Big Wings: Helpful or hurtful? What's your opinion?

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Interesting! Can you remodel it with a 3/8" thick core? I wonder how much of an improvement that will yield. Increasing core thickness is the best way to improve stiffness to weight.

Actually, making the carbon piece is not hard. You can wet lay the carbon over the foam core against a sheet of melamine, lay peel ply, bleeder and then bag it. Pull vacuum until the initial cure. It won't be beautiful glossy carbon but its a damned splitter...who cares!

THe b!tch is trimming it. That sucks. You at least need a respirator and a diamond cut off wheel but the dust is really fine and it gets everywhere. I'd do it outside. The dust is also electrically conductive so it will destroy power tools if you aren't careful. You could theoretically very carefully and precisely pre-cut the carbon before wetting it out which would eliminate the trimming. You'll need some pricey shears to do the detail work. Easier said then done but might just need some light edge touchup with a flap disc or hand sand.

sure I can request my wife to do some simulation for us.

yeah making CF parts is quiet easy to be honest, but the average person wont really have the place to do it.. safely.. I've consumed enough CF dust from sanding and fumes from the chemicals that I'm just over it

my work shop just had epoxy all over the floor too.. but i also just never had enough space to store the molds.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

sure I can request my wife to do some simulation for us.

yeah making CF parts is quiet easy to be honest, but the average person wont really have the place to do it.. safely.. I've consumed enough CF dust from sanding and fumes from the chemicals that I'm just over it

my work shop just had epoxy all over the floor too.. but i also just never had enough space to store the molds.

That would be interesting.

I do CF trimming outside which sucks balls in the summer here in TX. I found some cheap suits that aren't white so I don't look like an overgrown oompa loompa. But suit, goggles, and respirator make it relatively safe. I don't get itchy. I do need to get a fullface respirator.

The mold storage is kicking my ass now. I just toss them in the attic and hope I don't need them until the winter.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Interesting! Can you remodel it with a 3/8" thick core? I wonder how much of an improvement that will yield. Increasing core thickness is the best way to improve stiffness to weight.

Actually, making the carbon piece is not hard. You can wet lay the carbon over the foam core against a sheet of melamine, lay peel ply, bleeder and then bag it. Pull vacuum until the initial cure. It won't be beautiful glossy carbon but its a damned splitter...who cares!

THe b!tch is trimming it. That sucks. You at least need a respirator and a diamond cut off wheel but the dust is really fine and it gets everywhere. I'd do it outside. The dust is also electrically conductive so it will destroy power tools if you aren't careful. You could theoretically very carefully and precisely pre-cut the carbon before wetting it out which would eliminate the trimming. You'll need some pricey shears to do the detail work. Easier said then done but might just need some light edge touchup with a flap disc or hand sand.

i live in SoCal, so its either hot or cold, and if its in between i still consider it good enough weather to wear a sweater lmao. My wife does not allow me to use our in home washer and dryer, so have to go do it my self at a laundro mat.

and my shop clothes have always been Carhartt stuff... heavy duty... sturdy... HOT AF To wear.. usually by the time noon hits, I'm trimming CF in my walter whites. I refused to do any work during the summer that's for sure.

but i do want to make a single CF Skin of my trunk, sometime this year or next year. since my chassis mount requires trimming the trunk to fit.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

That would be interesting.

I do CF trimming outside which sucks balls in the summer here in TX. I found some cheap suits that aren't white so I don't look like an overgrown oompa loompa. But suit, goggles, and respirator make it relatively safe. I don't get itchy. I do need to get a fullface respirator.

The mold storage is kicking my ass now. I just toss them in the attic and hope I don't need them until the winter.

i live in SoCal, so its either hot or cold, and if its in between i still consider it good enough weather to wear a sweater lmao. My wife does not allow me to use our in home washer and dryer, so have to go do it my self at a laundro mat.

and my shop clothes have always been Carhartt stuff... heavy duty... sturdy... HOT AF To wear.. usually by the time noon hits, I'm trimming CF in my walter whites. I refused to do any work during the summer that's for sure.

but i do want to make a single CF Skin of my trunk, sometime this year or next year. since my chassis mount requires trimming the trunk to fit.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

i live in SoCal, so its either hot or cold, and if its in between i still consider it good enough weather to wear a sweater lmao. My wife does not allow me to use our in home washer and dryer, so have to go do it my self at a laundro mat.

and my shop clothes have always been Carhartt stuff... heavy duty... sturdy... HOT AF To wear.. usually by the time noon hits, I'm trimming CF in my walter whites. I refused to do any work during the summer that's for sure.

but i do want to make a single CF Skin of my trunk, sometime this year or next year. since my chassis mount requires trimming the trunk to fit.

Btw my trunk mount has turned out pretty sturdy, esp paired with a fixed stop by the latch. Had it made on sendcutsend. Help yourself.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by kolosy

Btw my trunk mount has turned out pretty sturdy, esp paired with a fixed stop by the latch. Had it made on sendcutsend. Help yourself.

Thanks!

I was going to mount my wing uprights directly to the trunk hinge mounts

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

Thanks!

I was going to mount my wing uprights directly to the trunk hinge mounts

Yeah I was going to do the same but decided this was a cheaper option and if it didn’t work I’d still need that cf trunk lid lol.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

Thanks!

I was going to mount my wing uprights directly to the trunk hinge mounts

Any drawbacks to that? I’m considering the same thing. Surprised that it is not more common.

If I can hinge moun then I can make the trunk lid lighter.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Any drawbacks to that? I’m considering the same thing. Surprised that it is not more common.

If I can hinge moun then I can make the trunk lid lighter.

I mean … going to state the obvious — you can’t open the trunk anymore after you do that, that’s the primary one. (To clarify — you can’t use the hinge anymore, you can still use hood pins or whatever to make the lid removable)

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by kolosy

I mean … going to state the obvious — you can’t open the trunk anymore after you do that, that’s the primary one. (To clarify — you can’t use the hinge anymore, you can still use hood pins or whatever to make the lid removable)

...honestly I didn't even think of that.

Could just notch out the end of the trunk to clear the fasteners. Personally, I am planning to use aerocatch pins instead of the hinges.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

...honestly I didn't even think of that.

Could just notch out the end of the trunk to clear the fasteners. Personally, I am planning to use aerocatch pins instead of the hinges.

Haha me neither until I started cad modeling my own hinge mount. Issue isn’t just the notch, it’s also the fact that the hinge bolts aren’t coplanar, and the way the hinge folds it overlaps itself. I don’t think you can sandwich something in there and still have it operate the original way.

I think turbo_joe has the notched trunk and hood pins setup.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by kolosy

I mean … going to state the obvious — you can’t open the trunk anymore after you do that, that’s the primary one. (To clarify — you can’t use the hinge anymore, you can still use hood pins or whatever to make the lid removable)

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Any drawbacks to that? I’m considering the same thing. Surprised that it is not more common.

If I can hinge moun then I can make the trunk lid lighter.

Not really, the stock hinge mount are strong enough, so you don’t need a custom trunk brace to mount a wing.

The only downside is losing trunk access without extra work. But since we’re both installing a carbon fiber skin, we’ll have quick-release latches anyway, so it’s no big deal.

I do have a few ideas…

Option 1: Build uprights that bolt directly to the existing trunk hinge mounts. By matching the chassis bend angles to fit between the trunk and 1/4 panel gap, the wing attaches straight to the mount location hardware. No extra bracing needed.

Option 2: Fab simple standoffs that tie into the hinge mounts location. The upright then bolts to those spacers (see attached photo). You still use the hinge fasteners, but the standoffs give you clearance for the trunk to be open, when the wing is removed.

both options require trunk trimming of course... and option 2 you can just unmount the wing uprights to gain access to the trunk. Option 1, you'd have to make the uprights bend outward a bit away from the trunk, so you can unlatch it and pick it up an pull it out.

the white trunk shown in the attached image, is the direct upright to hinge mount location (option 1)

the red M3 shows the stand offs method (option 2)

Option 2, shows how you'd have to bend the wing uprights for Option 1 to work.

[F4rmost]

I am absolutely not an expert, but just kind of throwing ideas out there - could you make a 2 piece mount - kind of a combination of Kolosy's mount and a chassis mount. The bracket underneath would be mounted to the chassis and the upper bracket would be a separate piece with an ear that would touch or be extremely close to touching the lower bracket. That way, when force is applied, it gets applied to the lower bracket and becomes rigid. I guess the hardest part would be keeping the skin of the trunk from bending inwards when force is applied directly down.

I am sure it has been tried before and for one reason or another has not worked, but at least it could possibly keep the trunk functional. If it's a race car it really doesn't matter though.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by F4rmost

I am absolutely not an expert, but just kind of throwing ideas out there - could you make a 2 piece mount - kind of a combination of Kolosy's mount and a chassis mount. The bracket underneath would be mounted to the chassis and the upper bracket would be a separate piece with an ear that would touch or be extremely close to touching the lower bracket. That way, when force is applied, it gets applied to the lower bracket and becomes rigid. I guess the hardest part would be keeping the skin of the trunk from bending inwards when force is applied directly down.

I am sure it has been tried before and for one reason or another has not worked, but at least it could possibly keep the trunk functional. If it's a race car it really doesn't matter though.

I ended up adding a hard bump stop at the latch point, and that seems to do well. I can basically hang my full body weight on the spoiler this way.
(The pic is from when I was making sure it was aligned, I’m using two like that)

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

Option 1: Build uprights that bolt directly to the existing trunk hinge mounts. By matching the chassis bend angles to fit between the trunk and 1/4 panel gap, the wing attaches straight to the mount location hardware. No extra bracing needed.

Option 2: Fab simple standoffs that tie into the hinge mounts location. The upright then bolts to those spacers (see attached photo). You still use the hinge fasteners, but the standoffs give you clearance for the trunk to be open, when the wing is removed.

Zebullon might have the hinge mount adaptors. I got them for my E46. The hinge mounting points aren't perpendicular to the wing. So there is an offset angle to get the uprights perpendicular to the direction of travel. I know I don't have the fabrication expertise or tools to get it right.

I think they were $400. At first, I was like are they made of gold? But when I thought about it I certainly would have spent a LOT of time getting it perfect. $$$ well spent in my case...as much as spending money on a track car will ever make

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Zebullon might have the hinge mount adaptors. I got them for my E46. The hinge mounting points aren't perpendicular to the wing. So there is an offset angle to get the uprights perpendicular to the direction of travel. I know I don't have the fabrication expertise or tools to get it right.

I think they were $400. At first, I was like are they made of gold? But when I thought about it I certainly would have spent a LOT of time getting it perfect. $$$ well spent in my case...as much as spending money on a track car will ever make

yeah they quoted me $550 for a set. i'm too cheap, i'd rather spend 2x that on 15 rounds with sendcutsend trying to get it right myself lol.

[F4rmost]

Originally Posted by kolosy

I ended up adding a hard bump stop at the latch point, and that seems to do well. I can basically hang my full body weight on the spoiler this way.
(The pic is from when I was making sure it was aligned, I’m using two like that)

Yeah! That's basically the same concept. I may bug you for those plans when it comes time for aero kolosy, if that's alright?

I would like to just get an APR gt250 (i am nowhere near the level of you guys), but can't bring myself to spend about $2k on that when 9 lives and Wing Logic exist. I would just have to figure out some decent mounts for the stands.

I probably wouldn't run anything more than a GT4 front lip, so there isn't a huge need for crazy rear aero from what I gather. The smaller 60-65" should pair well and not overpower the lip.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by kolosy

yeah they quoted me $550 for a set. i'm too cheap, i'd rather spend 2x that on 15 rounds with sendcutsend trying to get it right myself lol.

been there myself bro

I guess you can mount a straight piece of metal and get the offset angle to a forward direction of travel.

Figuring out which angle goes where...that hurts my brain thinking about it.

[kolosy]

Originally Posted by F4rmost

Yeah! That's basically the same concept. I may bug you for those plans when it comes time for aero kolosy, if that's alright?

I would like to just get an APR gt250 (i am nowhere near the level of you guys), but can't bring myself to spend about $2k on that when 9 lives and Wing Logic exist. I would just have to figure out some decent mounts for the stands.

I probably wouldn't run anything more than a GT4 front lip, so there isn't a huge need for crazy rear aero from what I gather. The smaller 60-65" should pair well and not overpower the lip.

yeah for sure. the cad file is here https://cad.onshape.com/documents/9a...9efc19953eb261, and happy to talk through it when the time comes.

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

been there myself bro

I guess you can mount a straight piece of metal and get the offset angle to a forward direction of travel.

Figuring out which angle goes where...that hurts my brain thinking about it.

my 3d printer actually helps a lot in this case. i don't think about it too much because it hurts my brain too, i just try it, print it, and see if it fits. i've had a printer for close to 10 years now, and this is the first time i've used it for printing things other than parts for the 3d printer lol.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Zebullon might have the hinge mount adaptors. I got them for my E46. The hinge mounting points aren't perpendicular to the wing. So there is an offset angle to get the uprights perpendicular to the direction of travel. I know I don't have the fabrication expertise or tools to get it right.

I think they were $400. At first, I was like are they made of gold? But when I thought about it I certainly would have spent a LOT of time getting it perfect. $$$ well spent in my case...as much as spending money on a track car will ever make

Originally Posted by kolosy

yeah they quoted me $550 for a set. i'm too cheap, i'd rather spend 2x that on 15 rounds with sendcutsend trying to get it right myself lol.

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

been there myself bro

I guess you can mount a straight piece of metal and get the offset angle to a forward direction of travel.

Figuring out which angle goes where...that hurts my brain thinking about it.

Yeah SLG offered theirs also at like $500 not worth it.

Just use some art board or cardboard and some math and you’ll get the right angles and then send it off to SCS.

Or just hand bend it with a vice, blow torch, and bend away lol