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05-17-2010, 08:52 PM | #89 | |
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if the company knows what there doing then it can be raised safely. i have had there tunes on my past 3 M cars and never a problem and that is over 100k miles of driving
i also never had one problem at any BMW dealer with it and they all knew i had the Dinan software in there and on this current one and they still warrantied my car for anything it needed but yes i agree it is more universal to work on any M3 versus a custom tune etc Quote:
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05-17-2010, 09:22 PM | #90 | |||||||
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Ditto.
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I'm not certainly not arguing that modifications must be evaluated according to some rigid predefined (or simply my favorite or your favorite) metric(s). This debate has nothing to do with my "investment" in this topic. You made a blantantly false statement and I called you on it. Quote:
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05-17-2010, 09:44 PM | #91 | |
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anytime bro and enjoy your new ride congrats. i would drive it for awhile stock then decide what mods you want to do and think you would enjoy the most and do them one at a time as well so you can see what each one did for the car. i did mine one at a time and drove at least 1k miles with the car bf adding another so i could apprec each one
also to your other comment. Dinan does prob the most R&D of any company bf releasing one of there products to the public. i never dyno my car just bc i really didn't feel the need and after seeing how the numbers can be so far off from another and how it always turns sour of a thread i really could care less. i just did each mod one at a time and i will say i felt an improvement of each one. is it exactly the hp and tq numbers dinan claims well i don't know for sure. but i do know each one made me happy and that is all that matters to me. the one that was the biggest wow factor in terms of power added and sound enjoyment was the midpipe hands down. if i had to do it over and only pick one it would be the midpipe combo. the sound is just amazing. and the power increase was awesome. like i drove away in a new car. i have yet to pull in somewhere and someone not say something how good the car sounds so i know its not just me. and at the end of the day no drone and i can hear myself inside the car which is cool but like i said enjoy the car stock for awhile as it is an awesome machine just stock as it is. the next thing i am doing is the Dinan susp while it is 20% off. i have read very good things on it and i can get get better performance without having to buy a whole susp package or have the car slammed to the ground. the 1/2 inch drop is perfect for my taste best of luck with the new ride, you will love it i am sure no matter DCT or 6sp H Quote:
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05-18-2010, 11:27 PM | #92 | ||
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Ok - this is my last shot at this Swamp...
First off, your last response to me forced me to utilize both Google and Wikipedia to sort through it all - too much work Swamp seriously, and thought experiments, really ? You also threw in a Pop Quiz - Quote:
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In your above quote, you indicate that the funny thing about this mod is that it can fool, or generate "false beliefs" in people and cause them to think that it (FD mod) has overall performance gains because they feel improvements. The driver can be fooled by what they feel and can then go on to judge the mod a success based on this feeling or "false belief". This shows that the driver can in fact make a decision on the success of the modification based on "feel", false or otherwise that cannot be supported by the measured data. There are members that swear by this mod because it changes the rpm in each gear better to their liking, and those in gear changes can be measured. But there are other members that feel overall faster with the mod, or provide other reasons they like it that can't be supported by the measured data. You can point out that they're wrong to feel the way they feel, but you're not going to change the way the feel, and that has been proven with this mod, time and time again. Flawed human perception can in some cases trump the measured data, but that's ok because the "decider" (to use a Bushism) otherwise known as the driver, is the only person it matters to. So you're correct in all of your analysis, but being right in this case does not change the fact the some will love this mod for reasons that can't be supported by measured data - and that's ok That is the point I've been trying to make. |
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05-19-2010, 12:47 AM | #93 |
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What if I told you there was a virtual reality "modification" I could sell you for the m3 that by interacting with your brain waves could 100% fool all of your senses into believing you were actually driving an f430 whenever you drove your car. It replicated the sight, sound, feel, prestige and handling to a T. This modification, of course, in no way changed any measurable metric of the m3.
Think I could sell you one??? |
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05-20-2010, 04:27 AM | #94 | |||||||
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Well, we keep drifting without being able to reach closure on specific points of disagreement. Unfortunately I still call many of your prior statments completely incorrect. Your opening one was one of the key one:
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Anyway, without returning to all prior points I'll continue... Quote:
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In gear testing: Feel will be improved, measurement will show improvement. All is simple and consistent. Testing across multiple gears: Feel may or may not be improved, if improved it is likely of a much less significant intensity as compared to the drivers seat of the pants evaluation of the in gear tests. Again the effect here is simply that each gear is gone through faster but the speed at the shift points in each gear is at lower speed. In this particular case, this car with its OEM FD ratio as compared to most of the aftermarket choices, some results will be a bit better, some will be about the same and some will be worse. The same won't necessarily be the case for ALL cars with all OEM FD ratios. The one in the M3 is simply fairly well optimized for a wide range of performance metrics. The problem is indeed that the bulk of the evidence from the in gear testing combined with a possible smaller "feel" of improvement on the multi-gear case can falsely convince someone that the mod drastically improves both. Either way you can measure exactly what is happening. It is just that in one case perception and measurement might be at odds. It wouldn't be the first case of this in human perception, we're fooled all the time. I would be highly surprised if folks who have done this mod on this car would cite the across gear testing as the dominant factor in their subjective improvement to the "feel" of the car. I'm sure none of them have bothered to read this lengthy debate but if any are still here please chime in. Quote:
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It is just overwhelmingly important to keep this idiom in mind with FD mods: There is no such thing as a free lunch. Such a mod does not add power nor remove weight so in many cases all you get is improvement under some isolated circumstances and negative effects in others. One last loosely related comment: Using a FD mod to tune a car for a certain track is a very valid use of such a mod.
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05-20-2010, 04:32 AM | #95 | |
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06-12-2010, 04:22 PM | #98 |
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According to Dinan's website there is an increase in torque (295 X 6.5% = 314), but given the hazing in this thread, I am scared to post this... I would IMAGINE that would be across the entire rev range - but I would want to see a dyno chart on it.
4.10 Limited Slip Differential - Manual Dinan lowers the stock 3.85 final drive ratio to a 4.10, taking full advantage of torque multiplication for a substantial 6.5% increase in torque delivered to the road. The improved acceleration comes with only a minor increase in engine speeds at cruise and no effective reduction in top speed potential. The Dinan 4.10 Limited Slip Differential delivers what is perhaps the greatest bang for the buck in terms of improved and more immediate acceleration from the M3. |
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06-12-2010, 05:35 PM | #99 |
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exactly what i read, and am not really understanding this thread then. seem torque improvement is a "real" improvement not imagined and that with the dct shift speed nothing will really be lost there just top end and since i dont live around any salt flats dont really care. guess i just dont understand the arguments in here...
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06-12-2010, 06:08 PM | #100 |
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To the above two posts:
I'll try to offer some further explanation. You can either try to understand this deep or technically or just on the surface. Sure a FD multiplies torque to the rear wheels. It does it with a constant percentage and across the speed/rpm range. OK more torque to the wheels does matter. It is a key ingredient of acceleration and performance but it obviously is not the entire ingredient list. If a FD mod gave you more torque at the wheels with ABSOLUTELY no drawbacks: 1. It would be essentially magic, making any and all cars faster. 2. All OEMs would be using new/revised FD ratios 3. There would be some sort of regression to the absurd with infinite FD ratios. And if traction was not an issue you would get ever increasing acceleration. The last point is key, you can't simply keep bumping and bumping the ratio. And just thinking very "on the surface" - there is no such thing as a free lunch. A transmission mod does affect your engine itself and obviously does not give you more hp. hp is THE most important factor (well hp to the wheels per weight, but whatever, that is just a detail). How long you can hold each gear is the other absolutely critical ingredient of the performance equation. You do notice how much harder your call pulls in 1st compared to 2nd and in 2nd compared to 3rd, etc.? How the FD hurts you is that you get less time in each gear. Get it? Now again if you only consider in gear results you will certainly feel that increased torque to the wheels and you'll think it has improved everything. Again "success" the mod itself (with regards to actual measured results) will depend on how well the OEM optimized the FD. In some cars a FD mod might get you a small bit of improved performance all around. But in most cases you'll get improved in gear results and a variety of effects when measuring specs where multiple gears are used; some slightly positive, some slightly negative and some will show no change.
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06-13-2010, 02:54 AM | #101 | |
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Disclaimer: no, I don't have this mod...
but I have read the thread - and I notice an argument has shifted from this mod is faster... to now it "feels faster." This is what the OP said: That statement caused the initial argument because it really hasn't been proven faster. Guys are just pointing out you're unsubstantiated statement. If you want to prove otherwise, it's easy -not a video, just get a Vbox - it's less than $500 for goodness sake. Post the data, it's easy enough to verify the validity and there's a good database to compare results. But now, if you want to shift to how it makes you "feel," of course nobody can argue with YOUR feel of speed. But many enthusiasts are here to KNOW what will actually improve their car's performance. Quote:
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06-13-2010, 05:44 AM | #102 |
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I do not understand anything anymore, so please somebody answer my questions? 1. Which FD makes the M3 6MT accelerate quicker from 0 to 100 km/h? 2. Which FD makes the M3 6MT accelerate quicker from 0 to 200 km/h? 3. Which FD makes the M3 6MT do 1/4 mile faster? 4. Why does the M3 GT4 use FD 4.10 instead of 3.85? |
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06-13-2010, 06:21 AM | #103 | |
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The M3 GT4 is an entirely different question. As is driving a car on a track. A FD mod might be a benefit on certain tracks and a detriment on others depending on peak speeds at brake points and which gear those will put you in. Also NatAsp: Although I would be quite keen to see some Vbox testing. THE ONLY way to to do that right is with multiple runs before the mod and multiple runs after the new FD is installed and broken in. Since the difference you are trying to measure is small you'll just not see it due to all of the other effects. One run of each or car A vs. car B or that combined with driver X vs. driver Y just does not answer the question.
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06-13-2010, 06:23 AM | #104 | |
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agree exactly, and this forum is a small part of the whole US or the world for that matter. and when put in the grand scheme of things there are more Dinan tunes out there then people think. and in no means is it a step down in any way. it may not put out the same hp/tq numbers but they are not trying to, it is a different style software but far from a step down. if anything it is a step up bc you can go to any BMW dealer with it without fear of your warranty being voided. i have been to 3 different dealers now with my car and no issues. there has been members with other software that have been flagged or had problems. so unless you are cool with your SA you could run into issues possibly, i would say "that" is a step down. also what about long term reliability?? we don't know any of that yet. it isn't alsways about the most hp
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06-13-2010, 06:59 AM | #105 |
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06-13-2010, 09:38 AM | #106 |
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just wanted to know the tq numbers were real. do most driving in the city and want to improve the driveability as this is my dd. thanks for all the info guys, and believe it or not swamp, you convinced me to get this, thx dood
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06-13-2010, 02:23 PM | #107 |
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^^ If you go to the link I posted on the first page that thread has actual simulation numbers for the DCT case and some of the DCT FD ratios being used. The same conclusion is true independent of transmission.
^ Glad I could help. The most important thing to know is what you are getting, what it does and what it won't do. Enjoy it!
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06-13-2010, 05:43 PM | #108 |
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thx swamp. am getting a few power increases as it is, full exhaust, filter, tune, and working on some weight reduction so think the 3.45 diff should complement it nicely... keep up the good fight
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06-14-2010, 12:20 AM | #109 |
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it def will. i had all that prior to the diff and now with the diff in there it is the perfect package for me. i think you will enjoy it
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