The middle-aged Dad Dilemma

[pbonsalb]

I agree that the majority of M car owners never come close to exploring the potential of their cars. I agree most buy them for the status. And that is OK.

I like the performance of the M cars, though so can’t say I have explored all aspects of the potential. I have rarely tracked, for example. To me, the M cars are a better starting point for modding. I could start with a lower model and end up in pretty much the same place, but it is a lot of work to swap engines, transmissions, differentials, suspension parts, brakes, etc.

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I agree that the majority of M car owners never come close to exploring the potential of their cars. I agree most buy them for the status. And that is OK.

I like the performance of the M cars, though so can’t say I have explored all aspects of the potential. I have rarely tracked, for example. To me, the M cars are a better starting point for modding. I could start with a lower model and end up in pretty much the same place, but it is a lot of work to swap engines, transmissions, differentials, suspension parts, brakes, etc.

Yeah, definitely – I'm certainly not telling anyone what to buy, nor that their choice is wrong. It's your car and you should buy what you want for whatever reason you want, "logical" or not. I'm just saying that for someone who's mostly commuting and/or doing the normal day-to-day stuff, the difference between a "Full M" and an "M Lite" isn't going to be all that stark, so I'd take that into account when making my decision. Is the extra expense worth it? If you feel that it is – for any damn reason you like – then by all means go for it. I'm happy if you're happy, lol.

I just get tired of the "if it isn't a Full M it might as well be a Camry" snobbery. It's exhausting.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

I daily manuals. Got home this morning after a call shift over an hour in bumper to bumper Charleston traffic thanks to an accident. The manual gave me something to pay attention to, kept me engaged with the drivetrain and entertained. Over the years it has definitely kept me from rear ending folks when I might otherwise have been inattentive. I routinely heel toe, rev match everything and probably annoy other drivers quite a bit. But I'm having more fun while they look completely dead inside.

Autos are boring.

I will say my left leg is a little bigger than my right. Heavy clutches take their toll. I dread the day my left knee won't let me 3 pedal it.

Get the M car OP and get the manual! BMW clutches are very approachable for daily driving.

If I may... That day will NEVER happen. Just get a knee replacement. It's outpatient surgery now. I had my left knee replaced in 2012 before I turned 50, an eventual outcome of a misspent youth riding dirtbikes over aggressively. I was back driving my 80-mile one-way daily commute in my manual E90 the 3rd week after surgery. My ortho doctor said actuating a clutch in traffic (and I drove in heavy N. Virginia traffic) was excellent physical therapy to aid a faster recovery.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

Yeah, definitely – I'm certainly not telling anyone what to buy, nor that their choice is wrong. It's your car and you should buy what you want for whatever reason you want, "logical" or not. I'm just saying that for someone who's mostly commuting and/or doing the normal day-to-day stuff, the difference between a "Full M" and an "M Lite" isn't going to be all that stark, so I'd take that into account when making my decision. Is the extra expense worth it? If you feel that it is – for any damn reason you like – then by all means go for it. I'm happy if you're happy, lol.

I just get tired of the "if it isn't a Full M it might as well be a Camry" snobbery. It's exhausting.

100% agree!

But the problem is BMW (and nearly every other manufacturer) has dropped the manual transmission from their lineup of regular non-M cars. As a BMW owner who came on board in 1988 when the E30 M3 had just hit the market (and no one wanted them), I was a BMW enthusiast before the M-Division was really a thing. In-the-day, the street-version of the E30 M3 was not that big of a leap from the E30 325is in performance and the market realized it and wasn't willing to pay the $10K premium for it. One can no longer just buy a decent manual-transmission sport sedan for a reasonable price. I'm not willing to fork over a mortgage payment to have a manual transmission. Who gives a shit about a $78K, 470 HP M3 when 200 HP of it really isn't necessary for highly aggressive street driving.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I agree that the majority of M car owners never come close to exploring the potential of their cars. I agree most buy them for the status. And that is OK.

I like the performance of the M cars, though so can’t say I have explored all aspects of the potential. I have rarely tracked, for example. To me, the M cars are a better starting point for modding. I could start with a lower model and end up in pretty much the same place, but it is a lot of work to swap engines, transmissions, differentials, suspension parts, brakes, etc.

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

I mean, it's pretty hilarious how some M people get all worked up, defensive and so on, trying to convince someone that only one particular type of car should ever have The Lord's Blessed Badge, and that all others are heretics against the Holy M. But here we are.

Listen: I have both, so I don't have any axe to grind on the whole issue. But there are definitely times and situations where an "M Lite" makes more sense than a full-on M. Some people are going to use the car as a commuter 95% of the time and will virtually never see the difference, other when they gaze upon thy holiest of badges. Believe it or not, the number of people that will ever track a car, M or not, is a rounding error, and the number of people who will ever go run the Tail of the Dragon is vanishingly few.

And while I'd agree that an M3 beats an M340i by every performance metric, those are not the only metrics that exist. For the vast, vast majority of people on this Earth money is a finite resource, and we have to allocate where we put it. For a car that's never going to be pushed, I'd argue that it makes a whole lot more sense to go with the Diet M, which will handily meet any excitement you want 98% of the time, rather than paying the significant premium that an M car represents, in purchase price, insurance, and upkeep. I mean if you just have money to burn or can raid Mommy and Daddy's trust fund whenever you like, then sure, get that M even if you only go to the grocery store twice a week and never break 30mph, if that's what makes you happy.

To be clear: I couldn't care less what car you buy, and I'm not telling anyone they're right or wrong for buying whatever the hell they want. I don't really care if you buy a Schwinn and tape M badges to it. But to say that "at least 80% people buy m lite car because they dont have/cant find financial reasoning for M 3/4/5" is equal parts reductive and arrogant. Lots of people with sufficient means to buy an $80k car don't because it doesn't fit their needs, use-case, doesn't make financial sense, or they would prefer to put that particular wood behind a different arrow. Maybe not over-buying when they don't need to is why they can buy an $80k car, no?

Honestly, this whole attitude is why a lot of people find BMW enthusiasts to be completely insufferable.

In 2020 when the Ford Bronco was revealed, it wasn't even on my radar; I only found out about the Bronco from this subforum - LOL. With the E90 very long in the tooth and me coming up on retirement, I wanted one, last, new vehicle that I didn't need to wrench on constantly so I could wrench on the ones I have in the fleet (all are long in the tooth) - now just down to two Bimmers. Queue the Ford jokes...

So, I reserved a Bronco in September 2020 and finally took delivery in August 2022 after it was built in March of 2022 (thanks COVID). The near least-expensive trim, a 3-pedal Black Diamond with just one option, the Advanced Track auto transfercase. Do I need all the capabilities of the Bronco? No; I'll not rock crawl it ever, nor go bashing through the woods bouncing off trees and such. I will use it to run the local fire roads and get out of my property when the river floods. And mostly, pull the top for the summertime and drive it on nice days. Is it sort of the topic of M3 overkill? Yeah probably, but it was just $39K in 2022.

Could I have bought an M3 at the time? Sure, but I saved $40K, got the manual in a new vehicle I wanted, and now have the funds to pick up a new BMW K1600B for 20% below MSRP. 160 HP naturally aspirated BMW inline 6, 6-speed manual transmission, and 4.7 pounds per horsepower vs. the M3 at 8.1 pounds per horsepower.

Guess what was the better move for the quiver, a single M3, or a Bronco and K1600B Beemer? LOL.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If I may... That day will NEVER happen. Just get a knee replacement. It's outpatient surgery now. I had my left knee replaced in 2012 before I turned 50, an eventual outcome of a misspent youth riding dirtbikes over aggressively. I was back driving my 80-mile one-way daily commute in my manual E90 the 3rd week after surgery. My ortho doctor said actuating a clutch in traffic (and I drove in heavy N. Virginia traffic) was excellent physical therapy to aid a faster recovery.

Oh that's the plan. But there's a good many things that can remove function of a leg beyond OA or meniscus damage. Cross your fingers for me.

[Janjohn]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Oh that's the plan. But there's a good many things that can remove function of a leg beyond OA or meniscus damage. Cross your fingers for me.

It’s still rather tough to shift if your right hand or arm is broken.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Oh that's the plan. But there's a good many things that can remove function of a leg beyond OA or meniscus damage. Cross your fingers for me.

Outside of being a tackle on a professional football team (with a running quarterback to boot), I doubt there isn't much else that can be done to a knee that I've not already done.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by thebmw

OP, life is short. Get what you want. Here's a picture from today. I daily drove my rear wheel drive, manual transmission M6 in the snow. Anyone who thinks that can't be done is a fool. Anything can be done if you plan, prepare, and execute.

Sick car, love it!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by thebmw

OP, life is short. Get what you want. Here's a picture from today. I daily drove my rear wheel drive, manual transmission M6 in the snow. Anyone who thinks that can't be done is a fool. Anything can be done if you plan, prepare, and execute.

For us older gents, we called that Tuesday...

On bias-ply tires to boot!

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

For us older gents, we called that Tuesday...

On bias-ply tires to boot!

For sure. I used to drive a manual '81 Honda Accord in the snow in Connecticut all the time, and it was only about 2,000 lbs. And as I recall, that was on A/S tires.

[Altamate]

Originally Posted by thebmw

OP, life is short. Get what you want. Here's a picture from today. I daily drove my rear wheel drive, manual transmission M6 in the snow. Anyone who thinks that can't be done is a fool. Anything can be done if you plan, prepare, and execute.

Sure, in the 70’s I drove a 75 Pontiac Trans Am manual transmission year round here in Alberta winter on all season radials of that era. The car could not climb the smallest slope if the conditions were against it,

But today I’ll take Xdrive every time.

[Henn28]

Originally Posted by thebmw

OP, life is short. Get what you want. Here's a picture from today. I daily drove my rear wheel drive, manual transmission M6 in the snow. Anyone who thinks that can't be done is a fool. Anything can be done if you plan, prepare, and execute.

Let’s face it tho, the LSD in these cars is super helpful in the slop too. When I grew up everyone was driving RWD, open diff cars in crappy weather because that’s all there was, unless you had a 4WD hub-locking truck. Never again. Sliding off the road in your K Car at some point or just stuck in the winter was an occasional fact of life 35 years ago.

AWD coming along was a huge improvement for most people and conditions, but emulating an LSD with ABS/DSC only gets you so far. My E53 project was still scary in really greasy conditions. The ABS would be hammering away on all 4 corners, while the car was sliding sideways towards a ditch. It’s a completely different vehicle with the Quaife rear ended I built. It still has 2 open diffs (center and front) but the ability of the Quaife to seemlessly and instantly split torque and find grip in the back without breaking traction is game changing.

I agree, get what you want. It’s been 20 years since I sold my E46 and I’m loving being back in a RWD. 6 spd monster. It gives me confidence too that it’s got a LSD and ABS/DSC.

[BlkGS]

Didn't read any of the replies. If your dream is an F80, I think it's a pretty dumb dream, but who cares it's your dream,.go get it. Worst case, you hate it and it's a financial nightmare and you learn from it.

Life is too short to fuck yourself on a car at this stage in life.

[SteVTEC]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

To be clear: I couldn't care less what car you buy, and I'm not telling anyone they're right or wrong for buying whatever the hell they want. I don't really care if you buy a Schwinn and tape M badges to it. But to say that "at least 80% people buy m lite car because they dont have/cant find financial reasoning for M 3/4/5" is equal parts reductive and arrogant. Lots of people with sufficient means to buy an $80k car don't because it doesn't fit their needs, use-case, doesn't make financial sense, or they would prefer to put that particular wood behind a different arrow. Maybe not over-buying when they don't need to is why they can buy an $80k car, no?

Honestly, this whole attitude is why a lot of people find BMW enthusiasts to be completely insufferable.

LOL nothing new here, and hardly unique to BMW forums either. There's always been people on car forums who will assume that anybody who isn't in the most expensive model is because they "can't afford it" or other BS, and I've always just laughed. Honda forums were no different 25 years ago with VTEC vs non-VTEC cars. Lol

Today I was in my new to me G01 X3 30i since I didn't let my son drive it to school (snow, but schools open), and some r-tard in an X5M went tearing through slower speed traffic in 28F weather on wet roads like an absolute lunatic. I ended up right behind them at the next light. That's pretty much the only way you can "enjoy" an M car where I live, by driving like a complete f-ing idiot. Pass. This is also why I perpetually dragged my feet on getting an F80 M3 for so long, because I just had no idea how I would ever enjoy it, until life situation changed quite drastically and ended up getting a Suburban instead.

Lots of travel and nice vacations. Italy, France, and Japan the past few years. Germany and Singapore next year. Going to Aruba again in the spring. Got some nice watches, and a beach house. But I'm rocking my newly acquired poverty spec CPO X3 today, so I must be poor.

If you really want to flex on people, try aircraft ownership. High-powered cars that you can't enjoy don't do it for me, personally.

[pbonsalb]

I agree the OP should buy his dream car rather than save $10k and settle for second choice. I bought my first M3 at 40, my second M3 at 45, and my M5 at 55.

Now I am 60 and retired and no longer feel the urge to go any further or newer. In the past 3 years, my wife and I have spent enough traveling to have bought a 992 Turbo. The travel experiences are far more rewarding. Right now, we are on our 9th trip to the African continent in less than 3 years and can say these trips have been life changing. I would not trade them for a GT3 or 911 Turbo. I also understand such experiences are harder and maybe impossible to have when you are in the middle of the grind with another decade ahead of you trying to make sure your kids are OK.

[Mavus]

I feel like many people even on this forum don’t understand engineering diff btw models. M cars are designed to diff criteria vs std models. Each one has a function. M cars have much higher torsional rigidity, higher grip, better brakes, wide body, better cooling, faster response etc but they are not as comfortable. If you enjoy driving on b roads, track, mountains etc M cars are just better more expensive tools. However, if I am driving 8hrs with a fam of 3-4 I will take 340, 540, 740/50 or one of x models. Also no x model should ever have M branding but that’s another topic lol. It all comes down to do you want it and how will you use it.

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by Mavus

Also no x model should ever have M branding but that’s another topic lol. It all comes down to do you want it and how will you use it.

Ok, so there shoudn't be any performance SUVs? No Macans, Cayenne Turbos, Urus, Grand Cherokee SRT8/Track hawks, etc.?

I'll go let my wife know the expert on the forum says she should remove the M branding from her X3M Competion.

[dcstep]

You're overthinking this. If you "need" an M3, you'll buy one now. So what if the kids are cramped in the back

[silvermanor]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Standard items include:
Factory LSD which hasn't been standard in a non-M BMW for decades.
Track capable brake package.
Sport suspension.

Lol the M division didn't touch this car. I'm not sure you know what an M car is.

[pbonsalb]

I don’t know whether the M Division has any involvement in M Sport parts, but the M340i does have LSD and a track capable brake package, and sport suspension.

There were some “real” M cars that used the turbo motors from the non-M cars, like the 2011 1M that used the N54 and the 2016 M2 that used the N55. Some question whether the S50 and S52 of the 1995-1999 USA M3 are really M engines and I agree.

[R N M]

As a current F80 YMB owner that owned a bunch of other BMWs - they are amazing cars and much better than the other options.

Just make sure that you get one well maintained and has proper ownership history.

Also buy a high quality car cover if it will outside.
Insurance will definitely be higher but worth it!