From M3 to GT3 - Downsides and Upsides

[elh0102]

I haven't read all this thread, but I'll mention my experience as a 6 GT3 owner for about a year, and now preparing to sell it and get a new M3. Before the GT3, I had two E46 M3s, a C6 ZO6, 997S, Cayman S, and did a lot of track time with all of them. My track time is now very limited, which is the main reason I'm selling the GT3. They are wonderful cars, and the 997 is a better dual purpose or street car than mine. Most people are surprised that their lap time is not very impressive at first with the GT3. Like all 911 platform cars, it requires considerable dedication to learn to drive it near the limit, and it is much less confidence inspiring than the M3 (or any car with a good suspension and more neutral balance). Engine, brakes, steering, suspension, all wonderful. If you are going to spend a lot of time on track, and willing to work with the car, you may find it very rewarding. But, don't assume you will be super fast in it. If you spend a lot street time with it, you will probably move from loving it, to toleration, to selling it. Good luck with your decision.

[skierman64]

Originally Posted by elh0102

I haven't read all this thread, but I'll mention my experience as a 6 GT3 owner for about a year, and now preparing to sell it and get a new M3. Before the GT3, I had two E46 M3s, a C6 ZO6, 997S, Cayman S, and did a lot of track time with all of them. My track time is now very limited, which is the main reason I'm selling the GT3. They are wonderful cars, and the 997 is a better dual purpose or street car than mine. Most people are surprised that their lap time is not very impressive at first with the GT3. Like all 911 platform cars, it requires considerable dedication to learn to drive it near the limit, and it is much less confidence inspiring than the M3 (or any car with a good suspension and more neutral balance). Engine, brakes, steering, suspension, all wonderful. If you are going to spend a lot of time on track, and willing to work with the car, you may find it very rewarding. But, don't assume you will be super fast in it. If you spend a lot street time with it, you will probably move from loving it, to toleration, to selling it. Good luck with your decision.

There's an opinion I trust and believe. The no spin zone (pun not intended).

[devo]

Originally Posted by elh0102

I haven't read all this thread, but I'll mention my experience as a 6 GT3 owner for about a year, and now preparing to sell it and get a new M3. Before the GT3, I had two E46 M3s, a C6 ZO6, 997S, Cayman S, and did a lot of track time with all of them. My track time is now very limited, which is the main reason I'm selling the GT3. They are wonderful cars, and the 997 is a better dual purpose or street car than mine. Most people are surprised that their lap time is not very impressive at first with the GT3. Like all 911 platform cars, it requires considerable dedication to learn to drive it near the limit, and it is much less confidence inspiring than the M3 (or any car with a good suspension and more neutral balance). Engine, brakes, steering, suspension, all wonderful. If you are going to spend a lot of time on track, and willing to work with the car, you may find it very rewarding. But, don't assume you will be super fast in it. If you spend a lot street time with it, you will probably move from loving it, to toleration, to selling it. Good luck with your decision.

Words of wisdom I'm sure, however, a 6 GT3 is worlds different than a .2/7 GT3; galaxies different I should say.

[elh0102]

Originally Posted by devo

Words of wisdom I'm sure, however, a 6 GT3 is worlds different than a .2/7 GT3; galaxies different I should say.

Yep, for most people the new one is the better car. It's faster, a bit easier to learn, and has some electronic aids that some find helpful. I'm not sure it's any more fun. But I guess the discussion was the new GT3 from an M3, a comparison that always puzzles me a bit. They are both great cars, but one is a sports sedan, and the other a rather hard-focused sports car. Hard to compare.

[PKE90]

Originally Posted by elh0102

I haven't read all this thread, but I'll mention my experience as a 6 GT3 owner for about a year, and now preparing to sell it and get a new M3. Before the GT3, I had two E46 M3s, a C6 ZO6, 997S, Cayman S, and did a lot of track time with all of them. My track time is now very limited, which is the main reason I'm selling the GT3. They are wonderful cars, and the 997 is a better dual purpose or street car than mine. Most people are surprised that their lap time is not very impressive at first with the GT3. Like all 911 platform cars, it requires considerable dedication to learn to drive it near the limit, and it is much less confidence inspiring than the M3 (or any car with a good suspension and more neutral balance). Engine, brakes, steering, suspension, all wonderful. If you are going to spend a lot of time on track, and willing to work with the car, you may find it very rewarding. But, don't assume you will be super fast in it. If you spend a lot street time with it, you will probably move from loving it, to toleration, to selling it. Good luck with your decision.

This is a well thought out post. I know the OP is talking 997 GT3 and I am a 996 GT3 owner as well..indeed one who hopes to own a E90 M3 as a DD soon. I have driven several 7.1's and I agree it is more refined than the 6. Not much faster though and I am biased towards the 6's rawer feel. But to the OP's question, I would shy away from any GT3 as a DD. I barely drove it on the street, indeed I put a full cage in it now and trailer it. This post is absolutely accurate about having to be patient before your 3 will allow you to become one with it. I traded up from a base 996 and after my first track day with the 3 I was nearly in tears thinking I had made a costly mistake. I was so intimidated by the car, slower, and was convinced I would never be good enough for it. It took two full years and now I can dance with her at will. So be warned that a 3 will test your abilities and when you catch up to her, wow, you will know that you are an excellent driver for certain.

I will say though that after several Audi's, BMW's, and Porsche's, this 3 is the first car that I have kept for longer than a few years. It is simply unique. The sound, the razor sharp responses, the noises, the aggressive character...just simply amazing. I recently had my first chance to drive an M3 and given that I was practically conceived in the back seat of a BMW (a 2002), I knew of course that I would love it...as a DD. I can't quite imagine wanting to take it on the track because it just can't compare to the 3 (weight being the main thing). But for the street, I think the M3 is way better and the proper P-Car comparison would be the C2S. I for one, can't wait, to park a 2011 M3 next to my 3 and just sit there knowing that I own the two best automobiles the world has to offer.

[330CIZHP]

997.2 GT3 >>>>>> ever other GT3


997.2 GT3 by and large! No comparisons. GT3 RS is even more better than any other RS in the past since it stretched the gap between a regular GT3 and RS more than any other generation.

I would suggest if you want a GT3, get the 997.2.

[Montoya]

Interesting perspectives...

I would suggest if you want a GT3, get the 997.2.

Based on everything I've read and seen posted, I would agree, although looking at old reviews of the 997.1 GT3, I get tempted, especially with the used car difference around $30K.

[330CIZHP]

Found a great new video on 997.2 GT3.

A few years ago, everyone used to laugh and worship the turbo when I used to advocate the GT3. Now with the huge praises GT3 has been earning in the last couple of years, GT3 is rapidly establishing itself as the best 911 out there. Period.

Originally Posted by Montoya

Interesting perspectives...



Based on everything I've read and seen posted, I would agree, although looking at old reviews of the 997.1 GT3, I get tempted, especially with the used car difference around $30K.

[HBspeed]

Some great insights on the gt3 here. I also am somewhat obsessed with the gt3. As others have stated it is extremely high performing and can be quite unforgiving for a newcomer. While I have only driven a 6 gt3 and not on the track, I would feel a little over classed if I had just bought one and started from there for tracking. Personally I don't think I'm ready to utilize a gt3 as it is meant to be used. Being young and willing to compromise I would purchase one just for street use, but I don't think that is something most could live with. Instead I recently bought a 1975 911 already gutted and caged for a small fraction of the cost, that way I can learn to drive a 911 but at a more affordable and approachable starting point. This way once I finally buy a gt3 or whatever hardcore modern 911, I will know what I'm getting myself into.

[devo]

As an overall package, the .2 is so much more car than the .1 GT3. The added power, much improved torque, brake feel and power, sucked to the road feeling; without that light front end feeling, refined ride, sound, looks (subjective, but I don't t think I get much arguement here.), etc...

Porsche made so many advances to this car that if it didn't look like a 997 you'd believe it was an entirely new model.

If some can DD a GTR they can DD a .2 GT3 for sure.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by devo

As an overall package, the .2 is so much more car than the .1 GT3. The added power, much improved torque, brake feel and power, sucked to the road feeling; without that light front end feeling, refined ride, sound, looks (subjective, but I don't t think I get much arguement here.), etc...

Porsche made so many advances to this car that if it didn't look like a 997 you'd believe it was an entirely new model.

If some can DD a GTR they can DD a .2 GT3 for sure.

I'm glad to see you're loving it. I reordered one and will probably dump my GT-R.

Evo has a nice GT3 RS versus 458 comparison.

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[devo]

That's funny, I just watched that vid elsewhere.

Good to hear about the GT3. When will you get one?

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by devo

Good to hear. When will you get one?

Not for 9 months. So you honestly feel its a good DD? I mean that relative to the GTR because that's what it will replace. My dealer was trying dissuade from buying the GT3 and was pressing me to step into a new turbo. I told him I wanted something a little more raw and would hold on a Turbo until Porsche introduces the 998. I already have two twin turbos (my GTR and X6M) and would like another NA sports car.
Note: this will be my first 911.

[Montoya]

OMFG- This car sounds f***ing awesome- hang until the end for some sweet music!:


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[330CIZHP]

Most likely, because dealerships have Turbo 997 in stock usually while the GT3 has to be special ordered so the dealer was trying to sell the existing stock. Not to mention, the turbo costs more than a GT3.

I have seen several 997.1 turbo owners trade it in for a 997.2 GT3 and they could not be happier with their decision (one is on this board as well).

Originally Posted by 997GT3

Not for 9 months. So you honestly feel its a good DD? I mean that relative to the GTR because that's what it will replace. My dealer was trying dissuade from buying the GT3 and was pressing me to step into a new turbo. I told him I wanted something a little more raw and would hold on a Turbo until Porsche introduces the 998. I already have two twin turbos (my GTR and X6M) and would like another NA sports car.
Note: this will be my first 911.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Most likely, because dealerships have Turbo 997 in stock usually while the GT3 has to be special ordered so the dealer was trying to sell the existing stock. Not to mention, the turbo costs more than a GT3.

I have seen several 997.1 turbo owners trade it in for a 997.2 GT3 and they could not be happier with their decision (one is on this board as well).

Yeah that's probably the reason. It annoys me because I'm a really good customer (5 cars in 5 years).

[armorrig]

Originally Posted by Montoya

OMFG- This car sounds f***ing awesome- hang until the end for some sweet music!:


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"Weekend trips to Target"

GT3 a freakin sweet car

[elh0102]

Originally Posted by HBspeed

Some great insights on the gt3 here. I also am somewhat obsessed with the gt3. As others have stated it is extremely high performing and can be quite unforgiving for a newcomer. While I have only driven a 6 gt3 and not on the track, I would feel a little over classed if I had just bought one and started from there for tracking. Personally I don't think I'm ready to utilize a gt3 as it is meant to be used. Being young and willing to compromise I would purchase one just for street use, but I don't think that is something most could live with. Instead I recently bought a 1975 911 already gutted and caged for a small fraction of the cost, that way I can learn to drive a 911 but at a more affordable and approachable starting point. This way once I finally buy a gt3 or whatever hardcore modern 911, I will know what I'm getting myself into.

Probably a smart strategy. The whole 911 thing remains an enigma for me. I've owned two, a 997S, and the 6 GT3 I currently have on the market for sale. They are indeed fascinating cars. Porsche has done a marvelous job with a chassis layout that, at first, no one gave a chance. It seems, a compelling part of ownership satisfaction with the car, is the challenge of mastering or, at least, learning to co-exist with its idiosyncrasies. I finally had to face the reality of my personal relationship with it. Given limited track time, I simply am not, and probably never will be very good with it. Fortunately, I could not afford a 7 series GT3, so my experiment with the car, although costly, will not be disastrous. And, someone will get a very nice 6 GT3, a car that seems to be gaining a bit of cult status. I wish the very best to you and others who pursue the GT3. It is a very satisfying car when you do things right. I just don't seem to do things right enough, often enough.

[adc]

The main reason that I have avoided 911 Porsches so far is because I can only do limited track events each year, so there is basically not enough time to learn them and become good with them.

And if you don't, the consequences can be dire. By comparison, any M3 is so much more forgiving - like a good friend who goes with you and stays with you well over the limit, so you can go back home and tell everybody what a great save you had.


I just had a track day at Summit Point (half of it was in the wet) and the M3 was outstanding. And any car that can do 140-150+ mph on the straights is probably too fast to track without a rollcage anyway.

[PKE90]

Originally Posted by devo

Words of wisdom I'm sure, however, a 6 GT3 is worlds different than a .2/7 GT3; galaxies different I should say.

Worlds, galaxies? Can't agree. Have you driven all three extensively on the road and track? If so, I defer to you. If not, I'd suggest a couple of planets different but no more. Porsche is a master at incremental gains on a 45 year+ unchanged fundamental design. I recently swapped with a friend who has a 84 930 with a 3.6L (~300hp) engine at Monticello. After we did a couple of laps, he in my 6 GT3, me in his 84, we were amazed at how similar the cars drove. Of course the 20 year more advanced car was better but you'd be amazed at the nuances. Haven't driven a 7.2 GT3 but I have driven the 7.1 on the track and street. It was just that...incrementally better in all facets than my 6 GT3 but not far removed. Much better looking though, no doubt.

Here's a couple data points (Nuerburgring lap times per Sport Auto magazine of Germany):

- 996 GT3: 7min 54sec
- 996 GT3 RS: 7:47
- 997.1 GT3: 7:48
- 997.1 GT3 RS: 7:48 (why Porsche got serious with the the 997.2 RS)
- 997.2 GT3: 7:40
- 997.2 GT3 RS: 7:33 (Carrera GT: 7:32; 997.1 GT2: 7:33)

So between the 996 GT3 and the 997.2 GT3 lie 14 seconds - a ton for a professional in a race, no doubt, but expressed in percent it is only 3% different...not meaningful for us amateurs.

I don't have the E92 M3's numbers in front of me but I think it was a tick above 8m, somewhere around 8:05 I think.

[330CIZHP]

Officially 7:42 for the 997.1 GT3 not 7:48.

At any rate, I take the Nurburgring lap time comparisons with a grain of salt simply because the surface favors a certain type of suspension (which is why 997.1 GT3 RS was not faster than GT3, but on other race tracks it was much faster).

Although, officially 997.1 Turbo lapped 7:38 as opposed to 7:42 on the GT3 both driven by Walter Rohrl himself. However, Walter admitted the GT3 could lap faster than the Turbo on completely dry surface.

Just saying. It does not mean I believe the 997 was in a different league than the 996. It was just a natural evolution of the older model. Better, faster and more advanced.

Originally Posted by PKE90

Worlds, galaxies? Can't agree. Have you driven all three extensively on the road and track? If so, I defer to you. If not, I'd suggest a couple of planets different but no more. Porsche is a master at incremental gains on a 45 year+ unchanged fundamental design. I recently swapped with a friend who has a 84 930 with a 3.6L (~300hp) engine at Monticello. After we did a couple of laps, he in my 6 GT3, me in his 84, we were amazed at how similar the cars drove. Of course the 20 year more advanced car was better but you'd be amazed at the nuances. Haven't driven a 7.2 GT3 but I have driven the 7.1 on the track and street. It was just that...incrementally better in all facets than my 6 GT3 but not far removed. Much better looking though, no doubt.

Here's a couple data points (Nuerburgring lap times per Sport Auto magazine of Germany):

- 996 GT3: 7min 54sec
- 996 GT3 RS: 7:47
- 997.1 GT3: 7:48
- 997.1 GT3 RS: 7:48 (why Porsche got serious with the the 997.2 RS)
- 997.2 GT3: 7:40
- 997.2 GT3 RS: 7:33 (Carrera GT: 7:32; 997.1 GT2: 7:33)

So between the 996 GT3 and the 997.2 GT3 lie 14 seconds - a ton for a professional in a race, no doubt, but expressed in percent it is only 3% different...not meaningful for us amateurs.

I don't have the E92 M3's numbers in front of me but I think it was a tick above 8m, somewhere around 8:05 I think.

[Dartanium]

Another question, would a 997.2 GT3 RS be an acceptable weekend car just as much as a regular GT3?