HPDE experiments, results and observations

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by rhyary

My idea of using all season tires for wet day was a bad idea and I admit defeat.

I may check winter tires for soft rubber, but the all season in the rain were not grippy enough to generate heat on the brakes and in turns. As a result I was driving on cold tires the whole session.

pretty nuts... lots of standing water and rivers on that track. looks like it would be a hand full to try and hustle the car in conditions like that. i like your youtube display- lots of great info.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by rhyary

My idea of using all season tires for wet day was a bad idea and I admit defeat.

I may check winter tires for soft rubber, but the all season in the rain were not grippy enough to generate heat on the brakes and in turns. As a result I was driving on cold tires the whole session.

Winter tires!? What are you talking about? You’re jumping to conclusions. Tires don’t magically heat themselves up. You have to work a bit harder than that, especially on the brakes. Also looks like you braked pretty hard into that turn with the spin.

The ambient temp says it was warm in the 70’s. Endurance track tires with grooves can easily get up to temp in those conditions, and colder.

[rhyary]

@Bartledoo please read what I write and don't jump to conclusions. Here is what I wrote again. Although the slide happened on the first lap, it did not get better later.

/begin
"the all season in the rain were not grippy enough to generate heat on the brakes and in turns. As a result I was driving on cold tires the whole session."
/end

Going up the heel is a steep hill, I was gently getting into 500psi, normally over 1000psi brake zone. Yes in hindsight it was too much, but I would venture to say it was reasonable guess given that location.

Yes, you can always say that I don't know how to put heat into the tires, and perhaps you are right, because by now you know me so well :-)

Performance winter tires have merit because the soft rubber in the summer. Real rain tires are so good in the rain because grooves to channel the water and soft rubber. The all season have the grooves, I was not hydroplaning, but the rubber (needs to be good in the summer) is not soft enough.

Discussing the issue at the WGI garage with experienced drivers such as yourself says that the idea has merit since other drivers have tried that idea.

I am not sure if this solution, even if good, is an option for me. I was lucky to borrow a trailer for this WGI event, so I was able to bring extra set of wheels with the all season mounted. But normally I am driving to events with only two fronts as spares.

It does boil down to practically just bringing 200tw tires and sit in the garage with everyone else when it rains.

You have no idea how much I hate sitting in the garage when the track is open.

I came back from 4 days at WGI and did about 170 laps. This is more laps that many people do in 3 years.

[Bartledoo]

As long as the track isn’t dangerous due to crazy standing water, there is no need to sit in the paddock. There are many grooved 200tw summer track tires that are fine in the wet (some are even extremely quick in both wet and dry), even relatively cold and wet. Heating the tires definitely requires more work and vigilance than normal though. More than half of my track days this year have been rain though, so maybe I just have more practice. It does rain a lot here lol

[rhyary]

My RE-71R have been consumed.
luckily TR did not disappoint and these are my new fronts to be pared with 305/30/19 rears
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[rhyary]

I should clarify what I am looking for for driving in the rain. I was in the rain with MPS4S and 200tw tires. I am not looking for that feeling.

I took out my student's Corvette on a real rain tires in pouring rain for laps at NYST and this is what I am looking for.

Yes, road tires will not be like dedicated rain tires. I'll have to go slower. But the feeling of soft rubber in the rain was a revelation.

I have no idea if winter tires can do that, but I want to try it.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I should clarify what I am looking for for driving in the rain. I was in the rain with MPS4S and 200tw tires. I am not looking for that feeling.

I took out my student's Corvette on a real rain tires in pouring rain for laps at NYST and this is what I am looking for.

Yes, road tires will not be like dedicated rain tires. I'll have to go slower. But the feeling of soft rubber in the rain was a revelation.

I have no idea if winter tires can do that, but I want to try it.

Fair. Try them out. It will be fun either way. I was just responding to the blanket statements about not having enough grip to heat the tires, etc. I wouldn’t want you to accept that as fact about those types of tires, when that category can perform perfectly well in the wet.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Fair. Try them out. It will be fun either way. I was just responding to the blanket statements about not having enough grip to heat the tires, etc. I wouldn't want you to accept that as fact about those types of tires, when that category can perform perfectly well in the wet.

Agreed. Heating up tires in the rain is difficult.
The less grip you have, the more difficult it is to heat up the tires, and the less heat, the less grip.

Having said that, trying to do it is part of the sport, alas it comes with a higher risk and I totally understand why people choose to sit a session out.

I have to wait until a winter tires goes on sell. I am not trying this on full price tires.

[rhyary]

Personal Best today at NYST - 1:35.68.
Front Tires RE-050A 265/35/19 new
Rear Tires V720 305/30/19 after 4 days in WGI

Previous PB 1:35.70 on Hoosier R7 in 2019

Video later

[admranger]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Personal Best today at NYST - 1:35.68.
Front Tires RE-050A 265/35/19 new
Rear Tires V720 305/30/19 after 4 days in WGI

Previous PB 1:35.70 on Hoosier R7 in 2019

Video later

Your driving must be better. R7's today would net you at least a 1:33 is my guess.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by admranger

Your driving must be better. R7's today would net you at least a 1:33 is my guess.

Oh man, I would love to be on proper slicks one day to see what I can do with this car. But this is not in the cards for now.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Oh man, I would love to be on proper slicks one day to see what I can do with this car. But this is not in the cards for now.

Said every track driver ever.

Setting a PB on street tires means you're getting better. Keep it up!

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I have no idea if winter tires can do that, but I want to try it.

It depends on the winter tire (e.g. performance winter, extreme winter, or all-weather) but they probably will not. The tread blocks will be too squirmy and the siping is going to give away a lot of grip. And it gets worse with hotter ambient temperatures.

If anything, I would try a performance winter tire such as the Michelin Pilot Alpin 5 which is intended for light snow and cold, rainy conditions. But even that one has a ton of siping which will make it squirm.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by Ximian

It depends on the winter tire (e.g. performance winter, extreme winter, or all-weather) but they probably will not. The tread blocks will be too squirmy and the siping is going to give away a lot of grip. And it gets worse with hotter ambient temperatures.

If anything, I would try a performance winter tire such as the Michelin Pilot Alpin 5 which is intended for light snow and cold, rainy conditions. But even that one has a ton of siping which will make it squirm.

Or just get Hoosier wets. Gum eraser soft. Stick like silly putty on a wet track.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Ximian

It depends on the winter tire (e.g. performance winter, extreme winter, or all-weather) but they probably will not. The tread blocks will be too squirmy and the siping is going to give away a lot of grip. And it gets worse with hotter ambient temperatures.

If anything, I would try a performance winter tire such as the Michelin Pilot Alpin 5 which is intended for light snow and cold, rainy conditions. But even that one has a ton of siping which will make it squirm.

I should have been clearer.
yes I meant performance winter tires.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I should have been clearer.
yes I meant performance winter tires.

I'd tempted to try an all-weather like the Crossclimate 2 before a winter tire, even a performance winter like the Alpin's.

But we're venturing into strange territory here regardless lol.

[rhyary]

Lap times from NYST 9/7/2022
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[rhyary]

Video. Personal best at NYST
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[rhyary]

3 day heaven at Watkins Glen International.

What can I say?
3 days
Perfect weather
Plenty of track time
Personnel best of 2:06.90 (previously 2:07.17)

The event with GVC BMW was Friday open lap time and Sat and Sun were sessions. GVC had a new schedule that combined groups and allowed full 60 min sessions. Nice!

I started the event on sticker tires:

Front 265/35/19 ADO8R
Rear 305/30/19 Pirelli Corsa Asym 2

No issues with the tires. As expected the ADO8R were good on wear, noisy, and not very sticky compares to RE-71R and the RT660.

Especially in the carousel long right handler. When I came in with enough speed, I had trouble bringing the car into the apex. In fact during my 2:06 run, you can see me understeering out despite the huge on camber the carousel provides (video later).

I tried to look at lap stats to get some insight into the three day event.

Overall number of laps: 144
9/30/22 - 47 laps
10/1/22 - 45 laps
10/2/22 - 52 laps

Tires are still good for my next event at NYST and perhaps even to LRP next week.

I did not look at any lap slower then 2:11. if I was slower than 2:11, some one was in my way.

2:11 pace - 16 laps
2:10 pace - 19 laps
2:09 pace - 11 laps
2:08 pace - 10 laps
2:07 pace - 6 laps
2:06 pace - 1 lap

when the tires were new I easily got into 2:07 pace if ran clear lap, but that was only on the first day

By the second day, the pace dropped to 2:08.
And basically third day the pace dropped to 2:09.

The pace dropped mostly because the front was no longer holding the turn and was sliding. To compensate, I extended the trail braking which helped, but did not yield a better time.

What can I say, last year being thrilled at 2:11-2:12, I would never thought I will be comfortable and relaxed doing 2:07s.

Speaking of traffic, I was on a 2:06.03 pace possibly breaking 2:06 but caught up with a slow moving mini or Fiat 500 and that was it. Grrrrrr.

[rhyary]

Here are two laps, both are personal best pace.
I forgot to tape the microphone outside the trunk, but still decent S65 sound.
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[Ximian]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Here are two laps, both are personal best pace.
I forgot to tape the microphone outside the trunk, but still decent S65 sound.
.

Risky pass at 40 seconds in. One of the scariest sights for me is slow moving Porsche. "Did they just spill all the fluids on the track or are they about to spill all the fluids on the track?"

[tsk94]

Time for thread name change. We about to be in 2023 season