Seats or Suspension First?

[ixm3]

Originally Posted by Billj747

I disagree.

A G is a G. The better your body is held upright and in place, the better you can feel those G's and the limit of the car. Harness & Race seat > Race Seat & 3pt belt > stock seat and 3pt belt.

You don't want your body to move atall, but feel the G's of your body pressed against the vertical sides of a seat which really isn't possible in the stock M3 seat. A C63 AMG's seats are WAY better in this regard.

Have you driven in a racing seat?

We can agree to disagree.

In early HPDE, when you are strapped in tight, six points, and in a stiff, barely padded seat with head restraints, I think you are using visual cues more than anything else. By definition, you are already pressed in tight as can be, how sensitive are you to G's. You 're not pressed in tight for sensitivity, its for safety, right? Sure, less movement is great, but there are tons of people who believe race seats+harnesses should go with a cage.

Yes, I have driven in a race seat, and yes I have instructed for BMWCCA for over 15yrs, and yes I have spun and seen/ experienced plenty of other spins when the driver reacted too slowly.

Congrats on being an accomplished race car driver. With all due respect to OP, he's weighing out suspension vs. seats and is concerned about having matching seats in his very streetable car. With his big brakes, and big power, he's probably going to run out of suspension well before he runs out of seat in that beast of a car he's got.

Have fun with the build OP.

[Billj747]

Originally Posted by ixm3

We can agree to disagree.

In early HPDE, when you are strapped in tight, six points, and in a stiff, barely padded seat with head restraints, I think you are using visual cues more than anything else. By definition, you are already pressed in tight as can be, how sensitive are you to small G's. You 're not pressed in tight for sensitivity, its for safety, right? That's a great compromise, eventually.

We can agree to disagree

I was suggesting a more supportive seat like a Recaro Pole Position rather than a more compromised full race seat with very high sills and head surrounds.

IMO -when G's are dispersed over more of your body, you are held more upright and can feel the car and the limit better than a stock, unsupportive seat. It also reduces driver fatigue. With your experience level i'm surprised you feel the latter.

Originally Posted by ixm3

OP, he's weighing out suspension vs. seats and is concerned about having matching seats in his very streetable car. With his big brakes, and big power, he's probably going to run out of suspension well before he runs out of seat in that beast of a car he's got.

OP wanted to know what to do to his car, and from my original reply:

Originally Posted by Billj747

Seats with stock belts.

Stock suspension is pretty darn good and seats will do a lot to improve your driving. Now if you're an advanced driver and sliding around in factory seats is not distracting, you probably wouldn't be asking this question and would be doing the suspension anyway.

...I feel that seats will improve his driving more than suspension, while an experienced driver would benefit (laptime wise) from suspension as moving around in the seat is not as distracting.


0.02

[1MOREMOD]

I would agree with biilj, the more of your body that is in contact with the car the better of a feel you will have for what its doing. Race seat puts more of you in contact with the car.

[USCTrojanMan29]

Originally Posted by OC3

The downside is, you sometimes have to attempt it a few times to get it just right (so that it's not too loose nor too tight). With practice, you can get it right the first time.

Slide the seat back, and recline the backrest, jerk the seat belt to lock the cam but do so with just the right length of the belt stretched out, lock it into the receptacle. And, while maintaining tension on the seatbelt (so that the cam doesn't unlock/loosen), bring the backrest upright and slide the seat forward 'til you're sitting nice & close to the steering wheel and yet not being choked too tight by the seat belt.

I have seat memory button #2 programmed for this position.

I did the same trick in my adaptive non-bucket sport seats in my GT3. The CF GT3 bucket seats in the RS are great in holding me in place and are even comfortable for longer drives too, including to the track and back.

[TheKosherStogie]

What billy is saying makes complete sense but id go with suspension. Yes I get annoyed sliding around but it's nice having stock seats unless u really track tbag much. I have stock seats w/ KW and bbk and track 2 times a month. I've driven race seats and it's amazing and books on driving I've read state being secure and comfortable is the most important thing but again suspension is fun all the time and will benefit lap times more as well as being a more fun mod in my opinion. My car transformed from the suspension

[yandy]

LOL, there's a pretty big split here, but I think I'll do suspension first. Try some of the tricks and adjust driving position if necessary.

I'm not the only one that drives the car either, the Mrs likes to take it for a spin every so often. I need to think about the compromise in seats a bit more before making that move it seems.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by yandy

LOL, there's a pretty big split here, but I think I'll do suspension first. Try some of the tricks and adjust driving position if necessary.

I'm not the only one that drives the car either, the Mrs likes to take it for a spin every so often. I need to think about the compromise in seats a bit more before making that move it seems.

I think that's a good plan.

Have a look at your driving position. I'm a little confused how your legs can fly around. One should be firmly gripped by the brake or accelerator pedal and the other on the dead pedal.

Before the CG Lock or Quick-Fits I would use my leg to brace myself but they never flew around.

Maybe more squats at the gym

[timbo_3101]

yandy, just wanted to say thank you for some excellent and informative threads earlier re 1er racing.

I don't have anything particularly to add to all the voices here, given that you probably have all information at hand. For my track-prepped 1M, KW CS is necessary for me to extract full benefit and longevity from competition tyres. The Schroth Quick Fit Pro ensures I am stable while cornering. Both are uncomfortable of course, but with all the adrenaline on track, everything becomes secondary!

Progressing towards bucket seats would probably also mean that I would strip the interior - for further weight reduction - but since I still drive to events, this would be my last step in converting what is still a street-legal vehicle. Furthermore, converting the interior would make it difficult or impossible to transport all my wheels and equipment (without a trailer).

Looking forward to hearing about your progress

[yandy]

Originally Posted by dmw16

I think that's a good plan.

Have a look at your driving position. I'm a little confused how your legs can fly around. One should be firmly gripped by the brake or accelerator pedal and the other on the dead pedal.

Before the CG Lock or Quick-Fits I would use my leg to brace myself but they never flew around.

Maybe more squats at the gym

flying around is an exageration for sure. but my knees swing from side to side ever so slightly, that I need to brace myself, either at the center console or door panel.

[yandy]

Originally Posted by timbo_3101

yandy, just wanted to say thank you for some excellent and informative threads earlier re 1er racing.

I don't have anything particularly to add to all the voices here, given that you probably have all information at hand. For my track-prepped 1M, KW CS is necessary for me to extract full benefit and longevity from competition tyres. The Schroth Quick Fit Pro ensures I am stable while cornering. Both are uncomfortable of course, but with all the adrenaline on track, everything becomes secondary!

Progressing towards bucket seats would probably also mean that I would strip the interior - for further weight reduction - but since I still drive to events, this would be my last step in converting what is still a street-legal vehicle.

Looking forward to hearing about your progress

Thanks for the input, it does seem for now that suspension is the way to go. Now to decide between KW CS or RS1.

leaning towards KW CS just because it's a complete system and can't really go wrong with them, but will do more research.

[Billj747]

Sounds like you have a good plan. KW makes great stuff

[OC3]

Originally Posted by yandy

flying around is an exageration for sure. but my knees swing from side to side ever so slightly, that I need to brace myself, either at the center console or door panel.

I've been left-foot braking for a long time and, when I started tracking, I of course left-foot braked, but immediately found that, without some type of way to keep your body locked in the seat, using both legs/feet really made you feel like you're floating in your seat. So, I had to change to right-foot braking, and pushed my left foot on the footrest, my knees were bracing, and even my left elbow was bracing on the door sill (as evidenced in my early track videos). Tried CG lock for a session, but (may be I wasn't using it correctly) found it to be not very effective.

Then, I found out about the seatbelt-lock trick, and promptly went back to left-foot braking and never looked back. And, stopped browsing through for-sale section for Recaro seat.

[yandy]

Originally Posted by OC3

I've been left-foot braking for a long time and, when I started tracking, I of course left-foot braked, but immediately found that, without some type of way to keep your body locked in the seat, using both legs/feet really made you feel like you're floating in your seat. So, I had to change to right-foot braking, and pushed my left foot on the footrest, my knees were bracing, and even my left elbow was bracing on the door sill (as evidenced in my early track videos). Tried CG lock for a session, but (may be I wasn't using it correctly) found it to be not very effective.

Then, I found out about the seatbelt-lock trick, and promptly went back to left-foot braking and never looked back. And, stopped browsing through for-sale section for Recaro seat.

I recently started left foot braking as well, easy with DCT, but taking some time to fine tune , used to the clutch being a dead pedal. Which is why I'm trying to make it as stable as possible any way I can.

[bigjae1976]

A suspension will immediately lead to faster lap times.

Seats will lead to faster skill development.

So it's really a choice of fast now or faster later on.

[Triple M]

Originally Posted by Billj747

Seats with stock belts.

Stock suspension is pretty darn good and seats will do a lot to improve your driving. Now if you're an advanced driver and sliding around in factory seats is not distracting, you probably wouldn't be asking this question and would be doing the suspension anyway.

I don't believe in the whole "you MUST USE harnesses and harness bars when you use a racing seat" mentality. Porsche uses race seats in their GT3/GT2/Carrera GT cars, Honda used race seats in their NSX-R, and all of these cars run standard 3pt belts without roll bars & harnesses. If you have a harness, you need a roll bar, but those have nothing to do with your seats.

IMO I really like the Recaro Pole Position seats. The leather quality and design fits well in a BMW, has great side bolsters, but not stupid high bolsters (like some true racing seats) which greatly hurts it's streetability.


0.02

+1
EAS posted a DIY video few years back of pole position seat installation using oem 3 point seatbelt. Plus a nice weight loss in the process

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by Triple M

+1
EAS posted a DIY video few years back of pole position seat installation using oem 3 point seatbelt. Plus a nice weight loss in the process

[STALKER]

I had both KW CS and the RS1s. The RS1s are a far superior product, def the way to go.

Also, since the RS1 is a SA shock, if you don't have much experience in suspension tuning it allows you to focus more on your driving then suspension tuning, which is an art in itself.

Get the RS1s.

[Billj747]

Originally Posted by STALKER

I had both KW CS and the RS1s. The RS1s are a far superior product, def the way to go.

Also, since the RS1 is a SA shock, if you don't have much experience in suspension tuning it allows you to focus more on your driving then suspension tuning, which is an art in itself.

Get the RS1s.

Can't really go wrong with either. KWs are great dampers and have baseline recommendations for shock setting so you really can't get too lost if you stay near that.

[STALKER]

Originally Posted by Billj747

Can't really go wrong with either. KWs are great dampers and have baseline recommendations for shock setting so you really can't get too lost if you stay near that.

KW is just OK, the RS1s are def superior. The RS1 damper settles much faster and is never harsh, even on its harder settings, can't say the same for the KWs. I used them as DD and a lot of track days.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Z K

If you are planning to do a lot of track days, do seats. At the track, I don't like that I have to brace my whole body with the steering wheel and the door panel when cornering to keep myself from falling out of the seat. The factory seats have almost no bolstering and support.

Try flipping a car with a fixed back seat and a harmess with no cage. The car crushes and you stay secure in place. Will most likely die.

Do it properly if you are going to get seats yandy.

[yandy]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

A suspension will immediately lead to faster lap times.

Seats will lead to faster skill development.

So it's really a choice of fast now or faster later on.

I "faster laptimes due to skill" > "lap times due to helpers"

That said, they'll both help in their own way, but thinking of comfort and drive-ability for now as others have mentioned.

Originally Posted by Billj747

Can't really go wrong with either. KWs are great dampers and have baseline recommendations for shock setting so you really can't get too lost if you stay near that.

Originally Posted by STALKER

KW is just OK, the RS1s are def superior. The RS1 damper settles much faster and is never harsh, even on its harder settings, can't say the same for the KWs. I used them as DD and a lot of track days.

KW CS is a complete system though, which would save me allot of time in figuring out which springs, and camber plates. Though that could be easy to figure out, not sure I can really drive at any levels to out-drive either of those suspensions.

By out-drive I mean, going faster than the suspension can give me. Either way, I'm not sold on one over the other, it's going to come down on price vs performance vs justification of cost vs use, so some time to think about it still.

Originally Posted by pkim1079

Try flipping a car with a fixed back seat and a harmess with no cage. The car crushes and you stay secure in place. Will most likely die.

Do it properly if you are going to get seats yandy.

Hopefully, I won't be flipping the damn thing any time soon.. lol, just hopefully.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by yandy

Hopefully, I won't be flipping the damn thing any time soon.. lol, just hopefully.

best to be prepared for the unexpected. like the guy in the other thread worried about extra hooker storage space in his trunk.