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03-15-2012, 08:39 PM | #67 |
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Another point to consider is what the MDM is doing with your brakes during a track run.
At Lightning this pass year, I was running with another M3 at the same speed for the last 5 + minutes on the track before we both came in. His brakes were steaming hot and mine were fine. He said he was running with MDM on and every tight turn, he could see the little light flashing a bit. I was running DSC off and if a little slippage occurred in some turns, that was what I was used to ( natural reactions being built up). The point is that you are going to work your brakes more with MDM on than with them off, even if "you" don't touch your brakes.
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03-15-2012, 09:26 PM | #68 |
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Good point. And you're also going to work your tires more with MDM on. I tried the M3 traction control for the first time this past weekend, and I hated it because the tires seemed to be scrubbing everywhere as MDM kicked in. I could feel the rubber and money going bye-bye. And in the end I was .3s slower with MDM on.
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03-15-2012, 09:30 PM | #69 | |
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Senna is spinning in his grave...and not because he forgot to turn traction control on. The truth is you'll never earn a race license from a reputable sanctioning body if you don't learn how to drive without traction control. And the only folks who may consider you a great driver are other drivers who always drive with traction control on. Car control has always been a big part of being a great driver and most would say the very biggest, and it'll be a very sad day if that ever changes. Last edited by yyoo; 03-15-2012 at 09:51 PM.. |
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03-15-2012, 09:53 PM | #70 |
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03-15-2012, 10:14 PM | #71 | |
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Just saying, you guys are going into extremes by bringing up Senna into this discussion. I'll report back for sure on how it goes for me |
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03-15-2012, 10:23 PM | #72 |
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To me it's not a matter of mdm slowing you down, but but rather each time you're at the track you're training your brain with dsc in play. It covers a lot of very bad habits - mistakes where without dsc you would simply spin. This gets magnified even more when you approach the limits of the car.
If you're having fun and don't want to risk trashing your nice toy, by all means leave it on. But if you're possibly pursuing a racing career then you should never have dsc on. This is coming from a guy who leaves mdm on at the track |
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03-15-2012, 10:41 PM | #73 | ||
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I don't think most of us have deadlines. I think most of us want to be doing this for many years. I don't think anyone here is rushing to reach a particular lap time so that he can finally say, "Wonderful! Now I can quit the hobby." The journey is the reward. And the journey to becoming a good driver is a very rewarding one. Last edited by yyoo; 03-15-2012 at 10:53 PM.. |
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03-15-2012, 10:59 PM | #74 | |
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Yeah, the Senna reference was a bit over the top. But I had to do it...if only for the spin joke. |
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03-15-2012, 11:05 PM | #75 |
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03-15-2012, 11:10 PM | #76 | |||
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Anyhow, after having driven thru high speed sweeping turns like Buttonwillow's Riverside and turns 2, 8 & 9 at Big Willow at certain exhilirating speeds in MDM, try doing that with DSC off (and no wing) & keep pushing it and see what this "rewarding journey" will get you and the car... In case I haven't made it clear so far, it's a compromise. At this point in my tracking endeavor and car setup, I'll take MDM and deal with slow/tight turns and take being more aggressive over high speed sections.
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03-15-2012, 11:28 PM | #77 | |
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If you stick around long enough though, I do beleive your goal WILL change . Have fun, and mostly be safe so you do stick around long enough . Last edited by CanAutM3; 03-15-2012 at 11:35 PM.. |
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03-16-2012, 12:36 AM | #78 | ||
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Back when I started in the hobby, the idea of having it off was not a big deal. There was no special respect attached to having it off nor any great fear of turning it off. Today, though, having it on seems to be the new normal. It's fun trying. And though I'll never be a professional, I might well return to amateur racing some day. But that's not for everyone. Quote:
Speed is risky. Driving at the limit is risky. I choose to mitigate the risks with track insurance and by improving my skills as a driver. Others choose to mitigate with traction control. Different strokes for different folks. Last edited by yyoo; 03-16-2012 at 01:28 AM.. |
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03-16-2012, 01:22 AM | #79 | |
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As for the "respect" thing... I brought that up because you're intent on lowering your lap times, and I assumed that meant beating your peers if not gaining their respect. Bad assumption? At any rate, most track drivers are very competitive and I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to be faster and admired for being faster. |
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03-16-2012, 08:11 AM | #80 |
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My comment about over driving if MDM interferes has to do with over driving on the street. Which, let's face it, is what most people do with these cars...street driving "hard".
BMWCCA teaches its instructors to be 100% indifferent as to what traction control a student should use. There's (perceived) liability in suggesting either one. It's totally a driver's choice. There are two times when traction control are good as far as I'm concerned...when someone is just starting out and doesn't have car control skills and is generally overwhelmed with track driving. The second is when you are more advanced, you turn it on to see if you can drive the track without it interfering. Kind of like an instructor being with you to say dial it back a hair. Drive as fast as possible without it kicking in. My last point is this. In my head...we all go to the track to become better driver's, learn new skills, and generally just have a good time. As you learn to become a better driver, you should also be learning the ability to jump into any car (or kart or whatever) and drive it fast. You learn to drive fast because of the mechanical abilities of the car...not because the car can save you. How would you ever begin to understand tire pressure, chassis dynamics, or finding grip if you have this third party between you and the road? The M3 is a challenge of a car to learn on because it's fast and capable. Your mistakes happen at a much higher rate of speed and there's less room for recovery. Having traction control on is great but should really be reserved for the street. IMHO.
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03-16-2012, 08:17 AM | #81 |
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The big problem with this discusion is not whether MDM should be on or off is the fact that proper car control skills need to be taught before a student ever gets on the track!If a driver is skilled in proper car control this discusion would never be happening as there would zero aprehension about switching it off.Is it not the goal of trackdays not to improve ones driving skill and then to improve lap times as the skills are polished?Using driver aids just impedes this process and does not help the driver out at all.
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03-17-2012, 03:42 AM | #82 | ||
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On my very first track day (Streets of Willow), I paid extra for an instructor. Long story short, all this guy (who was purportedly a part-time instructor at Skip Barber school) did was to go for a joy ride of sorts in my car, storming around a track that he was obviously familiar with but, just as obviously, I was not. The apprehension I felt as he was flying down the back straightaway ('twas CW configuration that day) and approaching a blind off-camber corner (it dips down and to the right) was not educational at all. I recall just holding on & murmuring "holy sh*t... I ain't learning crap with this guy." Then, a couple months later, I sign up for "Performance Driving Clinic" at Buttonwillow, at which we were supposed to get some skidpad time. But, when we got to the track, we see a bunch of trailers unloading go-karts at the area where the car control clinic was supposed to be held at. Ok, so no skidpad time today then, whatever. May be instructor-ridealong would be useful, I thought. Well, this dude in his 60's gets in my car to drive it, and I'm riding shotgun. Since it's not his car, he's not driving that fast around the track. And, as I had been on that track once before, between my bit of track-familiarity and this guy moping around the track at 50%, there wasn't a darn thing to learn. He just had a good time playing with the paddle shifter. Every time he pulled the left lever to downshift and heard the engine rev-match, he'd go "ho ho ho, that's wonderful." What the f*ck... Good thing I did a couple of drifting clinic several years ago to at least learn the basics of car control (paid extra to rent the organizers' prep'd S14's and learned how to do donuts, figure 8's, J-turns, etc), as I didn't learn squat from instructors at these later track events.
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03-17-2012, 08:04 AM | #83 | |
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03-17-2012, 11:55 AM | #84 | |
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The problem is that it is not easy to get the proper skills instruction and practice, unless you start out in karts or auto cross. Despite what a lot of clubs think about their ability to provide instruction, they all pretty much ineffective. So, people are on their own to learn in their own way. As far as goals, I think most people just want to drive thei fast car fast. If that means driving their 1000HP car with all the nannys enabled, then most are happy. Last edited by sleepless; 03-17-2012 at 12:13 PM.. |
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03-17-2012, 07:37 PM | #85 | ||
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I think most weekend track people realize, without having to be drilled repeatedly and in condescending ways, that turning off traction control and relying on driving sense & experience is the better and preferred way. So, I find it odd to hear people on this type of forum (i.e. this is not a forum by & for people who are seriously trying to get into competitive racing) stressing the importance of going DSC off as if all participants of this thread are in various stages of preparing for eventual wheel-to-wheel competitive racing. I thought this is a, by & large, M3 enthusiast forum? I mean, am I participating in a discussions thread in www.I-will-soon-be-racing-in-SCCA-series.com and didn't realize it? You hear "race license" and "Senna" being mentioned and gotta wonder am I on the same realm of reality as some of the people in this thread? I realize that some are very passionate about all this, but come on. It's the same kind of crap you see on this forum that goes something like "oh you drive an automatic, whereas I manually shift gears, so you suck and I'm a superior driver and a human being." Really? Rowing your own gears is that "rewarding" just as driving w/ traction control off is that much "rewarding"?
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03-17-2012, 07:49 PM | #86 |
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i ran pacific raceways today in the wet for most of the day. i have never turned off the traction control but usually use MDM even in the wet. today partially because of this thread i ran a few laps with DSC full off and didnt feel much difference from running it in mdm and this was in the wet. i drive with the intention that its my responsibility to control the car not the nannies, but to this point have liked the feeling of the big errors possibly being caught by them. i to this point have used it as a tool to help me go faster without as big of risk. maybe that is in my head but after today i feel pretty good about my driving being able to control a high hp car in dangerous conditions. i will probably continue to run MDM in the wet and dsc off most likely in the dry now.
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03-17-2012, 09:39 PM | #87 |
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Pacific Raceways in the wet is definitely an MDM track. Twice I've seen three cars totaled in one day! Just too many things to hit there. I'll be at the Ridge tomorrow where it is supposed to rain and probably snow a bit! It my M3's first track day and it will have MDM enabled probably all day.
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03-18-2012, 01:02 AM | #88 | |
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With that said, people do seem to learn anyway. And I wouldn't discount the importance of a good instructor. Really good ones may be few and far between, but I've had instructors who helped me make leaps and bounds in my driving in just a session or two. And if you own an e9x M3, you can probably afford to buy the services of a professional coach for a day. A good coach can help pros go faster, so they should be able to help you as well. By the way, I've found that the best way to find a second or two when I thought a second or two is impossible is to have someone really fast drive your car while you sit shotgun. Of course, choose wisely. You don't want that someone wrecking your car. Last edited by yyoo; 03-18-2012 at 01:21 AM.. |
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