What cars outperform our M3 and have better avg MPG?

[conradb]

Carrera S is faster around the Nordschleife, and gets 27mpg hwy I believe.


Is there a technical reason why the M3 only gets 20mpg hwy? Why are other NA V8's with more HP getting better fuel economies? I'm no mechanical engineer. I'm rather curious.

Let's face it, the M3 is a DD for many of us. It's not a true track car. It is supposed to be practical and sporty. What gives?

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by dibxna

are they still being huge sticks in the mud on the warranty though?

they said to me flat out at my dealer "if you are tracking your gt-r you are voiding your warranty"

...

Most cars have warranty exceptions for the track. Z06/ZR1 included. AFAIK even the ACR viper.



Here's the gist of what I've read from GTR guys that track :

There are provisions to inspect the car at the dealer before a track day, and after a track day. That lets you keep your warranty while you track it.

Should a problem happen at the track, you're on your own.
Should you have a problem off the track (after your post-track-day inspection), you're covered.



As far as launching goes, warranty issues were only for LC1 software.
LC2, LC3, LC4, etc, are all covered. The LC1->LC2 update is free at the dealer.

Most of the warranty drama about the GTR stems from people launching with LC1 software 20x in a row, overheating the transmission, and 1st gear breaking.

AFAIK the new software versions have limits, allowing something like 4 launches before you have to wait for the transmission to cool.

Originally Posted by MonteCarloM3

New 2012 GT-R will have 530hp. it'll smoke pretty much anything out there with sub-3 second 0-60.

Worth noting that an HKS stage 1 kit has 600.
Engine wise, the 2012 is like the previous model with some bolt-ons.
The changes are roughly : larger intake, larger cats, tune.
Which makes sense, since stage 1 GTRs can run under 3 seconds.

-scheherazade

[sensi09]

Originally Posted by MC;

for every year GTR has had its own revised version of Launch control you can use under full warranty with VDC in R mode


here are the facts...

2009 LC1 VDC off "original Launch control" Was a warranty issue...0-60 3.2 secs
2009 ( all owners who wanted it received TCM update to 2010 spec LC2 ) 0-60 3.5 secs
2010 LC2 3K rpm launch Manual or automode any set up switch 0-60 3.5 secs
2011 LC3 3.3k RPM launch Manual mode RRR only 0-60 3.3 secs
2012 LC4 3.5-4K RPM Manual mode RRR only 0-60 2.9 secs ( nissan released a official press release and a video that shows the car being held to 4K rpm and launched with VDC on)

_

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by conradb

Carrera S is faster around the Nordschleife, and gets 27mpg hwy I believe.


Is there a technical reason why the M3 only gets 20mpg hwy? Why are other NA V8's with more HP getting better fuel economies? I'm no mechanical engineer. I'm rather curious.

Let's face it, the M3 is a DD for many of us. It's not a true track car. It is supposed to be practical and sporty. What gives?

20 mpg? M3 (E92)? Only if going downhill with a tailwind. Any normal driving will produce 16/17 mpg tops! Open it up a few times and you're easily under 15 mpg. DCT maybe a little better.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by GhostRideTheWhip

The GT-R feels big. Great car...it's just too big for my liking.

Ever watch the FIA GT1 World Championship races? GT-Rs are competing against Aston Martin DB9s, Lambos, Vettes, Ford GTs, and Maserati MC12s. The GT-R looks like a goddamn truck out there it's so freakin' big. It's yet to really impress as well.

[sensi09]

^They're all about the same weight though with the american cars being a little lighter.

[carlfan]

Originally Posted by scheherazade

Good luck test driving a GT-R.
Dealers are very reluctant to let people take one out.

Some folks have gotten a test drive, but the vast majority have simply gotten an existing GT-R owner to give them a spin.

Check nagtroc.com and find someone willing to show it to you.

All in all, it's a decent car. Good performance out of the box. Good comfort.

I expected a very 'sporty car', but after a while I realized that it was 'ok sporty' and 'ok comfortable'. I'd say, 85% of the comfort I want, and 85% of the fun I want. If it was a hair quieter, and had a manual, it'd be a home run.

MPG wise, the modified 335 I had before had much better MPG - given the horsepower/straight-line-performance.
335 : 0-60 in the 4 second range, with 25mpg average
GT-R : 0-60 in the 3.5 second range, with 17mpg average

MPG does matter to me, but it's just a tie breaker.
eg. if all other stats are the same, I'll pick the better mpg.

Either way, I care about it.
I liken it to shoes.

I can buy a new pair of shoes every time I get a scuff. Who cares, they're trivially cheap. Why even bother to whipe them off...

But it doesn't mean I won't feel bad throwing away the otherwise perfectly fine old pair.

-scheherazade

Good info. I went to a Nissan dealership in an upper class city a few months ago and they didn't even have one. The sales guy was telling me that a test drive was going to be tough. The majority of people that buy one, shell out $100k and pay cash on the spot.


I think , dibxna , has a point when he says this:

Originally Posted by dibxna

oh and for the test drive thing...

first day i showed up to look they started the car. they pulled it out. they asked me if i would like to drive it.

second day i showed up there was an entirely different group of people and they said "well we only let those people test drive it who are serious. we mean really serious. and we'd need to know that you are that serious before we'd allow you" so i looked at the guy and asked him "i'm here asking you questions about pricing and warranty. what about that tells you i'm NOT serious?" so i ended up throwing nissan out the door all together because lets face it... sales people used to selling a 20,000 dollar vehicle are going to for sure treat an 80k vehicle like its made out of platinum and lined with 5 carat diamonds inside and out because of how different it costs compared to what they are used to.

Its funny, because when I was looking for my E92 M3, the sales guy was begging me to test drive it. I also went to a Porsche dealership and drove a 911 without problems.

[B R A N D X®]

If you need/want better than 20mpg (fairly easily obtained in the DCT equipped M3 as long as its driver isn't constantly showing off or thrill seeking) forget about pretty much anything that's faster. BTW, my '09 Carrera S saw about the same mpg as does my M3 making it one of the better performance to mpg compromises (a base Carrera with the PDK transmission's extra gear will actually allow you to easily achieve 30mpg in mixed driving *if* you drive conservatively all the time, but where's the fun in that??? Plus a PDK equipped Porsche is zero fun unless tracking)

With any car that has pretty serious performance you will have to NOT use the performance and top-tier engineering that you're paying for in order to get a meaningful mpg improvement over your M3 so why spend the money in the first place?

Also, keep in mind that if you purchased your M3 new you will take a pretty significant depreciation hit regardless of whether you trade it in or sell privately. Let's say you take a $12K hit; that's a lot of gas my friend.

Now I'll give you my 2¢ regarding a reasonable car to consider if impressing people over the age of 25 doesn't even factor in to your car buying decision, but as a driving enthusiast you still want to have fun while getting very good mpg. Yes, it's front wheel drive which, while remarkably improved in terms of torque steer, will never feel like a RWD car and I know FWD is considered heresy to most BMW fans, but perhaps consider buying the car I use most days for my 80 mile round trip commute....a VW GTI MK6 with its nicely efficient and easily tuned turbo 4.

Properly tuned, a 2010 or later GTI *feels* almost as fast as a stock 335i or an E46 M3 even if it's actually about a second or so slower 0-60, but it is a blast to drive in manual transmission form, handles pretty damned well without any suspension or wheel/tire upgrades, has a very nicely appointed and clearly Teutonic interior is considered a great enthusiast's car by nearly every car magazine (Car & Driver actually lists it as a Top 10 car as well as a car that "every enthusiast should own before they die" and Road & Track says the overall fit and finish makes them feel as if they are driving a mini-Mercedes rather than a VeeDub) *and (!!)* when I drive it relatively conservatively while still having some back road and on-ramp fun I easily obtain 30+ mpg.

And hey, you gotta figure that since Akrapovic makes an exhaust system for the GTI it must have at least some cool factor right?!

Also, because it doesn't handle as well as your M3 or go as quickly in general it's possibly even more fun on back roads. It will put a big ol' smile on your face at just over lose-your-license territory rather than go-to-jail territory.

Just a thought because frankly if you want a meaningful improvement in mileage you can forget about E9X M3-like or better performance.

Just for the hell of it, go drive a 2011 GTI with the Autobahn package (which is what gives you the upgraded interior) and see what you think. During your test drive keep in mind that a company like APR can easily, safely and cost effectively tune the GTI for considerably more hp and tq than it comes with as standard. If I remember correctly my little, moderately tuned GTI puts out about 259hp (200hp stock) and 295tq (200 stock) with the APR Stage 2 Tune and the Carbonio carbon fiber intake which cost me less than $2K and there's a lot more that can be done to it for another couple grand if you are so inclined.

My GTI also has a pretty high-quality looking and feeling interior with black leather, well bolstered yet comfortable seats, a great driving position, an excellent manual transmission, touch screen for multi-media and communication, Sat radio, iPod connectivity, Bluetooth for phone as well as music streaming, heated seats, navigation, Xenons, etc....and stickered at around $25K.

[carlfan]

R A N D X®,

Agree with your points. I drive my M3 the way its meant to be driven and I'll do the same with any other higher performing car. In other words, the average MPG's probably won't increase.

As far as the VW GTI MK6, great option! I like the looks of it too. I'll have to add it to my list. It also seems to have much more interior space than the M3, once you fold down the rear seats, right?

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider

Ever watch the FIA GT1 World Championship races? GT-Rs are competing against Aston Martin DB9s, Lambos, Vettes, Ford GTs, and Maserati MC12s. The GT-R looks like a goddamn truck out there it's so freakin' big. It's yet to really impress as well.

That's kind of moot. (be it FIA or ALMS)

Those cars have different :
- engine
- transmission
- drivetrain bits
- suspension

About the only thing in common with their road-going counterparts is the frame, and even that's modified.

Eg.
GTR GT1 changes :
- TTV6 -> V8
- DCT -> 6 speed dog box
- AWD -> RWD
- Different suspension design, geometry, wheels, tires, etc.


That goes for generally all cars that appear in GT races.
Even the beloved [consumer available] porsche GT2/3 are a long long way from their true race counterparts.

-scheherazade

[Kayani_1]

Most performance cars are not ideal for gas mileage. If you want gas mileage and BMW fun factor get a 335d. Off course it is no M3 but it gets much better gas mileage while having the same BMW overall feel.

If you are looking for a car that is faster then your BMW but interior is not up to par then get a Corvette Z06. If you want a bit better interior then Vette yet not give up performance then get a GT-R.

Overall, GT-R would be faster, handles better and gives greater fuel economy and you might be able to pick one up slightly used for $65K.

[Kayani_1]

I have seen the FIA GT1 and GT-R competes very well in that series and has a few podium finishes and looks great out there.

http://www.gtrblog.com/tag/fia/

Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider

Ever watch the FIA GT1 World Championship races? GT-Rs are competing against Aston Martin DB9s, Lambos, Vettes, Ford GTs, and Maserati MC12s. The GT-R looks like a goddamn truck out there it's so freakin' big. It's yet to really impress as well.

[JCtx]

I'm not going to read 5 freaking pages of this (), but a regular Vette is quicker/faster than our M3 and gives WAY better mileage on the highway. I'm sure it's better on the city too, but the difference less dramatic. There's no reason to have 6th so damn high (numerically), when it's rarely used on tracks. If we had about 500 less revs in 6th it'd give much better hwy mileage. A must with just 16.6 freaking gallons of fuel.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider

20 mpg? M3 (E92)? Only if going downhill with a tailwind. Any normal driving will produce 16/17 mpg tops! Open it up a few times and you're easily under 15 mpg. DCT maybe a little better.

I average 22 - 23 mpg. And that's opening it up every day (not in winter though). Granted, it's mostly highway miles. And I have 6MT too. I get less now since I'm rarely driving it in the winter, but I'm happy with the mileage. I do wish we could fill the tank with more than 20 gallons though.


Cheers.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by scheherazade

All in all, it's a decent car. Good performance out of the box. Good comfort.

I expected a very 'sporty car', but after a while I realized that it was 'ok sporty' and 'ok comfortable'. I'd say, 85% of the comfort I want, and 85% of the fun I want. If it was a hair quieter, and had a manual, it'd be a home run.

-scheherazade

Wait. You're talking about the GTR? "OK" comfort I can see. But only "OK" sporty? Hmmm.


Cheers.

[alms211]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

I have seen the FIA GT1 and GT-R competes very well in that series and has a few podium finishes and looks great out there.

http://www.gtrblog.com/tag/fia/

Looks great out there? Negative Ghostrider.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by scheherazade

That's kind of moot. (be it FIA or ALMS)

Those cars have different :
- engine
- transmission
- drivetrain bits
- suspension

About the only thing in common with their road-going counterparts is the frame, and even that's modified.

Eg.
GTR GT1 changes :
- TTV6 -> V8
- DCT -> 6 speed dog box
- AWD -> RWD
- Different suspension design, geometry, wheels, tires, etc.


That goes for generally all cars that appear in GT races.
Even the beloved [consumer available] porsche GT2/3 are a long long way from their true race counterparts.

-scheherazade

My point was to comment on its size. You're way off on a tangent.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

I have seen the FIA GT1 and GT-R competes very well in that series and has a few podium finishes and looks great out there.

http://www.gtrblog.com/tag/fia/

There were 2 Nissan teams in 2010 (1st year of GT1). They came in 6th and 10th of 12. They did good at some venues, but usually they were mid pack.

We'll see what happens this year. First round is Abu Dhabi in April.

[B R A N D X®]

Originally Posted by carlfan

R A N D X®,

Agree with your points. I drive my M3 the way its meant to be driven and I'll do the same with any other higher performing car. In other words, the average MPG's probably won't increase.

As far as the VW GTI MK6, great option! I like the looks of it too. I'll have to add it to my list. It also seems to have much more interior space than the M3, once you fold down the rear seats, right?

Hey.....if I have only convinced you to at least test drive one then I feel the time put in to typing my overly verbose post (as usual for me) was well worth it!

I think if you compare dimensional spec's online via VW's and BMW's websites you will probably find the M3 to have more shoulder and leg room for passengers, but, with the rear seats folded down, you do have quite a bit of cargo room; I'm pretty sure it's a meaningful amount more than just the trunk space of an M3.

You may not like it as much as I do, but drive one (keeping mod's in mind even though it's a fun car without them) and get back to me with your thoughts.

I bought my GTI to be my new daily driver after I had sold my second E46 M3 to help fund the purchase of my Porsche. This allowed me to have an affordable, but fun and efficient, daily driver for a pretty lengthy commute so that the Carrera S could be my garage queen / weekend toy and to keep the miles and the overall wear and tear down on the Porsche.

I was really pleasantly surprised that I ended up enjoying the GTI so much that I didn't really miss my E46. Not only that, but for the first 6 months that I owned the GTI, the Carrera never even left the garage.......kind of sad really.

My wife has also become a car enthusiast and she "steals" my GTI to run errands or go to the gym whenever she gets the chance. I just recently discovered she was also taking lengthy detours with it and starting to do back road blasts of her own because of its incredibly fun, yet easy to drive, personality

Overall, the MK6 GTI is a great car that can even be appreciated by folks who've been pretty spoiled car-wise as long as they haven't become snobbish i.e. have an open mind, is actually kind of cool looking, is lots of fun to drive, gets very good gas mileage and you could buy 3 of them for the price of one fully spec'd E9X M3.....or fill it up with Premium for the rest of your life with the money you'd save by not buying an M3 in the first place!

If you end up getting at all serious about the GTI feel free to PM me with any questions.

Hope my post helps!

[sensi09]

Brand,

Not sure they still make the R32, but did you consider that car?

Oh and why both the 550 and e90. How do you choose between those cars when leaving the house.

[B R A N D X®]

Originally Posted by sensi09

Brand,

Not sure they still make the R32, but did you consider that car?

Oh and why both the 550 and e90. How do you choose between those cars when leaving the house.

No R32 when I bought my GTI or currently, but I believe one is coming.

With the VW purchase I wanted a fun, highly tuneable car that gets very good gas mileage so the GTI really fit the bill. After the APR Stage II tune the car feels really quick and I still average 30 mpg with a fair amount of highway, commuter cruising.

I sold my Carrera C2S to buy the 2011 M3. After a few years of Porsche ownership, some of which overlapped with E46 M3 ownership, I discovered I'm a pretty full-on BMW guy. I respect, enjoy and appreciate the 911's, but find the M3's more enjoyable personally.

The F10 550i and the E90 M3 make a great combo for me. The 550i is super luxurious, feature laden, pretty big yet plenty fast and still has that BMW DNA. Not as much sport in the "sport sedan" moniker as the E39 or the E60 (Both of which I've owned multiples of), but a very grown up 5er or......a slightly downsized 7 series. So......it's my luxo-executive car.

The E90 M3 is very familiar when I have just spent a week driving the F10, but it's an M car so I get the kind of thrills I'm looking for for back road burning. I live out in the sticks and thankfully there are miles and miles of lightly patrolled, great back roads that twist and undulate.

I know it may seem a bit redundant to some and most here would question my preferring this combo to my previous F10 550i / Porsche 997.2 C2S pairing, but it just works better for me. I'm very happy with these two cars!

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider

My point was to comment on its size. You're way off on a tangent.

I just meant that there's ~no relationship between the FIA GT-R and the consumer GT-R.

Meaning that whatever size vs performance observation you make about the FIA car, has nothing to do with the consumer version.

Originally Posted by ersin

Wait. You're talking about the GTR? "OK" comfort I can see. But only "OK" sporty? Hmmm.

Cheers.

The car feels very composed. You can be going 80 and it feels like you're going 35.
The acceleration is also very linear. So you don't get much butt-dyno either.

Looking at the gauge, you can tell that you're hauling out, but by the way you feel in the seat it's rather sedate.

I honestly get amazed watching car reviews where people hoot about the acceleration. It feels like they're looking at the numbers and then acting appropriately. Like when you hand a chick a glass of schweppes and tell her it is alcohol, and then she acts drunk...



Fortunately, the over-abundance of composure is made up for by the ease of accomplishment.
Passing is effortless.
Merging is effortless.
Whatever you want, is effortless.
You tell the car to do something, it does it.

Having a manual would raise the entertainment bar to where I would feel like the car is 'fun-enough'.

Otherwise, I'm shy of having enough fun to be content.
Hence, I say it's 85% of the fun I want (aka : 'ok sporty').

-scheherazade