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02-13-2008, 09:52 AM | #89 | ||
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What is the value of a high rpm engine? Quote:
Secondly, engine weights are regulated under SAE Standard J2038, and although I don't know what the DIN/EC standard is that regulates these things, you can absolutely bet that there is one. Are they different? Almost certainly yes, but by how much? I don't know, but I have been told that the standards are different only in detail. That is to say, published weights, DIN/EC to SAE will only vary by relatively small amounts. Of course, this isn't proof. If anybody actually has specific info on this, I'd appreciate hearing about it. Meanwhile, Swamp, you can believe that the Mercedes vs BMW engine weights are published under the same standard - although I'm quite sure you won't. Bruce |
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02-13-2008, 09:56 AM | #90 |
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, good stuff. In regards to a comparison between the two, I guess the reason why they are being compared is because both are world class sports cars/coupes. I am a huge BMW fan. My dad has a 7 series that made me fall in love. For such a huge sedan, it did all the right things. It handled well(esp. for its size), it was quick, it looked good, it had great brakes, and the amount of refinement and quality was unsurpassed. My brother just picked up a 335 Coupe about 6 months ago and equals all points of the 7series, but hauls ass while looking even better. Its very nice cruising down the road being so isolated from the elements, it really gives you a different view on the driving experience. I know back when I was on my huge BMW kick from the 7 series, all of this technology mattered to me to. Vanos, variable intake/exhaust cam timing, variable lift tech., and all of the different programming parameters that BMW now offers on all of their cars it seems. But in the end, if all of the technology that costs SOOOO much to develope could be done more simply and just as effectively, then why have it other than to just say "I have it." That is the approach the corvette team took. If a vette had Vanos tech in the engine, a completely programmable traction control/stability control system, and some fancy electronic user adjustable diff but was only .1sec faster around a track, then what good is it REALLY doing other than just making things more complicated and probably creating more problems than solutions. The vette team seems to operate by the simple philosophy known as KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. Many times, the best way to solve a problem is the most simple design. Its cheaper, it works 95% as well as the other much more expensive solution, and its more reliable. Leaf springs are a derivative of this philosophy. The pushrod LS3 V8 is another. Pull the motor from the Escalade, touch up the heads, lighten the valvetrain, employ some new machining specifications on the block for added strength and oil control, work the pistons for small, but numerous revisions and walla....you have 436hp and your getting 30mpg on the highway. I was able to get a best of a 12.49@115.54mph in my 08 C6 in completely stock trim. In the end, they are both great cars. BMW offers a great all around vehicle. One that can be tailored to the needs of each individual driver. They offer the flexability the vette does not and for those that bask in new technology, there is no substitute. I work with German engineers, their approach to many design ideas is often ingenious and very unique. There are certainly more simple ways to accomplish the task(see honda and toyota), but in the end the Germans are responsible for the technology push as they are more often on the frontier in their never ending quest for very advanced systems in regards to all aspects of the driving experience. Buy what pleases you, but at the same time, don't trash somebody elses pride and joy. It may not be your cup of tea, but the world isn't made of people like "you".
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02-13-2008, 10:41 AM | #91 | |
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good post, I too use to purchase BMW's, my father only buys a Benz, but what people don't realize it's good to drive other vehicles and open up your mind. I like all high performance vehicles, each has great attributes and each has it's strengths and weakness. hope to see you at one of the drag events @ Moroso, a lot of corvette forum members go there, and run sub 12 sec times with just bolt ons Last edited by spearfisher; 02-13-2008 at 12:30 PM.. |
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02-13-2008, 12:31 PM | #92 | |
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02-14-2008, 02:15 AM | #93 | ||
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If the word handling was such subjective term as you perceive it to be, we might as well place F-350 dually as the ultimate handling machine or maybe Ford fusion or any deviation thereof. My M3 rides on 550lb springs and poly bushings. I classify its handling as mediocre at best, certainly not because it will be faster on track than average car, but because handling entails so much more than how fast you go around the track. Level of damping, rebound, braking balance, weight shift and overall optimization is all part of the equation. (E90 325i handles better than E36 M3. It is newer and better optimized design). Taking all this into account M3 is few million light years ahead of vette. It was since E21 generation. Sure, vette is fast and has tons of grip, but it is infinitely more unstable in the corner if it gets upset, and you better be a master of opposite lock if back end drifts away. Inherent design of leaf springs will always lag behind handling prowess of multi-link rear. My opinion is that corvette makes up for its lack of better suspension design with more rubber. C6 Z06 carries 275s front and 325/30 series back. Now compare that to NEW M3, 245f/265b. So now you have a lighter car with more rubber. Even if you had truck suspension (which you do heh) you would grip so much more to the point where even mediocre suspension would stop being a bottleneck. Put the same tires on the heavier M3 and see how it would compare on the track. It would be a comical comparison at that point. I am not discrediting vette for what it is, but for what it is not. I appreciate the car for its intended purpose and for its low budget great performance. Is it a supercar in terms of speed performance? Yes. Is it best bang for the buck in universe? Yes. There is nothing wrong with old technology. I wouldn't doubt if vette has more durable and sturdier suspension, especially for street. M3s need suspension replacement every 50k to handle like they do. M3 probably has dozen more bushings than a vette, none of which help with durability. LSX engines aren't even remotely as maintenance needy as I-6 or the new V8. I could go on...but to draw parallels that old technology suspension is equivalent to handling of newer designs is absurd. It works, it is durable, it handles decently, but lets leave it at that. Swamp2, Seriously you have not just wrote this: Quote:
...still after everything, i want a big bad american V8 to abuse Last edited by malter2.0; 02-14-2008 at 02:31 AM.. |
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02-14-2008, 01:25 PM | #94 | ||||
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Interesting comments but I don’t agree with you on the following:
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2007 vette 2nd place 2006 vette 1st and 7th 2005 vette 1st and 2nd 2004 1st and 2nd the competitors that race in the GT1 class all use multi-link rear suspension, Aston Martin Saleen Ferrari, who?, yes Ferrari Lamborghini Yet wow look how well the vette finishes each year, mind you it's a different suspension, but if the ZO6 did not have a good suspension, it would not do such a good time on the ring, 7:42, which is only 4 seconds slower than the mighty GTR. Quote:
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but you are 100% right if I was to scrap my leaf springs and go with coil overs I would handle and ride much better than now, damn, now I have to break my piggy bank, just when I thought I was done modding my car. and to my knowledge the M3 will have per side on the rear suspension 2 upper control arms 1 lower 1 tailing arm 1 track bar that is only 11 bushings inlcluding the one on the knuckle just for your information Last edited by spearfisher; 02-14-2008 at 03:07 PM.. |
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02-14-2008, 02:47 PM | #95 |
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[QUOTE=malter2.0;2143754](E90 325i handles better than E36 M3. It is newer and better optimized design). Taking all this into account M3 is few million light years ahead of vette. It was since E21 generation.
Sure, vette is fast and has tons of grip, but it is infinitely more unstable in the corner if it gets upset, and you better be a master of opposite lock if back end drifts away. Inherent design of leaf springs will always lag behind handling prowess of multi-link rear. My opinion is that corvette makes up for its lack of better suspension design with more rubber. C6 Z06 carries 275s front and 325/30 series back. Now compare that to NEW M3, 245f/265b. So now you have a lighter car with more rubber. Even if you had truck suspension (which you do heh) you would grip so much more to the point where even mediocre suspension would stop being a bottleneck. Put the same tires on the heavier M3 and see how it would compare on the track. It would be a comical comparison at that point. There is nothing wrong with old technology. I wouldn't doubt if vette has more durable and sturdier suspension, especially for street. M3s need suspension replacement every 50k to handle like they do. M3 probably has dozen more bushings than a Vette, none of which help with durability. LSX engines aren't even remotely as maintenance needy as I-6 or the new V8I could go on...but to draw parallels that old technology suspension is equivalent to handling of newer designs is absurd. It works, it is durable, it handles decently, but lets leave it at that. I would wager you have not driven the 08 Corvette, Or the M3 have you ? You ignored the parts about Porsche using the same technology in suspensions as they have for 50 years ! BMW has a winner in the New M3, Chevy has brought the Vette to levels that amaze, My question is how you can rate handling without driving a car ? This is not fantasy football, people make decisions from some facts they can glean from this forum, and misinformation, or information pulled out of some magazine articles doesn't mean you can't have an opinion its your right Basing a conclusion on information where you have some experience but have not actually tested something else is well ah misleading I can respect a lot of cars, learned from being a Porsche snob that there is a lot more than one marque. I had never owned a Corvette, I had not owned a BMW since a 2002 Tii and now own a 335 vert and will add the M3 The best thing you can do is drive some other cars without concern to who makes them, If you are a track guy, do It there Maybe you will see there are a lot of choices
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02-14-2008, 05:21 PM | #96 | |||||
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Agree that vette is trickier to drive at the limit. From your experience why is that? Quote:
M3 GTR in race version put out 444hp, which is some 60hp less than Z06 along with 3.0L of deficit in displacement. With similar power to Z06 it would have been more than 20 sec or maybe even more. Quote:
Handles better than which M3? E92? Quote:
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02-14-2008, 05:54 PM | #97 | |||||
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On the other hand, take American icon like Stingray - it never was a model of great handling car, just powerful straight line muscle car. Much like Porsche continued its path of great handling cars, chevy did also with power, which is why you don't see too many people drag racing their 911 turbos as you do people in supercharged C5 Z06s and C6 and bla bla bla... Quote:
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Agreed. You are entitled to your opinion 100%, especially since you drove both cars, but on the other hand I would not so easily discredit opinions of those who have read and researched a lot. Collectively, a certain product or "thing" is deemed as good or bad, as the average of all the opinions. Most of the magazine car reviewers have extensive car design experience or have worked for a long time in automotive industry, not to mention substantial track time. These people are professionals in their field and do this for living. On average their review of the car will be far more accurate than a weekend racer's opinion. I purposely say on average, as reviewers are not all created equal. Quote:
I like BMWs, but I am not a fanboy, as you might classify me. |
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02-14-2008, 08:17 PM | #98 |
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What exactly is the value of a progressive spring for a vehicle that will need to support a fairly constant mass? If the total m of the system is pretty much a constant, a spring with non-linear k should not provide any noticable benefit. One should be able to control the velocity dependent response characteristics of the suspension system with the damping ratio, which is F=-cv. Also, I believe the Corvette has a variable damping suspension system, which should allow for even futher control of the response characteristics of the suspension.
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02-14-2008, 09:41 PM | #99 | |
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So I stick by my statement. Much more entertaining is yours, You do realize the the two terms have nothing to do with each other? Apparently not. The number of links, layout of the linkage system and the device used to provide a spring force are all separate and can be mixed and matched at a designers will. |
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02-14-2008, 09:52 PM | #100 | |
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I too would like more information on European engine weight standards. I would expect all manufacturers to follow the regs if they exists. Does it makew fundamental sense to you that a 4l and 6.2l engine of more or less the same design can weigh very close to the same? |
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02-14-2008, 11:42 PM | #101 | |
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Damping and springs are two separate things. I believe vette on one of the packages (and caddy as well) have MR fluid suspension which can vary damping and rebound. Last edited by malter2.0; 02-15-2008 at 12:53 AM.. |
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02-15-2008, 12:17 AM | #102 | |
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Swamp2,
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Maybe you could write a nice email to technical support and headquarters of industry giants such as Bilstein, H&R, TEIN and tell them It is better to extract any desired non-linearity out of the suspension linkage design. Leaf springs have their purpose ...in trucking industry. Chevy can make them out of carbon nanotubes for all I care. |
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02-15-2008, 01:35 AM | #103 |
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the Vette leaf springs are low tech, even if they are turned the wrong way.
the M3 still uses an ancient strut front suspension and not an independant supnsion. its all irrelevent IMO - the fact is the 4 seat "sedan" M3 can keep up and surpass the dedicated two seat plastic sports car made by chevy. the fact that a sedan can keep up with a two seats sports cars is impressive enough for me.
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02-15-2008, 03:01 AM | #104 | ||
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Anyway, a highly non-linear spring might be useful in a truck where the vehicle mass can change drastically, but that is clearly not what you are talking about. I am not sure how non-linear progressive springs are for a car exactly, but they can't be that non-linear. In the case of the Corvette, assuming the leaf spring is fairly linear, what exactly is the problem? Knowing your vehicle mass will not change, you can still control for a significant part of the transient response with the dampers. Last edited by lucid; 02-15-2008 at 04:14 AM.. |
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02-15-2008, 06:45 AM | #105 | |
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Unlike most of you who are on here and have all of these theoretical opinions about how each car would perform under a certain track temp, rel. humidity, pressure, wet bulb, dry bulb, blah blah blah.....I am out there doing it. Drag strip, roadcourse, autox....I do them all and I have probably done more than 99% of this forum. In regards to suspension tuning, springs are about 10%. The other 90% is in tuning the shock. Have your opinion all you want about leaf springs, I just find it funny that you are trying to dismiss ANY car because of what it is sprung by. Go work with some IT cars and do some HPDE events and I promise you won't argue about "progressive" springs anymore(as if progressive springs are any sort of cutting edge tech. btw). Hell, for that matter, talk to some of the best autox'ers and ask them about their $200 springs or their $4k+ Motons/Penskes/Ohlins.
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02-15-2008, 08:24 AM | #106 | ||
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02-15-2008, 10:17 AM | #107 | ||
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So-o, in that context, with the LS3 and M3 engines having similar weights and overall sizes, and the LS3 having power and torque advantages (plus possible bsfc advantages), specifically what is the value of the M3's 8400 rpm red line vs the 6500 rpm red line of the LS3? The more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to believe that the LS3 really is "absolutely better in all regards, hands down". I'm perfectly willing to be disabused of that notion, however, so fire away, and maybe I can learn something. Thanks in advance, Bruce PS - I really am perfectly willing to believe that the Mercedes and BMW engines have similar weights, on general grounds that there are DIN/EC standards for such things, but also on technical grounds that the Merc and bimmer motors are built to differing engineering standards, very possibly of different grades of aluminum. The Merc engine, offered in larger volumes than the BMW unit across several different car lines (therefore amortization costs are lower per unit), still goes for $56K over the counter - so it really may be made of unobtanium. |
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02-15-2008, 12:29 PM | #108 | ||||
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The 04 C5 Z06 had a faster time around the ring also and has less HP also, and by the way has leaf springs, also it brakes worse that the M3 also, explain that.I really want you to explain this. Having auto-x a E46 M3 and a 08 C6, if you go full throttle a little early out of the corner with a E46 M3 you won’t go sideways or spin, do that in a C6 and you’ll face the other way or be putting in some quick counter steer. The complete opposite is I drove the ISF on Moroso and the Audi S4 on Homestead, the Audi is next near to impossible to go sideways on no matter throttle position, ISF easier to go sideways but very controllable (not much throttle feathering required, remember the throttle is not an on off switch) Quote:
wrong again, the C6R suspension can be ordered for a regular C6, but of course race parts, called the T1 suspension which can be purchased, but I doubt the ride is nice or the 1.5 inch ground clearance., T1 suspension parts available on the GM performance catalog. sit down let me explain. I’m pointing out that the CR6 is not a multi-link suspension and does quite well beating out other multi link suspension designs, you stated a multi-link suspension will always be superior performance wise, I don’t think so. By the way the definition of a multi-link suspension is one that does not use just 1 upper control arm 1 lower control arm 1 knuckle instead is uses multiple link points hence the name, example. All Acura’s use a rear multi-link suspension, and only on the rear, multi-link is not used on the front. Other types of suspension are: 1. SLA 2. MacPherson Strut 3. Solid Axle 4. Double wishbone Leaf springs is a type of spring used in one of these type of suspension but not a suspension type, because you can change the leaf spring on a vette and go with coil overs, does not change the suspension type, it’s still a SLA/double wishbone. Multi-link is a great design, but it’s how well the suspension is tweaked that determines how well it handles, as long as you have a good design base, hence no solid axle. Quote:
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sub-frame bushings all except for a few use 4 bushings but anyway the M3 does not have a dozen more bushings as you stated. Also reference to bushings wearing out, I know I’m not the only one that had front lower control arm bushings wearing out prematurely on the E46 M3 and E46 330, by the way that was not wear and tear, they usually failed prematurely, part defect, they wore out @14k on my M3 and 24k on my 330. I don’t think that will happen on the E92. But in this case your right, bushings on the vette don’t wear out pre-maturely but then we have other problems. Last edited by spearfisher; 02-15-2008 at 12:46 PM.. |
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02-15-2008, 02:07 PM | #109 | ||||||||||
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i ASKED whether lemans vette has leaf springs or not. i claimed nothing. Quote:
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lets count for measly e36 m3 for rear: 2 sway, 2 trail, 4 upper wishbone (2 on each corner), 4 lower arm (2 on each corner), 4 sub frame, 2 diff. add in 2 upper and lower rubber spring pads per corner which do disintegrate over time, which leaf springs dont have. crude drawing...courtesy of bimmerworld |
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