From M3 to GT3 - Downsides and Upsides

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by sammyrusso

id bet for the quickest 0-60/ 1/4mile ect...you would take it to redline...but maybe someones got a dyno graph and you can look how the power drops after peak hp is hit

Shifting the car at redline will get you the best performance despite the shape of the power curve. Having an engine that exhibits a peak power some rpms well before redline is not a detriment. All it means is that the internals are rated beyond how efficiently the intake and exhaust can let the engine breathe. If the M3 could rev to 8800 or so it would be a faster car if shifted at its new redine and the power curve would show the same post power peak decline (under the assumption that its peak torque was identical). The M3 just happens to be able to breathe wonderfully well and basically right up the redline.

I used to think the M3 style power curve was superior but after much more examination and physics based performance simulation I realized it is not really a performance advantge. It definitely says something about the cars engine technically and you can feel the difference but it is not a performance issue.

[TheKosherStogie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Shifting the car at redline will get you the best performance despite the shape of the power curve. Having an engine that exhibits a peak power some rpms well before redline is not a detriment. All it means is that the internals are rated beyond how efficiently the intake and exhaust can let the engine breathe. If the M3 could rev to 8800 or so it would be a faster car if shifted at its new redine and the power curve would show the same post power peak decline (under the assumption that its peak torque was identical). The M3 just happens to be able to breathe wonderfully well and basically right up the redline.

I used to think the M3 style power curve was superior but after much more examination and physics based performance simulation I realized it is not really a performance advantge. It definitely says something about the cars engine technically and you can feel the difference but it is not a performance issue.

agreed

[JC919]

Originally Posted by devo

The .2 GT3/RS shares the same block and true dry sump oiling system. The difference(s) being the .2 more of displacement; an increase in the bore and other minor refinements. Otherwise it is the same bulletproof engine as the .1. The .2 turbo and Carreras have the new DI engine with an "integrated dry sump". The next GT3/RS will very likely follow suit.

I mean't all 997 GT3s, but have been so fixated on the 7.1 lately that I put that by accident

[devo]

Originally Posted by Montoya

Agreed, most mods never get their money on resale. Better to sell seperately and return to stock. A stroker motor is a different deal entirely. You will get some more over stock, but very difficult to sell. I like to limit my mods to simple inexpensive stuff and save the money for the next car...

I do plan on some track days, but still need the comfort for some spirited street driving and road trips. It looks like the .2 GT3 could be that car.

I just got back from a round trip from Upstate NY to Mineola NY and back so that my .2/3 could get a clear bra by the pros at Detailing Dynamics.

I have to say that the car was a pleasure to drive the 600 miles round trip. My girl friend was with me and never complained of a rough ride.

Oh yeah, DD did a flawless job with the clear bra. Their work is incredible! A Lambo Murcielago as well as three F430s were just some of the cars there.

[Montoya]

Originally Posted by devo

I just got back from a round trip from Upstate NY to Mineola NY and back so that my .2/3 could get a clear bra by the pros at Detailing Dynamics.

I have to say that the car was a pleasure to drive the 600 miles round trip. My girl friend was with me and never complained of a rough ride.

Oh yeah, DD did a flawless job with the clear bra. Their work is incredible! A Lambo Murcielago as well as three F430s were just some of the cars there.

Nice! Post us some pics, what color? Did you get the lift option and dynamic engine mounts? A lot of the .2 GT3's are missing those, not sure why.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Montoya

Nice! Post us some pics, what color? Did you get the lift option and dynamic engine mounts? A lot of the .2 GT3's are missing those, not sure why.

DEM yes, lift no.

I don't have the need for the lift. So far, so good (800 miles). $3,500 is too much, and it adds 16 lbs. I don't want my lap times to the grocery store to go up!

The reason DEM is missing from a lot of cars is mostly because the option was not available on the first 250-300 or so, cars. Some dealers also missed the important point on that one, choosing some ridiculously over priced trim piece instead. So, of the < 500 .2 GT3s, less than half have the mounts according to my math. There very well may be some 2011s, but there won't be many, so DEM cars will weather the residual storm a little bit better as time passes.

I did post some early delivery pics back in Dec/Jan under the general sports cars section below.

You need to get one, this car is stupid fun!

[Montoya]

Originally Posted by devo

You need to get one, this car is stupid fun!

Yes, that's it- I need it, yes, yes I need it to ummmm get to work on time! LOL

Thanks for the clarification on those options, I thought I had heard there was limited availability for the DEM.

Enjoy the car, it must awesome!

[FStop7]

The only thing about the GT3 that makes it tough as a daily driver is the weight of the clutch. The pedal effort is really high. It's easy to modulate and stuff, but your left leg is going to end up bigger than your right.

Other than that it's a great daily driver.

[JMD0977]

I went from a E93 M3, which had a 4.6 stroker motor, to a 2010 GT3 and could not be happier. I have different cars, that would technically be better DD, but I love to drive the GT3 most of the week. I take the long way to drive to my office.

As far as the power and redline comments, here are my before and after, same day dynos, of when I installed the Akrapovic race exhaust system for the GT3. Baseline was stock; the other one is with exhaust alone, stock software and filter: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=376158


It makes power all the way to the redline. These dynos were done with a little fan and decklid closed.

Today, I just installed the evoms software today and BMC filter. No dynos of that yet. I'll do a dyno in a week with the new mods, and then the day after, 20 dyno pulls or so will be done for a custom tune, through evoms.

[JMD0977]

SAE DynoJet results (Same day before and after)




STD DynoJet results (Same day before and after)

[Simon@RENNSpec]

No offense to the M3 community, but I've driven and owned both cars, no comparison the GT3 indeed is a better car.

[devo]

Originally Posted by FStop7

The only thing about the GT3 that makes it tough as a daily driver is the weight of the clutch. The pedal effort is really high. It's easy to modulate and stuff, but your left leg is going to end up bigger than your right.

Other than that it's a great daily driver.

Different strokes for different folks.

I will say that if no one ever mentioned how stiff they believed the clutch was, I'd never give it a thought. Most other cars I've driven feel too soft; with exception to my '02 E46 M3. I prefer the clutch in a GT3. It's by no means too hard, imo.

[Montoya]

Originally Posted by JMD0977

I went from a E93 M3, which had a 4.6 stroker motor, to a 2010 GT3 and could not be happier. I have different cars, that would technically be better DD, but I love to drive the GT3 most of the week. I take the long way to drive to my office.

As far as the power and redline comments, here are my before and after, same day dynos, of when I installed the Akrapovic race exhaust system for the GT3. Baseline was stock; the other one is with exhaust alone, stock software and filter: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=376158


It makes power all the way to the redline. These dynos were done with a little fan and decklid closed.

Today, I just installed the evoms software today and BMC filter. No dynos of that yet. I'll do a dyno in a week with the new mods, and then the day after, 20 dyno pulls or so will be done for a custom tune, through evoms.

Wow, those dyno runs are amazing. So corrected for drivetrain losses we are looking at over 475 HP??? Is Porsche being conservative or am I assuming too much for losses?

[JMD0977]

Originally Posted by Montoya

Wow, those dyno runs are amazing. So corrected for drivetrain losses we are looking at over 475 HP??? Is Porsche being conservative or am I assuming too much for losses?

Porsche states that the drivetrain lose for 2010 GT3 is 8%-10%......
Whether, true or not, I just care about SAE WHP

The car had previously been dyno'ed at a different dynojet in January (stock), and it put down 414 WHP STD corrected/ 403 WHP SAE corrected, so neither dyno is reading "high". The numbers are very real. Im very, very impressed with this car. Tomorrow, Im going to a 1 mile high speed event in Miami-Collier Cobb airport. Info @ www.exoticsrally.com in the events section. Just curious, since my stroker M3 convertible did 167.2 mph last year. This GT3 is putting down 25 whp less than my E93 M3 4.6 stroker (435 whp SAE on a dynojet), but weights 1000 lbs+ less, and has better aerodynamics....

This 2010 GT3, in stock form, was already faster than the E93 stroker M3, now its not stock anymore...

[TheKosherStogie]

GT3...im on the way

[Montoya]

Originally Posted by JMD0977

Porsche states that the drivetrain lose for 2010 GT3 is 8%-10%......
Whether, true or not, I just care about SAE WHP

8% puts you right at 435 stock and 446 with the exhaust. Pretty nice!

Good luck at the event tomorrow, post the results!

[JMD0977]

Originally Posted by Montoya

8% puts you right at 435 stock and 446 with the exhaust. Pretty nice!

Good luck at the event tomorrow, post the results!

Many people say the drivetrain loss is really 12%-15%....



I just got back, and got sun burnt

The best results for my 2010 GT3, that I know of, were:
1/4 mile: 11.307 seconds @ 118.479 mph
1 mile: 29.345 seconds @ 169.773 mph
(same run, I think I could have done a better launch and gotten it down to 11.1-11.0)

The are 3-4 runs of my car, that I dont have the results of, but will be emailed to me.

Keep in mind, that these results were obtained with pirelli corsa street/track R compound tires (not drag radials), the road surface was the same as any road (it was not a preped track or anything), 93 gas, 91 degree weather, with some strong winds. Mods are: Akrapovic race exhaust, BMC intake filter, and preleminary Evoms software (still need to do 30-40 dyno pulls next saturday, and really cutomize the tune). Very pleased with the results, so far.

My friend's LP-560's best run was:
1/4 mile: 11.066 seconds @ 130.736 mph
1 mile: 28.584 seconds @ 174.663 mph

I'll open a separate thread with slips, pics and vids later. I got to wash the car now.....

[TheKosherStogie]

nice!! great times

[a burrito]

I would say if you never track you car then the drastic change to a GT3 may not be worth it. I can understand by the looks how a GT3 can be everyones "dream car" but realistically a GT3 can be too rough for many people. It's not really like the difference between a 3 series to a M3 where both cars are DD-able; a 997 non-s/s is far more raw/rougher than a M3 to start.

Upsides (M3)
DD-able

Downsides (997.1-.2 3)
Not DD-able

[ersin]

Originally Posted by FStop7

The only thing about the GT3 that makes it tough as a daily driver is the weight of the clutch. The pedal effort is really high. It's easy to modulate and stuff, but your left leg is going to end up bigger than your right.

Other than that it's a great daily driver.

That means your not pushing on the throttle enough.


Cheers.

[Montoya]

Originally Posted by a burrito

I would say if you never track you car then the drastic change to a GT3 may not be worth it. I can understand by the looks how a GT3 can be everyones "dream car" but realistically a GT3 can be too rough for many people. It's not really like the difference between a 3 series to a M3 where both cars are DD-able; a 997 non-s/s is far more raw/rougher than a M3 to start.

Upsides (M3)
DD-able

Downsides (997.1-.2 3)
Not DD-able

So your 996 is a DD? Just curious how you feel about 997 in S of 4S as a DD...

[Montoya]

Originally Posted by JMD0977

Many people say the drivetrain loss is really 12%-15%....



I just got back, and got sun burnt

The best results for my 2010 GT3, that I know of, were:
1/4 mile: 11.307 seconds @ 118.479 mph
1 mile: 29.345 seconds @ 169.773 mph
(same run, I think I could have done a better launch and gotten it down to 11.1-11.0)

The are 3-4 runs of my car, that I dont have the results of, but will be emailed to me.

Keep in mind, that these results were obtained with pirelli corsa street/track R compound tires (not drag radials), the road surface was the same as any road (it was not a preped track or anything), 93 gas, 91 degree weather, with some strong winds. Mods are: Akrapovic race exhaust, BMC intake filter, and preleminary Evoms software (still need to do 30-40 dyno pulls next saturday, and really cutomize the tune). Very pleased with the results, so far.

My friend's LP-560's best run was:
1/4 mile: 11.066 seconds @ 130.736 mph
1 mile: 28.584 seconds @ 174.663 mph

I'll open a separate thread with slips, pics and vids later. I got to wash the car now.....

Pretty impressive!