be an interesting test.

A few years ago I probably would of said laser rack. Now after doing a bunch of string alignments myself and seeing first hand it's accuracy I would probably lean that direction. That being said, if it's they are a reputable shop I would feel comfortable with whatever system they use.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

E9X M3 traction control at any level makes the car slower. Period. MDM, Euro MDM...I can drive a faster and cleaner lap without the nannies.

One area where the E9X M3 is much better than the E46 M3 is suspension design. When you apply throttle, weight shifts rearwards and squats. As the rear suspension compresses there is an increase of toe in. This makes the rear end want to straighten up. Combined with a decent LSD which provides a lot of lock up (although too slow)...it is hard to spin the car.

The E46 M3 does the opposite. It toes out so if you get sideways, you need more opposite lock and much more precision on the throttle. It find it pretty easy to spin my E46 M3.

Ironically, I never spun the E46M3 on track and I did a cubic metric butt-ton of tracks in that car (4 before it set foot in the US!). E90M3? Yeah. BTDT...complete driver error. My 12 cylinder turbo diesel excuse generator decided that it was because I hadn't fully healed from knee surgery.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by admranger

Ironically, I never spun the E46M3 on track and I did a cubic metric butt-ton of tracks in that car (4 before it set foot in the US!). E90M3? Yeah. BTDT...complete driver error. My 12 cylinder turbo diesel excuse generator decided that it was because I hadn't fully healed from knee surgery.

So just how long is the not fully healed from knee surgery excuse good for? Looks like I’m headed there again late summer - would be nice to know how long I can run that excuse afterwards before having to find a new one.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by dparm

I feel stupid for asking this, but would you guys trust a shop that "does alignments by hand" and doesn't use a rack? I understand that a rack is (A) expensive and (B) uses up valuable floor space, but how good are those jigs I see for manual alignments?

My gut tells me that a good operator on a rack with lasers will always be the better choice.

As I look into the future of getting a coilover conversion kit, I realized my shop does NOT have a rack and prides themselves on doing alignments by hand. I'm extremely skeptical of this attitude. I have a separate shop that I use almost exclusively for alignments because their guy is really fucking good and they have a fully-optioned rack.

If a person has the skill set to do the string and the proper tools, it will be a badass alignment. I feel like string alignments are a dying art.

At the end of the day the lasers are computerized and have to be calibrated etc. You can take a car straight off a rack with a fresh alignment, rerack it, and it’s possible to end up with different numbers just by virtue of how the rack is. Strings being mechanical there’s significantly less margin for error IMO.
I get my car aligned at a laser rack cause it’s convenient but if there was a person who was skilled in string-setup convenient to me, I would use them. There’s a reason tons of race teams mainly use this method too.
In my mind the only reason a shop has a rack is because it’s faster and they can get through more cars quicker than with strings.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

So just how long is the not fully healed from knee surgery excuse good for? Looks like I’m headed there again late summer - would be nice to know how long I can run that excuse afterwards before having to find a new one.

It depends on the type of knee surgery. My wife has had several so these have come up to explain various bits of clumsiness.

If they're cleaning up arthritis, you get up to 1 year with excuses like "surgeon must have left some tools in there because my knee stopped working for a second"

If it's a partial knee replacement, you get up to 2 years with excuses such as "Can I borrow a 10 mm socket and wrench later? These screws in my knee aren't properly torqued. I should have had pressed in studs, but insurance wouldn't cover it"

For a total knee replacement, you can blame anything from grounding wires, power lines, strong magnets, to antennas. If you're having issues with one or two corners in particular, just say your knee is picking up the local AM radio station in turns X and Y.

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by Kelse92

If a person has the skill set to do the string and the proper tools, it will be a badass alignment. I feel like string alignments are a dying art.

At the end of the day the lasers are computerized and have to be calibrated etc. You can take a car straight off a rack with a fresh alignment, rerack it, and it’s possible to end up with different numbers just by virtue of how the rack is. Strings being mechanical there’s significantly less margin for error IMO.
I get my car aligned at a laser rack cause it’s convenient but if there was a person who was skilled in string-setup convenient to me, I would use them. There’s a reason tons of race teams mainly use this method too.
In my mind the only reason a shop has a rack is because it’s faster and they can get through more cars quicker than with strings.

Well said. The Grand-Am tech I talked to says they have tried both and were getting too much variability with the laser rack but not with the strings. For lowly peons like me, I like the strings to be able to try tweaking setups and not have to pay every time. I don't have to have a compromise between street and track if it is going to be a while between events as well.
I'd say either can be screwed up though but I would think most folks that use strings use them because they want that specific method and they know what they are doing and want to get that last bit of precision. Like I said though, either way can be screwed up...

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by Ximian

It depends on the type of knee surgery. My wife has had several so these have come up to explain various bits of clumsiness.

If they're cleaning up arthritis, you get up to 1 year with excuses like "surgeon must have left some tools in there because my knee stopped working for a second"

If it's a partial knee replacement, you get up to 2 years with excuses such as "Can I borrow a 10 mm socket and wrench later? These screws in my knee aren't properly torqued. I should have had pressed in studs, but insurance wouldn't cover it"

For a total knee replacement, you can blame anything from grounding wires, power lines, strong magnets, to antennas. If you're having issues with one or two corners in particular, just say your knee is picking up the local AM radio station in turns X and Y.

Solid info right there

Also a good excuse as to why I drive a DCT

[fsmtnbiker]

Originally Posted by Kelse92

In my mind the only reason a shop has a rack is because it’s faster and they can get through more cars quicker than with strings.

It's basically this.

I worked at a shop that started out with strings and ended up with a laser rack. I much prefer working with lasers, especially on a double a-arm car where the camber adjuster changes caster and toe at the same time. Its really helpful to have a live readout as you do this and saves a TON of time. Having a skilled tech makes a huge difference with either system. The really trick setup is having the corner scales built into the alignment rack, so that you can do ride heights, corner balance, and alignment all at the same time.

Strings are also portable which is a great advantage if someone is doing their own alignments. This is also why race teams basically always use strings - its consistent from the shop to the track since they're using the same methods and setup pad.

[slicer]

Originally Posted by dparm

Okay, good info. Thanks. Maybe I should ask it a different way: given the option, would you rather have reputable shop A string it or reputable shop B get it on a laser rack?

I'd almost be curious to have the coilovers installed, let them string it, then drive straight to the other shop with the laser rack and see the numbers.

I too was skeptical about string alignments in the past. However the reality is that a laser is simply a straight line - just like a string! The big advantage of a laser alignment machine is that it can be faster. Adjustments are instantly displayed on the screen. Great for a shop pushing out alignments. However, I have had issues with the laser machines being able to accommodate track alignments. Some machines allegedly can not handle high camber settings. I have had challenges finding a good shop to perform alignments for me once I switched over to adjustable SPL arms. As a result, I resorted to performing my own alignments using strings, laser level (to make sure all 4 corners were level), turn plates for the front (needed to measure caster properly), and slip plates for the rear. I would much rather use a competent shop with strings over a high volume shop that uses a laser machine.

[Ximian]

Got here quicker than I thought it would but won't be installed in time for the next track day on the 2nd