2014 GT3 vs. 2011 E92M3 (pending)

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

When you guys say your car is overheating, what exactly do you mean?
In my case, my oil temp. goes very high after a few laps driving 10/10th in anything over 80F.
For example, i was at WGI not too long ago, temp. was 84F, high humidity, and after a few hard laps in the second, third and 4th sessions, my oil temp. was around 280, very close to 300. When i saw that, i had to cool down for half a lap and temp. would drop down to 255 very quickly. I am running ESS VT-1 550 kit with catless x-pipe and M24 oil cooler. There was no loss of power or any warnig, car was flying, but that oil temp. reaching 280 bothers me now. I did try turning the heat on, which healped a little.
On the street, when driving normally, or agressively, oil temp. never goes over 210.

I reached ~275 on track for the first time ever at Putnam the other weekend. Similar conditions to what you describe. I'm now looking into some cooling solutions.

DCT runs notably hotter than 6MT. I never got that hot in any conditions with 6MT.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I've been told that the main difference is you need to drive a P-car from the rear wheels. Think of your front wheels as useless training wheels. So whatever you need to do to be on the gas...you do it. If there's any doubt...you give it more, not less. Because once you lighten up the back end in a turn...you're done.

I think Ti-Jean mentioned some of the differences in driving dynamics quite eloquently; however, I think perceiving those notes as the GT3 being a nervous car that will bite you back with the smallest mistake is an exaggeration, and unfortunately all too common. More specifically, generalizing this perception to all GT3s is not accurate.

First, the 996 platform in general was a... shall we say "a first try" from many aspects and the 996 GT3 was a recipient of that work in progress. It was a wonderful first platform, but it was a first for Porsche; the 996 GT3 definitely was difficult to drive and I have tremendous respect for people that can drive it well. The difference in chassis dynamics between 996.1 and 996.2 weren't different, although there were improvements in configuration/setup, but no changes to chassis.

The 997 platform was a very significant improvement over the 996. So much so that a 997.2 GT3 on MPCS or similar tire is actually noticeably faster than a moderately track prep'd 996.2 GT3 on HoHos, even on short tracks. I believe this is mainly due to the wider track front/rear, rear suspension moving to 5-link, more rigid tub, longer wheelbase, the engine mounts, etc. and etc. And I think the 991 platform moves the bar further closer to "11," although it is arguable if it is really a "better car."

With 997 GT3 I think the car became quite easy to drive, in fact it was the easiest car to drive for me. Previous to the 997.2 GT3 I had a Cayman S that I drove for 5 years, 80K mi. (~20K track miles) and I thought that was easy, until I stepped into the GT3. It was so natural, so instinctive and so easy to control, going fast wasn't the challenge I was expecting.

For example, the attached G-G plot is between the CS and the GT3, same track (VIR), same driver (me), same tires (R888s), very similar weather conditions (March, mid to high 60s, dry), both showroom stock vehicles. I think the differences in handling, braking and power capacity are quite apparent. So, if you take the power out of the equation: 4.2 secs gained on the straights of VIR against the CS, the remaining 4.4 secs comes from braking and cornering. All GT3s, but particularly the 997 GT3, have much wider performance envelop, but more importantly it is much easier to utilize the full spectrum of that envelop than in any other car; you have the best traction from the tires at every situation. And to add to that, once you step over the line, it is in slow motion and very easy to catch if you do the right things, which is to carefully modulate either the brakes or throttle, not necessarily the steering wheel.

Here is a video in which the two 996 GT3s are dedicated track cars and accordingly prepared (HoHo R6 tires), as well as the two Cayman Ses (987.2 on NT01 tires), and I am driving what was my daily driver on R888s (white car), all instructor drivers:

The 991, I believe, is much more stable and easier to control and has far more power of course, so I do not expect the OP will have as much of a dangerous experience as sometime it is made out to be. So my point after allmby B.S. is that the last two gen GT3s are not evil cars or hard to drive at all, and I think the OP in the 991 platform will have some great times on track, wish him the best.

[AxisMagi]

I've got DCT and ESS 625 supercharger so that is adding significantly to
the problem. Street temps are no problem at all. The issue was not apparent
until my driving skills advanced on track. So in OC3's case I'm guessing
your just driving harder

My tech friend built an E90 world challenge race car which had continual
heat issues he was never able to resolve, ended up selling the car
and not sure if next owners figured out a solution.

Overheating meaning oil temps pushing up past 285 and car going into limp
mode, rpm and lower gear restriction until temps come back down below the
threshold, usually within a slow cool down lap in 7th gear, but pretty quickly
go limp again once I'm heat soaked, even short shifting as much as
possible. With the EAS mister kit helping a lot I'm still limited if air temps are +80
degrees. No fun when the chase is on!

[SYT_Shadow]

A question to those overheating their cars: can't you install a meth system to the front oil cooler?

I imagine it's a pain to keep filled up, but at least it should allow 10/10ths for a long time!

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by AxisMagi

I've got DCT and ESS 625 supercharger so that is adding significantly to
the problem. Street temps are no problem at all. The issue was not apparent
until my driving skills advanced on track. So in OC3's case I'm guessing
your just driving harder

My tech friend built an E90 world challenge race car which had continual
heat issues he was never able to resolve, ended up selling the car
and not sure if next owners figured out a solution.

Overheating meaning oil temps pushing up past 285 and car going into limp
mode, rpm and lower gear restriction until temps come back down below the
threshold, usually within a slow cool down lap in 7th gear, but pretty quickly
go limp again once I'm heat soaked, even short shifting as much as
possible. With the EAS mister kit helping a lot I'm still limited if air temps are +80
degrees. No fun when the chase is on!

I think your issue is exacerbated with your bigger intercooler blocking the radiator and oil cooler and running much higher boost. Thats why i chose non intercooled kit, but even though i got a bigger oil cooler, i still see high oil temp., which concerns me now. Before the supercharger my oil would never go past 255 at the same track in similar conditions. This oil cooler does help to cool down quickly during cool down lap, but it looks like it doesnt prevent it from overheatting when pushing hard.
This is off topic, my apologies to OP, maybe someone should open a new thread addressing overheating issues and how to deal with them.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by FTS

I think Ti-Jean mentioned some of the differences in driving dynamics quite eloquently; however, I think perceiving those notes as the GT3 being a nervous car that will bite you back with the smallest mistake is an exaggeration, and unfortunately all too common. More specifically, generalizing this perception to all GT3s is not accurate.

First, the 996 platform in general was a... shall we say "a first try" from many aspects and the 996 GT3 was a recipient of that work in progress. It was a wonderful first platform, but it was a first for Porsche; the 996 GT3 definitely was difficult to drive and I have tremendous respect for people that can drive it well. The difference in chassis dynamics between 996.1 and 996.2 weren't different, although there were improvements in configuration/setup, but no changes to chassis.

The 997 platform was a very significant improvement over the 996. So much so that a 997.2 GT3 on MPCS or similar tire is actually noticeably faster than a moderately track prep'd 996.2 GT3 on HoHos, even on short tracks. I believe this is mainly due to the wider track front/rear, rear suspension moving to 5-link, more rigid tub, longer wheelbase, the engine mounts, etc. and etc. And I think the 991 platform moves the bar further closer to "11," although it is arguable if it is really a "better car."

With 997 GT3 I think the car became quite easy to drive, in fact it was the easiest car to drive for me. Previous to the 997.2 GT3 I had a Cayman S that I drove for 5 years, 80K mi. (~20K track miles) and I thought that was easy, until I stepped into the GT3. It was so natural, so instinctive and so easy to control, going fast wasn't the challenge I was expecting.

For example, the attached G-G plot is between the CS and the GT3, same track (VIR), same driver (me), same tires (R888s), very similar weather conditions (March, mid to high 60s, dry), both showroom stock vehicles. I think the differences in handling, braking and power capacity are quite apparent. So, if you take the power out of the equation: 4.2 secs gained on the straights of VIR against the CS, the remaining 4.4 secs comes from braking and cornering. All GT3s, but particularly the 997 GT3, have much wider performance envelop, but more importantly it is much easier to utilize the full spectrum of that envelop than in any other car; you have the best traction from the tires at every situation. And to add to that, once you step over the line, it is in slow motion and very easy to catch if you do the right things, which is to carefully modulate either the brakes or throttle, not necessarily the steering wheel.

Here is a video in which the two 996 GT3s are dedicated track cars and accordingly prepared (HoHo R6 tires), as well as the two Cayman Ses (987.2 on NT01 tires), and I am driving what was my daily driver on R888s (white car), all instructor drivers:

The 991, I believe, is much more stable and easier to control and has far more power of course, so I do not expect the OP will have as much of a dangerous experience as sometime it is made out to be. So my point after allmby B.S. is that the last two gen GT3s are not evil cars or hard to drive at all, and I think the OP in the 991 platform will have some great times on track, wish him the best.

Not to take anything away from Ti-jean, but based on a full session ride-along I got in his GT3, I have to agree with FTS. The way the tail slid out and the rate at which Ti-Jean steered into it, etc, didn't feel all that different from my M3.

A car is a car is a car. Physics is the same/similar in fast-moving vehicles. It just all comes down to the driver/driver's-ability, which Ti-Jean has plenty of.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

I reached ~275 on track for the first time ever at Putnam the other weekend. Similar conditions to what you describe. I'm now looking into some cooling solutions.

DCT runs notably hotter than 6MT. I never got that hot in any conditions with 6MT.

That's what several 6MT guys here in SoCal all said too. And, these guys drive hard.

Originally Posted by AxisMagi

I've got DCT and ESS 625 supercharger so that is adding significantly to
the problem. Street temps are no problem at all. The issue was not apparent
until my driving skills advanced on track. So in OC3's case I'm guessing
your just driving harder

My tech friend built an E90 world challenge race car which had continual
heat issues he was never able to resolve, ended up selling the car
and not sure if next owners figured out a solution.

Overheating meaning oil temps pushing up past 285 and car going into limp
mode, rpm and lower gear restriction until temps come back down below the
threshold, usually within a slow cool down lap in 7th gear, but pretty quickly
go limp again once I'm heat soaked, even short shifting as much as
possible. With the EAS mister kit helping a lot I'm still limited if air temps are +80
degrees. No fun when the chase is on!

Yea, my car in summer months easily gets to 285F, but on 100+F days, I can't even finish second of two consecutive hot laps without temp reaching that.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

A question to those overheating their cars: can't you install a meth system to the front oil cooler?

I imagine it's a pain to keep filled up, but at least it should allow 10/10ths for a long time!

Yea there is - mist spray system. I'm aware of a couple of E90 M3's in SoCal with that system and it apparently works well. But, I don't want to deal with having to carry/bring distilled jugs of water, or you get lazy and wind up using tap water at the tracks, etc. Easy solution for me is to just take the summer off.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by FTS

I think Ti-Jean mentioned some of the differences in driving dynamics quite eloquently; however, I think perceiving those notes as the GT3 being a nervous car that will bite you back with the smallest mistake is an exaggeration, and unfortunately all too common. More specifically, generalizing this perception to all GT3s is not accurate.

First, the 996 platform in general was a... shall we say "a first try" from many aspects and the 996 GT3 was a recipient of that work in progress. It was a wonderful first platform, but it was a first for Porsche; the 996 GT3 definitely was difficult to drive and I have tremendous respect for people that can drive it well. The difference in chassis dynamics between 996.1 and 996.2 weren't different, although there were improvements in configuration/setup, but no changes to chassis.

The 997 platform was a very significant improvement over the 996. So much so that a 997.2 GT3 on MPCS or similar tire is actually noticeably faster than a moderately track prep'd 996.2 GT3 on HoHos, even on short tracks. I believe this is mainly due to the wider track front/rear, rear suspension moving to 5-link, more rigid tub, longer wheelbase, the engine mounts, etc. and etc. And I think the 991 platform moves the bar further closer to "11," although it is arguable if it is really a "better car."

With 997 GT3 I think the car became quite easy to drive, in fact it was the easiest car to drive for me. Previous to the 997.2 GT3 I had a Cayman S that I drove for 5 years, 80K mi. (~20K track miles) and I thought that was easy, until I stepped into the GT3. It was so natural, so instinctive and so easy to control, going fast wasn't the challenge I was expecting.

For example, the attached G-G plot is between the CS and the GT3, same track (VIR), same driver (me), same tires (R888s), very similar weather conditions (March, mid to high 60s, dry), both showroom stock vehicles. I think the differences in handling, braking and power capacity are quite apparent. So, if you take the power out of the equation: 4.2 secs gained on the straights of VIR against the CS, the remaining 4.4 secs comes from braking and cornering. All GT3s, but particularly the 997 GT3, have much wider performance envelop, but more importantly it is much easier to utilize the full spectrum of that envelop than in any other car; you have the best traction from the tires at every situation. And to add to that, once you step over the line, it is in slow motion and very easy to catch if you do the right things, which is to carefully modulate either the brakes or throttle, not necessarily the steering wheel.

Here is a video in which the two 996 GT3s are dedicated track cars and accordingly prepared (HoHo R6 tires), as well as the two Cayman Ses (987.2 on NT01 tires), and I am driving what was my daily driver on R888s (white car), all instructor drivers:

The 991, I believe, is much more stable and easier to control and has far more power of course, so I do not expect the OP will have as much of a dangerous experience as sometime it is made out to be. So my point after allmby B.S. is that the last two gen GT3s are not evil cars or hard to drive at all, and I think the OP in the 991 platform will have some great times on track, wish him the best.

That's great insight into GT3s. My comments were exaggerated of course. I think in general, P-cars have become easier to drive over the years...just like every other car.

To go off on a tangent...IMO that's what makes the E9X M3 such a great car. Because it is one of the rare instances where a succeeding iteration of a particular model has become more wild vs more tame.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

To go off on a tangent...IMO that's what makes the E9X M3 such a great car. Because it is one of the rare instances where a succeeding iteration of a particular model has become more wild vs more tame.

Frankly I am hopeful this is truly the case. I ordered my very first M couple of weeks ago; ton of torque, limited traction, I am imagining a lot of sideways, heart pounding excitement

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by FTS

Frankly I am hopeful this is truly the case. I ordered my very first M couple of weeks ago; ton of torque, limited traction, I am imagining a lot of sideways, heart pounding excitement

Not sure about the F8X...it just seems like an amped up version of the E9X. But the difference between the E46 and E9X is pretty astounding.

[AxisMagi]

For you guys with Porsche experience: Is the driving style at the
limit characteristics with a Cayman similar to the GT3 or somewhere in
the middle? I've thought about doing an engine swap on a Cayman
race car build. Those ITC series Caymans look pretty sweet, more
reliable and cheaper running costs compared to cup cars from what I've read.

[USCTrojanMan29]

Originally Posted by AxisMagi

For you guys with Porsche experience: Is the driving style at the
limit characteristics with a Cayman similar to the GT3 or somewhere in
the middle? I've thought about doing an engine swap on a Cayman
race car build. Those ITC series Caymans look pretty sweet, more
reliable and cheaper running costs compared to cup cars from what I've read.

I think you'll find the answer to your questions over at Rennlist.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by AxisMagi

For you guys with Porsche experience: Is the driving style at the
limit characteristics with a Cayman similar to the GT3 or somewhere in
the middle? I've thought about doing an engine swap on a Cayman
race car build. Those ITC series Caymans look pretty sweet, more
reliable and cheaper running costs compared to cup cars from what I've read.

I thought I knew how to drive, but with the Cayman I learned a whole other level. It is easy to get to its limits, but I never found comfort or confidence once there and I was inconsistent. I could not maintain my driving performance at or near its limits, I think that is primarily how narrow the performance envelop of a mid-engine platform is, may be I am wrong.

An ITC or similar prep'd Cayman will run quite a bit better than stock GT3, but that would be apples/oranges comparison. If you want to a dedicated track car out of the box, the GT3 fits the bill quite well, but don't expect race car performance. On the other hand, IMO the GT3 type cars are too fast to run on track without full safety. The level of confidence those cars give is truly amazing, and suddenly you forget what 70, 100 or 160 mph really mean.

I later learned that aerodynamics on a Cayman make an indescribable difference in terms of stability and performance. The ITC Caymans, or Spec Caymans, or especially WC-level Caymans have truly amazing performance. That difference is about 3 to 4 seconds on a medium size track (~2.5 mi.) over a stock GT3, and they have full safety.

They are less costly to maintain then 997 GT3 Cup car by a mile, no doubt. However, properly tuning a Cayman is more difficult. The GT3 platform, any gen, is now so well known that there are cook books. The Cayman is still too new and it is very sensitive to suspension geometry changes, shocks, springs, tires, ballast placement, etc.

The best value IMHO is probably the 996 GT3 Cup. Not that costly to maintain, easy to drive, very similar to 997.2 GT3/RS, plenty parts, and serious performance. Hard to find though.

[AxisMagi]

Thanks for the great feedback FTS!

I talked to the guys at Heinlein Racing Development who have
built a number of ITC and world challenge Caymans, they
have really dialed the setup. they confirmed what you said about
the limit envelope and balance being amazing once setup and
aero is properly sorted. My dream project would be to build a
Cayman race car with 700hp LS7 motor. Cup car killer without
the rebuild and high running costs. Rennegade hybrids
has already worked out the swap successfully and I would
imagine it would be an epic fun car. Quite the project though...

[STALKER]

I own a 991, I came from a modded E90 M3.

The 991 platform is a real gem, its such a balanced car, and when it does get upset, gives you notice, not like old Pcars. You will be amazed by the amount of grip it has, front and rear. No need to be scared of it at all. My first weekend with my 991 was at Watkins Glen(been there several times before in the M3), first session I took it really easy, and by the 3rd I was so comfortable in the car, probably set my fastest lap time.

If you can get it out on a wet skid pad, its a great too. I learned a lot about the car on a wet skidpad.
Congrats on the car, love it!!!

[FTS]

Originally Posted by AxisMagi

Thanks for the great feedback FTS!

I talked to the guys at Heinlein Racing Development who have
built a number of ITC and world challenge Caymans, they
have really dialed the setup. they confirmed what you said about
the limit envelope and balance being amazing once setup and
aero is properly sorted. My dream project would be to build a
Cayman race car with 700hp LS7 motor. Cup car killer without
the rebuild and high running costs. Rennegade hybrids
has already worked out the swap successfully and I would
imagine it would be an epic fun car. Quite the project though...

That would a Holly Cow build I think You may want to also check bgb motorsports builds with the 3.8 ltr 9A1 engine swaps.

[ChrisF]

Wow, so many usual suspects from Rennlist over here. Pretty funny how many of us have owned or own M3's and 911 variants.

Ok, some feedback in no particular order:

- Currently own E92 and 997.2 GT3. Previously owned a 987.2 Cayman S. Have tracked all except. the M extensively (brakes gave up far too quickly).

- Before buying the Cayman, I'd heard about how it would "spin like a top" once you lost it and how unforgiving it was. For the GT3, I'd heard that it was an incredibly difficult car to drive. I had a fair amount of track time before owning either. Properly setup (this is KEY), both cars are pretty forgiving if you have decent car control skills. You need to invest seat time though and sneak up on their limits. They don't respect people who don't put in the time to learn them.

- I'm strongly in the camp of turning nannies off. Most of cars I tracked early didn't even have any traction control and that was probably a blessing. I don't believe you can feel or learn any skills when electronics are there to catch you. There are plenty of tracks in CA that have plentiful dirt runoff to explore the limits safely. Alternatively, unless you are very comfortable with these cars, at tracks with walls, leave everything on.

- I still use 2nd stage TC for new tracks and/or tracks with walls. I ran Sonoma for the first time a couple of months ago and by the beginning of day 2, felt very confident in the car. Nannies off yielded 2+ seconds lower lap times for me while still holding back.

- The GT3 platform is INFINITELY more fun to drive with everything off. Nailing a turn and doing a very mild controlled drift on exit is something to experience.

- Aero plays a HUGE difference between the Cayman and GT3 platforms. By example, my Cayman S would approach T1 at Autoclub speedway around 135 and it was downright scary. GT3 enters T1 around 160 and feels incredibly planted.

- While I have not yet driven a 991 GT3, my guess is that it is even more stable and easier to drive than the 997.2 platform. I would expect a muted version of 997 dynamics due to all the improvements (engine forward, RWS, wider front track, etc).

Best suggestion I could give would be to get the car to a safe skidpad and experiment with corner entry - both good and bad techniques to feel how the car reacts. Probably could do the same at an autoX practice event too. The GT3 is by far my favorite car ever. I have no idea where I go from here

[Groundpilot]

Always interesting to hear m3 owners opinion about pcars. Especially those who take them to the track. Posts like this make me think more and more about moving towards 991 platform. I never heared about any overheating issues with porsche, and not only these cars are faster and look fantastic, but it looks like they are easier to drive at the limit vs the previous generation.

[lutfy]

I have extensively tracked M3 (all gens, euro vs us, race cars etc) While my current E90 needed a LOT of smoothing (2 piece rotors, caliper guide pins, camber up front, bigger front bar etc.) to make do at the track to meet my expectations, the 997S I have does everything JUST right. The brakes are phenominal, point shoot, motor sound etc.... just a very satisfying car.

I have had M3s since grad school days so it was more of a loyalty issue (even opened up a BMW M shop in Dubai). However, if truth be told, Porsches are better on track handsdown.

I still love my M3. That V8 sound is to die for

M3= street car which 'can be driven' on the track
911 = track car which 'is often driven' on the street

After a 911, I dont know where to go from here either

Lutfy

[SYT_Shadow]

Interesting points guys

I track a lot with PCA and do not get the impression that they are way better for the track than M cars. So either the cars aren't better for the track or their drivers are worse than M drivers.

Maybe M cars are a little like Miatas, as in their drivers are really good. What I have definitely seen is that driving skill is inversely proportionate to annual income.

But I want to believe

[AxisMagi]

This thread is making me lust for the OP's GT3 more than I already was lol

I ran the numbers for the LS7 swap cayman race build idea and would end
up $120k+ for base DE level, $150 for ITC level, and upwards to $185k
for world challenge level parts.

May as well just get a 991 GT3 RS with pdk and cage at that point.
The nice thing about running any of the GT3 platforms would be less
engine rebuild costs. You have to be pretty loaded to race cup cars.
I definitely want full cage and safety setup for next step.

I've heard the PCA events are typically more tame drivers but with some
excellent advanced drivers as well. Makes sense considering the avg costs
of the entry level cars vs NASA events. There's a lot to be said for learning
with a slower car that you don't mind going off with.

Traction control seems potentially more dangerous sometimes getting
interrupted, definitely off. I'd like to spend more time on a skid pad.

Current debate is between uber cheap TA2/ACA style tube frame,
strapped to V8 shaking in a hot dirty cage manhandling the wildebeast workout
vs a refined precision race car aka Por$che.

Ah decisions decisions...

[STALKER]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Interesting points guys

I track a lot with PCA and do not get the impression that they are way better for the track than M cars. So either the cars aren't better for the track or their drivers are worse than M drivers.

Maybe M cars are a little like Miatas, as in their drivers are really good. What I have definitely seen is that driving skill is inversely proportionate to annual income.

But I want to believe

Its far superior IMO right out of the box. Thats the huge difference.
I spent a fortune on mods and tuning the car cars components till I gotta it right for me. I'm no pros, far from it actually, but I have been tracking for a while now and run in the advance group(make of that what you will, LOL).

The 991, just needs fluids and pads, and tires if you choose. Thats it and its fast right out of the box with zero over heating issues. The car is gentle on its tires compared to the M3.

Thats actually one of the big selling features for me personally, I got tired of modding the M3(it was a bit of an obsession to be honest), and the 991 was great because it needs zero mods(pads and fluids is really it).

Car is a joy to drive and progressive I have found.