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08-19-2008, 06:24 PM | #67 |
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Not sure if this is in part direct at me, but if you re-read my post, you'll see that I never implied rigging of any kind. Just uncontrolled test conditions that can affect the outcome.
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08-19-2008, 08:01 PM | #69 |
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LOLOLOLOLOL!
I think that is my favorite smilie. I just had to use it.
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08-19-2008, 08:04 PM | #70 | |
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Huh?? No not at all....just laughing at Footie's issue diversion and restatement of unsubstantiated allegations proffered as fact. Decomposing Footie's "logic" is pretty fun.
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08-19-2008, 08:06 PM | #71 | |
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08-19-2008, 08:21 PM | #72 | |
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Secondly much of the discussion of technology and other such technically oriented threads is as much about automotive engineering as it is about who is the biggest tough guy with the fastest car. Some folks enjoy both aspects. Lastly when you understand some automotive systems in some level of detail for some folks it truly enhances the actual driving experience. The late Richard Feynman a brilliant Nobel Prize winning physicist told a story about how one fellow could name many birds as they walked around outdoors enjoying nature. Richard couldn't really care less. To him understanding some novel behaviors of the birds and knowing why they did so was much more satisfying. Much of this simply depends on ones background. Oh and last but not least... don't read what bores you |
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08-19-2008, 08:46 PM | #73 | ||
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I don't know what you're trying to do here, but once again, do you have anything that actually demonstrates your assertion? Anything? I personally don't actually give a damn about "defending" Audi, but Jesus, guy, if you're just spouting off because you don't like Audi, say so, and we'll call it a day and move on. Bruce |
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08-19-2008, 09:03 PM | #74 | |
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As we've discussed previously, a system that can apportion power to 100% anywhere is preferable, but when you look around out there at all those available systems, Quattro comes up with decent marks. I know you're not taking any particular position, but just thought I'd take a break from my discussion with the so far content-free guy. Bruce |
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08-19-2008, 09:09 PM | #75 | ||
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This is a popular opinion but BMW / SAE has a rating of 300 hp..... sure there can be games but as you well know the ECU can make adjustments..... Are you attributing all the RS4 kills to gearing? Quote:
Yes, I was off on the A6 4.2 weight, I was quoting a 2.8. I am not sure what you want as data and proof. RS4s losing? Personal experience my A6 4.2 felt dead after 150 kph? RS4s losing? The RS4 vs. M3 torque curves on the other thread? Where the torque to the wheels for the RS4 (420hp) is significantly lower than the M3 (414hp). Sure I don't like Audi because of their dogmatic use of Quattro and their inferior implementation of AWD.
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08-20-2008, 02:14 AM | #76 |
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TB,
As I thought, you side step the question and evidence I have provided with a statement like I am as dumb as a shoe........smart. Your dislike for Quattro and Audi has clouded your judgement to the point that pure logic bears no meaning. What I showed in those video comparisons between a street race and the M5Board race is how rigged the thing is, and the very fact that they charge decent money for those video is unacceptable. As swamp said the data he helped compile show that the RS4 is as quick. @Swamp, I have seen lots of data on the RS4 and to be perfectly honest with you the data here is a fair reflection of the average, yes the M3 is marginally quicker but this is to do with it's weight advantage and nothing to do with how much power the transmission is eating up. TB is a FANBOY plain and simple who prefers to put his fingers in his ears and sing to himself when the words Quattro and Audi are mention. P.S. I never want to turn this into a quattro vs rwd debate but as always TB starts the thing and I like to put him right even if he doesn't want to listen. |
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08-20-2008, 05:33 AM | #77 |
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No worries. I did post a few lines about how the m5board videos are entertaining, but sometimes yield strange outcomes most likely due to uncontrolled test conditions.
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08-20-2008, 01:24 PM | #79 | ||
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I've never seen a chassis dyno result on a 335 xi, but you can bet the results will be down compared to a rwd 335 - so you can also expect chassis dyno results to be down on the RS4 compared to the M3. After, all, you're transmitting power through three differentials instead of one, plus the attendant u-joints, cv joints, etc. Then you've got to add in the rolling resistance of the two additional tires on the dyno wheels. Look, guy, because of awd and the weight differential, you'd expect the RS4's quarter mile trap speeds to be down by between three and four percent, with the ET disparity closer due to the awd launch capabilities. Near as we can tell from the lists, that's where the cars fall. Bottom line, I'm not trying to say anything about which car is better, just that based on what I see in this string plus my own experience, Quattro is far from "horrible", and it certainly isn't particularly power hungry. Bruce PS - Since third gear in our A6 4.2 was good for about 110 mph, it certainly felt very strong to me at 150 kph, and in fact it was at 150 kph and above where our car began to pull on both of the 540s I happened to meet. PPS - HANS! WAKE UP! THIS IS IMPORTANT* STUFF! BLUCHER!! BLUCHER!! *(albeit inconsequential and anal enough to make you think the participants had to be potty trained at gunpoint) |
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08-20-2008, 01:43 PM | #80 | |||
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Sure I would expect the XI to be down on from the regular I. But what is not being addressed is the observed performance gaps of the RS4 and other old school Quattro systems. It is not weight as the significance of the other forces are much higher after say 70 mph. Also personally, I remember the A6 4.2 as being slow off the line, a happy 60 - 140 kph type of car and after a few high speed runs, the car was slow.
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08-20-2008, 03:03 PM | #81 |
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This latest video is famous the world over. I hope it is one of the true M5Board videos because I am about to take delivery of an M3 M-DCT (the quick one -(jk)) and the thought on knowing for certain that I will win everytime against an RS4 would be a nice thought.
The reality is that in the real world, on the street, I doubt this will be a true reflection and things will be much, much closer. I am not saying the M3 wouldn't likely win but it wouldn't be a whipping like we see here. P.S. Funny that, because that has always been my point on this subject. |
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08-20-2008, 04:03 PM | #82 |
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I'm won't comment on the relative losses comparing Quattro vs. BMW except that the 100% rear bias available on the BMW does help substantially. I think the point is that regardless of the design or manufacturer AWD systems produce a significant amount of loss. If you believe the particular dyno numbers in the OP the RS4 losses are 18% vs. 12% for the M3. This difference is consistent with numbers used in simulation (numbers thanks to you, with my tweaks) of 3% for axles and 1% for a diff (12+2x3+1 = 19). No matter how you slice it 6% is a lot and for cars in this power range it is ~ 25 hp. In lb, at 9 lb/hp, this is ~ 225 lb.
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08-20-2008, 08:14 PM | #83 | |||||
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Where have you been? Quote:
"Look, guy, because of awd and the weight differential, you'd expect the RS4's quarter mile trap speeds to be down by between three and four percent, with the ET disparity closer due to the awd launch capabilities. Near as we can tell from the lists, that's where the cars fall." Calling it to within about 1% is pretty specific, doncha think? Quote:
That's not what we're primarily addressing here, though. It's the classic quarter mile, easily addressable through a number of tools and rules of thumb. In that venue, the Audi typically loses to the M3 by just about what you'd expect. Sometimes less, not often more. Quote:
Bruce Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 08-20-2008 at 08:46 PM.. |
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08-20-2008, 08:40 PM | #84 | ||
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08-20-2008, 08:57 PM | #85 | |
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I am trying to turn over a new leaf. Since we are now on 335s and have dispensed with the Audi conversation..... There is a popular rumor on the internet that 335s and GTRs are underrated. There is also a wide variance between the E/T and Trapsepeed methods. We have no way to prove anything unless we had an engine dyno. Another observation that you can stew about....a stock E46 M3 is faster than a stock 335i at sea level. Enjoy 333 vs. 300 hp
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08-21-2008, 12:13 AM | #86 | |
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Don't figure. Not the huge pulling away we see in the M5Board videos and this M5 is kicking out 525hp. If it can't walk the RS4 in such a fashion as we see in thise videos than what chance has an M3 got with over a 100hp less. Surely this Porsche should have reeled it in based on the evidence in M5Board videos. Does, anyone else like a pattern forming here. |
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08-21-2008, 08:43 AM | #87 | |||
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GT-R? The jury is still out on that one as far as I'm concerned. We're seen trap speeds from 111 mph to about 120 mph on U.S.- spec models, so we'll see more as more road test data becomes available. Quote:
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08-21-2008, 09:15 AM | #88 | |||
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This is why I proffered the video of a 333 hp E46 M3 vs a stock 300 hp 335i, many variables are removed and it is real world. A 300 hp car is behaving as it should. Against the 300 hp A6, the 300 hp is significantly faster across the board and if it is not the motor, what else is there? Quote:
111 mph to 115 mph is about right for a 480 hp car.
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