VAC Rod bearing condition after 13k miles

[Doc Oc]

What exactly does the vanos consist of? The head looks like a pretty standard dohc head with the exception of the cam gears.

[Doc Oc]

Just to update this thread for any future searchers, after taking a close look at these vac bearings I realized that even though I had ordered their custom clevite extra clearance bearings they actually sent coated oem 702 bearings and my installer didn't catch it. So the bearings in this thread are actually not representative of the custom vac bearings. I was very disappointed with this because I was under the impression that lead could be tracked with these and that they had extra clearance like BE, but that is not the case as the clearance measurements in this thread show. And the uoa's I ran were pretty useless as obviously there is no lead in the 702/3 bearings. Apparently VAC uses the same part number for both styles of bearings and sends whatever is in stock at the time of order. There are other members on this board who have also received coated oems when ordering the custom bearings so buyer beware on these.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

Just to update this thread for any future searchers, after taking a close look at these vac bearings I realized that even though I had ordered their custom clevite extra clearance bearings they actually sent coated oem 702 bearings and my installer didn't catch it. So the bearings in this thread are actually not representative of the custom vac bearings. I was very disappointed with this because I was under the impression that lead could be tracked with these and that they had extra clearance like BE, but that is not the case as the clearance measurements in this thread show. And the uoa's I ran were pretty useless as obviously there is no lead in the 702/3 bearings. Apparently VAC uses the same part number for both styles of bearings and sends whatever is in stock at the time of order. There are other members on this board who have also received coated oems when ordering the custom bearings so buyer beware on these.

Interesting Doc. So..thats an indicator that OEM bearingsclearance at least in this case is sufficient, while the coating did the trick?
As they looked brand new after 13k miles, why don't you serm to be ok? (asking as I may have missed some piece in the thread).

Cheers

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Interesting Doc. So..thats an indicator that OEM bearingsclearance at least in this case is sufficient, while the coating did the trick?
As they looked brand new after 13k miles, why don't you serm to be ok? (asking as I may have missed some piece in the thread).

Cheers

because

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

I was very disappointed with this because I was under the impression that lead could be tracked with these and that they had extra clearance like BE, but that is not the case as the clearance measurements in this thread show. And the uoa's I ran were pretty useless as obviously there is no lead in the 702/3 bearings

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

because

Still not following mate, why the need to measure lead when the shells are running fine..? (or my swenglish playing me tricks?)

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Still not following mate, why the need to measure lead when the shells are running fine..? (or my swenglish playing me tricks?)

I would imagine for peace of mind. Quick and easy way to tell the shells are fine is to have an oil analysis, vs having to pull the bearings again. The shells look fine *now*, but long-term, I'm sure we'd all like to have some method to verify this as opposed to having to pull them again.

And more than that, for me, is that he didn't get what he paid for. He specified exactly what he wanted, paid for it, then got something else. I wouldn't be too happy, either. From what I understand, the coated 702 bearings don't allow the extra clearance.....and all they are are OEM bearings that have been coated.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

I would imagine for peace of mind. Quick and easy way to tell the shells are fine is to have an oil analysis, vs having to pull the bearings again. The shells look fine *now*, but long-term, I'm sure we'd all like to have some method to verify this as opposed to having to pull them again.

Although 13k isn't huge I personally would feel good. With no wear what so ever I simply would assume it stays that way, whether due to bearings and/or the way the engine is treated, all good.

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Although 13k isn't huge I personally would feel good. With no wear what so ever I simply would assume it stays that way, whether due to bearings and/or the way the engine is treated, all good.

If there's one thing I've learned about this car it's to never assume anything

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Interesting Doc. So..thats an indicator that OEM bearingsclearance at least in this case is sufficient, while the coating did the trick?
As they looked brand new after 13k miles, why don't you serm to be ok? (asking as I may have missed some piece in the thread).

Cheers

I was upset because, like what77said, I was under the impression that these were custom clevites and I'd be able to monitor how the coating was holding up by looking for lead. Had they been wearing terribly I'd never have known and would've kept driving until something gave. Yes luckily they worked great which speaks volumes for the coating, but if they hadn't worked well vac's mistake could've cost me the engine. Just wanted everyone to be aware and make sure you know what's going in the engine. The fact that they did work so well is interesting too and probably warrants some looking into.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

I was upset because, like what77said, I was under the impression that these were custom clevites and I'd be able to monitor how the coating was holding up by looking for lead. Had they been wearing terribly I'd never have known and would've kept driving until something gave. Yes luckily they worked great which speaks volumes for the coating, but if they hadn't worked well vac's mistake could've cost me the engine. Just wanted everyone to be aware and make sure you know what's going in the engine. The fact that they did work so well is interesting too and probably warrants some looking into.

Got it Doc, agree a bit of a mystery why they shipped the (2nd gen) OEM shells. Still, yes indeed interesting to hear they came out like new. Not planning to change myself but will still be interesting to hear why these where shipped.

Cheers

[Sean_Himself]

In for the updates and info

[Theodore]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

I figured someone would ask as it does seem counter-intuitive. Probably going to sell the car before my warranty runs out anyway but my reasoning is this: I like the way the car runs on recommended weight oil in the super hot climate I live in. I ran 0/5w40 for the last year and the engine made a lot of noise and just didn't seem as happy. And possibly, whatever failed could be related to running a thinner oil than spec'd. Dunno yet, obviously, and may never know. But I've always been told you can run tight bearings and thin oil or loose bearings and thick oil, but not the other way around...so if I were to change bearings I think I'd prefer to run an industry standard clearance and factory recommended oil weights as opposed to the tighter VAC's and m1. If I didn't live where it was 95+ from late May through mid- Sept things might be different because I know there are benefits to running tighter clearances, but in the heat of summer, I'm not comfortable with w40 anymore.

The Redline guy in this video at 7:17 says the E36 and E46 Vanos won't work on the track with oil weights lower than 40. Do you think the 40 weight oil was flirting with the "not enough oil pressure" condition he mentions in the video and may have caused your Vanos to perform poorly?

(Video link taken from this other M3Post thread posted by Brian_Fantana.

[Doc Oc]

There are a lot of guys running 0w40 that would say no, but I'm not so sure. Everyone on the site says the oil pressure stays in spec but I've read stories of lifter blow by in high rpm engines running thin oil and seen it mentioned that it could effect the vanos. I don't know but I'm sticking with m1 5w50 from now on.

[L4ces]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Got it Doc, agree a bit of a mystery why they shipped the (2nd gen) OEM shells. Still, yes indeed interesting to hear they came out like new. Not planning to change myself but will still be interesting to hear why these where shipped.

Cheers

You got me thinking Doc. I had mine done at VAC and I am also wondering what they put it. When I called I was told the VAC bearings made by them. Then I asked OEM and coated or Clevite with extra clearance? I was told Calico but not sure. I am hoping to get details. I too wanted the lead based for tracking purposes. I was also concerned that the hardened newer OEMs might be harder on the crankshaft (but if they are, they could still be softer than the cranskshaft so I dunno what to think).

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by L4ces

You got me thinking Doc. I had mine done at VAC and I am also wondering what they put it. When I called I was told the VAC bearings made by them. Then I asked OEM and coated or Clevite with extra clearance? I was told Calico but not sure. I am hoping to get details. I too wanted the lead based for tracking purposes. I was also concerned that the hardened newer OEMs might be harder on the crankshaft (but if they are, they could still be softer than the cranskshaft so I dunno what to think).

I've called or emailed VAC on many occasions and each time it seems like I talk to someone different, never one who seems to actually know anything about what they sell. I'v never been filled with confidence after communication with VAC. I don't know who you have to hunt down there to get a knowledgeable individual and I don't know who is building their engines, but (hopefully) it's not the people answering their phones.

I think the 2nd gen OEM bearings would work fine if there were adequate clearance. No bearing will last without sufficient oiling, so IMO the main advantage to the copper bearings is that you can track their condition with oil analysis.

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by L4ces

You got me thinking Doc. I had mine done at VAC and I am also wondering what they put it. When I called I was told the VAC bearings made by them. Then I asked OEM and coated or Clevite with extra clearance? I was told Calico but not sure. I am hoping to get details. I too wanted the lead based for tracking purposes. I was also concerned that the hardened newer OEMs might be harder on the crankshaft (but if they are, they could still be softer than the cranskshaft so I dunno what to think).

That vagueness from vac is probably a red flag but look at it this way....we have proof that the coated oems worked fine. And as far as I know, that can't be said of their custom clevites.

[UPSROD]

Why not go directly to Calico?

[anerbe]

I see most of VAC's problems is in their inventory management and shipping processes.

To ensure you have the right parts - confirm the stampings on the bearings themselves! If the shop received them, have them take pictures for you!

Regarding physical quality of the bearings itself, this is the responsibility of Clevite and Calico, the same manufacturers of the failing bearings all the way to the gold standard BE bearings. What they decide to ship to the sellers depends on them. I don't know if there's quality checks regarding dimensionals and conditioning of the bearings once arrived to BE or VAC, or if Clevite has different quality or inspection process between bearings being sent to BE vs. VAC.

I expect that both BE and VAC have different specs for nominal dimensions for the bearings - unless proven otherwise, the quality/variation of the physical parts leaving Clevite to BE/VAC are at the same standards. If not, I would be questioning Clevite themselves on their variation.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by anerbe

I see most of VAC's problems is in their inventory management and shipping processes.

To ensure you have the right parts - confirm the stampings on the bearings themselves! If the shop received them, have them take pictures for you!

Regarding physical quality of the bearings itself, this is the responsibility of Clevite and Calico, the same manufacturers of the failing bearings all the way to the gold standard BE bearings. What they decide to ship to the sellers depends on them. I don't know if there's quality checks regarding dimensionals and conditioning of the bearings once arrived to BE or VAC, or if Clevite has different quality or inspection process between bearings being sent to BE vs. VAC.

I expect that both BE and VAC have different specs for nominal dimensions for the bearings - unless proven otherwise, the quality/variation of the physical parts leaving Clevite to BE/VAC are at the same standards. If not, I would be questioning Clevite themselves on their variation.

Correct, the specifications are different, but the manufacturing tolerances are the same.

The specs on the manufacturing tolerances may be the same, but what happens afterwards is not. BE measures every single bearing. They are binned by size and shipped as matched sets. When that's not always possible, then sets are comprised of upper/lower shells to ensure uniformity of clearances at the customer installation. In general, BE doesn't need upper and lower shells like OEM, but in reality, BE does create sets like this to ensure uniform tolerances.

Any shells found to be out of spec are tossed (or used for photos).

[anerbe]

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

Correct, the specifications are different, but the manufacturing tolerances are the same.

The specs on the manufacturing tolerances may be the same, but what happens afterwards is not. BE measures every single bearing. They are binned by size and shipped as matched sets. When that's not always possible, then sets are comprised of upper/lower shells to ensure uniformity of clearances at the customer installation. In general, BE doesn't need upper and lower shells like OEM, but in reality, BE does create sets like this to ensure uniform tolerances.

Any shells found to be out of spec are tossed (or used for photos).

Great to know

BE lost me as a customer due to availability when I needed bearings fast. Hopefully in the future for other customers, the sales forecasting and ordering are aligned to avoid future backorders.

[Doc Oc]

Remember BE is a small outfit so they can't stock 500 sets at a time (even if their cost is half the selling price that's a 150g outlay) and clevite takes about 6 mos to deliver so there's bound to be stock issues. Imo a good product is worth waiting for. Seeing that their cometition may just be sending what's in stock at the time it may be worth the wait.

[Gesler]

But it looks like you proved "what's in stock" from VAC works. BE bearings don't have such 'proof' yet. This whole thing is getting even more distasteful by each post.

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

Remember BE is a small outfit so they can't stock 500 sets at a time (even if their cost is half the selling price that's a 150g outlay) and clevite takes about 6 mos to deliver so there's bound to be stock issues. Imo a good product is worth waiting for. Seeing that their cometition may just be sending what's in stock at the time it may be worth the wait.