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02-17-2011, 04:25 PM | #45 | |
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02-17-2011, 04:27 PM | #46 | |
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Are both of these vehicles very capable track cars...yes...can either of these vehicles be turned into a dedicated track car...yes....are either vehicles dedicated track cars off of the lot...no.
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02-17-2011, 04:32 PM | #47 | |
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Well, that Cayman has ceramics, which are an option, albeit an $8K option. So, yes, you can get it from the dealer with them installed, but I have to wonder what the M would do with ceramics (of course, then it's modified - I'm killing my argument). All I'm saying is that you can't say that the M isn't a track car (better yet, a car designed with tracking in mind) and then right afterward say that the Cayman S is a track car. Of course the M weighs more, but honestly, I personally believe that it disguises that weight quite well at speed and turn-in due to its weight distribution and gutteral high RPM speed.
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02-17-2011, 04:34 PM | #48 |
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Spend 8K and get a top shelf shifter cart.Take up to the streets of willow for a track day and you'll never think about a lotus again LoL.
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02-17-2011, 04:38 PM | #49 | |
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02-17-2011, 04:42 PM | #50 | |
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-As to the flatness of a turbo torque curve - sure it can be tailored to be flat but it seem often in practice it is not achieved. -mpg: Turbos of the same peak power level, all else being equal will be better than NA. In general lower torque, high redline NA engines are accompanied by gearing that has relatively high rpm/mph at cruise this contributes to poor mpg. The S2000 has good mpg compared to what. Certainly its weight and aero contribute to it OK mpg. The E46 M3 mpg is not very good either, not far from the E92. It is even worse when considering its displacement. -Redline: For BMW their turbos are limited by their use of valvetronic. Its response time can not support high redline. valvetronic help reduce turbo lag but also hinders in other ways. The typical strong midrange and weak top end is typical in turbos and that gives a car a much more GT feel and less of the race bred feel. -Reliability: I'd like to look at some long term large reliability data sets. I'm sure there is a pretty clear answer on relative reliability there. My suspicion is that overall one would find less reliability in street cars with turbos. Of course that is not an intrinsic weakness (think large freight trucks and off road heavy equipment) but a real, in practice one. Clutched blowers is a cool concept, what cars use/have used it. Did they offer good fuel efficiency?
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02-17-2011, 04:44 PM | #51 | |
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Cayman S + Ceramics = 8:04 Many automotive journalists and articles that I have read disagree with your sentiments. They claim that the M is a track car with everyday utilities. For arguments sake: The Cayman S is not a track car; it weighs 3,100 pounds. The Lotus Exige S IS a track car at 2,061 pounds....or screw it all...none of them are track vehicles when compared to my Ducati, which weighs in at 368 pounds with 170 Hp.
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02-17-2011, 04:44 PM | #52 |
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Hell even a cheap beat up non-shifter at any tight cart track is a whole other world compared to any street car.
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02-17-2011, 04:58 PM | #53 |
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02-17-2011, 05:08 PM | #54 | |
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From everything that I've read, plus what I've heard from my riding group, the Ducati Superbikes are horrible as DD's. If you plan on doing quite a bit of tracking/hard canyon riding...go for it...if not, there are more comfortable options (your bike for instance). Okay....much apologies OP!
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02-17-2011, 05:20 PM | #55 | |
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02-17-2011, 05:49 PM | #56 |
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Was comparing the pics of NA vs. FI and became disoriented...it happens to the best of us!
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02-17-2011, 05:52 PM | #57 |
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fi vs na
then m3 is a track car vs isn't a track car and m3 vs cayman s then cayman s vs cayman s with ceramic brakes lol
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02-17-2011, 06:18 PM | #58 |
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02-17-2011, 06:42 PM | #59 |
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02-17-2011, 07:55 PM | #60 |
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I'd like a lot of things, but I usually start off the request with please.
Grunt (non-qualified) is the character of the engine at low rpms under liberal throttle. So "good" low-end grunt is the character of an engine to produce strong pulling power even at lower rpms in a gear taller than optimal for generating the most force given the current vehicle speed and engine rpm. To use torque in place of low-end grunt is to suggest the character of the engine is biased toward the lower end. A Ducati 4V (per head) V-twin is an example of an engine with strong low-end grunt and an equally strong midrange and upper end punch. Although some would say its main character is low-end grunt, which simply isn't true.
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02-17-2011, 07:57 PM | #61 | |
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I suppose you could define lag many ways. I could say that the S65 in my E90 M3 has lag because I feel significant power only at high rpm. I could say the N54 in my E61 535 has no lag because I feel significant power anytime I put my foot down. I have owned and driven them all -- centrifugal supercharger, turbocharger, and high revving naturally aspirated. The one with the power curve I like most is my turbo E36 M3. I am well versed in lag, having owned turbo cars since 1988 and driven hundreds of thousands of miles in them, with a variety of stock and aftermarket turbo. You don't see much of it with today's turbos. The old "wait for the boost" days have long passed. There are a lot of impressive turbo engines out there and the N54 is definitely one of them. Grassroots Motorsports took a 335i and made minor engine and suspension mods and equaled an E90 M3 around a road course, with James Clay driving both. Clay commented that the 335i pulled harder out of the corners than the M3. He had no complaints about lag. |
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02-17-2011, 07:58 PM | #62 | |
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If slower around the track is what one wants, the Cayman S is the ticket rather than the M3. Lap Times (24) Track Cayman S M3 (E92) Nordschleife 8:11.00 8:05.00 Tsukuba 1:13.50 vw 1:05.70 Hockenheim Short 1:15.50 1:14.00 Vairano Handling Course 1:23.45 1:20.10 Bedford Autodrome West Circuit (2004 - 06/2008) 1:26.85 1:26.60 Oschersleben 1:47.90 1:47.20 Laguna Seca 1:47.58 1:42.96 Virginia International Raceway 3:09.50 3:05.40 Zolder 1:52.82 1:49.31 Autozeitung test track 1:41.20 1:40.10 Balocco 2:55.09 2:55.22 Bedford Autodrome East Circuit 1:08.10 1:07.10 Contidrom 1:37.55 1:35.11 SportAuto wet handling test 1:29.10 1:32.40 Bedford aut.wet handling test 0:55.35 0:54.50 Serres Racing Circuit 1:35.25 1:33.05 Willow Springs - Streets of Willow 1:28.91 1:27.67 Inta 1:12.02 1:12.36 Autocar Wet Handling Track 1:12.10 1:16.90 Anglesey National 1:04.30 1:03.90 Circuit de Nevers Magny-Cours Club 1:28.35 w 1:27.40 Gotland Ring (Northern Loop) 1:36.80 1:36.30 Ring Knutstrop (Conf 2) 1:16.00 1:15.60 ADM Miachkovo 1:59.15 1:56.27 Specs Max speed 275 kph 280 kph 0 - 100 kph 5.1 s 4.3 s 0 - 100 mph 11.6 s 9.4 s 0 - 200 kph 18.8 s 15.2 s 1/4 mile 13.2 s @ 106 mph 12.4 s @ 114 mph 1/8 mile (est) 8.9 s @ 87 mph 8.4 s @ 93 mph Power/weight ratio 207 bhp/tonne 256 bhp/tonne Summary Discipline Cayman S M3 (E92) Track Performance 43 points 229 points Straight line speed 227 points 260 points Total 270 489 The verdictBMW M3 (E92) is noticeably faster. http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso...mw_m3_e92.html
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02-17-2011, 08:10 PM | #63 |
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I can not believe that most people keep mentioning how good NA M3 engine is on track. I bet my next 1 year pay check that 90% M3 owners have never been to track in their life time. Also most of M3 success at the track is due to its handling, not because it has teh greatest engine in the world.
Can anyone argue that M3 with C63 engine would be ten times better car at track and in DD than normal M3??? Who cares how it behaves on track if yon't track it, or track it once or twice a year. Most of us use our cars as DD. Argument should be which engine is better on aggressive daily driving. Just my 0.2c... |
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02-17-2011, 08:14 PM | #64 | |
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02-17-2011, 09:25 PM | #65 | |
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02-17-2011, 09:27 PM | #66 |
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Look at my signature. Lamborghini said it all. Nothing else to say.
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""A great sounding, responsive, high-revving, naturally aspirated engine is part of the DNA of a thoroughbred sports car. No two ways about it."
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